Finally...something we can talk about

 

Painted Wheels Vs. Chrome Wheels...the next big controversy!

 

 

Some interesting theoretical points are starting to appear. Now for some questions; would Dyno results have changed if we had done the testing with the hood down in it's closed position? Would this simulate diving better. Who drives with their hood open, so why does everyone do Dyno pulls with the hood open? Isn't it,in this case, giving unfair advantage to an intake that would otherwise have to suck air from the base of the windshield?

 

@JS

I've read of a few people who have done dyno runs with bonnets open and closed. In real world terms the difference was hardly worth the effort; ie, there was no real difference to the numbers on the dyno whether the bonnet was open or closed. From memory it was less than 1hp.

A dyno will never provide an exact replica of driving on the road. The best you can hope for is to reduce the amount of variables in between comparative runs.

I reckon these guys have done that as well as can be expected.

But there was always going to be a shtfight over the numbers because that's how dyno charts and forums work ... it's just the way it is.

 

it's a bit hard to see in the photo, but my wheels are drak gray, with a bit of metal flake. but none the less i tell all my customers that a dark wheel makes them go faster.

 

so the test doesn't matter for my car!

Matt

And run with no filter, the ultimate, short term, intake mod!

 

I think my silver wheels spin faster than your grey ones !

 

Black wheels beat all

 

First of all I would like to thank all those participants in this testing procedure. It is nice to see the Mini community come together for a common goal. With that in mind we would like to offer a 10$ discount on any M7 product to all those that sent in money to Msftoy for this project.
My goal is not to dispute any of the findings but to perhaps explain our take on the results. We had hoped that this test would be a true apples to apples test but when the results of all of our runs were factored in that was not the case. These quotes were from others in the thread that found that when only comparing the first 3 AGS with all the other products 3 runs ,apples to apples so to speak. As noted by 62 Lincoln "Has anyone noticed the torque numbers? Taking the average of the first three runs of each alternative (as suggested by one of the testers, forget who said it), the M7 is highest at 147, Alta is second at 146, and Pilo is third at 145.5. For H.P someone also noted " AGS hp matched Pilo exactly at 154.6 and the torque was 147 vs. 146 Alta."
Additionally there is some feeling by the testers themselves that the Pilo results were not necessarily valid for a few reasons. I have nothing against Pilo, I even have one of his products on my car, but this is what the testers felt.
The AGS was designed to relieve what we found to be a blockage in the intake of fuel and air into the engine on modified minis. The most common mod, one which we always recommended even before we had our own unit for sale was the pulley upgrade. Now whether it is 15, 16 ,17 or 19 and if you have a larger crank pulley as well it all adds up.The higher the amount of flow trying to get thru the labyrinth which is the stock air tube the more restrictive it becomes and the more effective ours is . If you look at the photos of both pieces end to end you will see what I am talking about. My point is here that by testing our system on a stock pulley'd car we are out of our element design wise.Yes it will work and quite well as the numbers show but it will work better as the flow increases. We know it flows 21% better than the stock tube as was proven independently quite awhile ago. At the flow levels of the stock pulley the design improvement is not as noticeable as it is when there is more flow . We feel that with a 15% or greater pulley the AGS would have shown a bigger difference . Additionally those with more extensive mods such as head work, header and exhaust will also notice a greater benefit from the AGS. Let me be the one to say it plainly, the AGS was never designed to be your first mod.
Another critical item which was over looked and this is our mistake is the opening for the air intake thru the radiator surround was not enlarged which is something we have done on all our cars . Msftoy did it to his intuitively and it almost doubles the amount of air allowed into the filter area. Our mistake is that we have told everyone about this mod but neglected to put it into the online instruction manual. The car tested was using the stock opening but in reality the AGS needs and responds well to the larger intake opening.
As I started out we are not disputing the numbers only trying to show how easily things could have come out looking a lot different.

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

What happened in the second run of mine. That really seems to be throwing my Numbers Way Low.. the other 2 are 8HP Higher? Just curious

 

No matter how many pulls, the measurement noise remains! But it would be nice to see all the graphs, we could see if the RPMs all stopped at the same point, or if it looked like timing retard kicked in (from the kink in the HP curves) and the like... I guess we'll know more when the rest of the data is released...

I've found that getting good numbers is really, really hard.

Matt

 

I volunteer my car if I can get help in Atlanta and I need a few intakes to test. My car is far from stock......I have an Alta on the car....or I will donate $ to do it again on someone elses "modded" car.

 

I will give a good-faith donation of 10 towards that test. If I wasn't so far from everyone, including mechanics I trust, I'd offer my Cosworth car. Let me know. :smile:

 

Okay, so your testing shows the tube (one component of the intake) flows 21% better than the stock tube. How does the flow of the entire intake compare to stock, or to the Pilo or Alta? From the dyno results here, it looks like it flows worse than the Alta, possibly due to your much smaller filter area. Do you have testing that indicates otherwise?

Also, did you see my post earlier in this thread showing the very, very slight difference in upstream pressure between the stock and 15% pullies using the stock intake. Does your testing show a different scenario? I have trouble picturing a situation where the Alta outflows your intake with the stock pulley but not with a 15%.

 

So the real question is, do my silver wheels with a thick layer of *black* brake dust make as much HP as painted black wheels?

 

poseur!

 

10$'s again, im in also! --

hey i did hear about that "Cosworth" car U have how's it pullin' any feed back will do.

 

--have these Questions??? been answered yet, i did not see it any where

mayb i missed it! correct me if im wrong....

 

I thought for sure I had read that there was a possibility that the dyno operator may not have reached the the same max rpm on a few of the later runs. If that's the case those runs would likely not be valid for determining a peak HP.

I can't find that post now, so I could be mistaken. Once the details for each run are published, we'll know for sure.

 

I think that was only posted as a theory by someone not involved with the testing ... I think. :impatient

 

We will! ******hey sid did U get me check maan!!

 

I get the feeling this testing is going to continue & continue until the AGS fans get the result they are after

 

since we are dealing with very small pressure drop differences, on the order of tenth(s) of a psi or so, causing these horsepower differences, i still wonder whether testing an alta/pilo style intake with the hood open gives a fair comparison to the stock and ags designs; opening the hood removes a large portion of the airbox walls of the alta/pilo design. YES i know the alta/pilo back is open, but since the haggling is over a small horsepower/pressure loss, the open top could have an effect.

i'd pay to see this, a stock intake with the backwall opened, and the HAI tested.

 

I see everybody but one person blew off my earlier comment about the whole exhaust system from manifold to muffler being the bottleneck in the system. Again, if you can't get enough air out, how are you going to get it in?

As you increase the air being forced into the engine through pulley reductions, your need to scavenge the cylinder efficiently, and effectively draw in more air is more necesary than ever.

Could it be that even though the AGS flows better on its own, it can't in the car it was tested on because of other variables like exhaust?