Examples, IMHO, from this thread calling for less data:

 

And how exactly is calling me names (in violation of forum rules) helpful to this thread?

 

It's a good thing you're thick-skinned.

It's also something that happens when posters start making snide remarks. Escalation. The anonymity of the 'net. All part of it. We need to police ourselves, right?

 

I was talking about many other threads...mostly concerning M7...but im not going to say all, because i am not sure. There is none in here, but in any other thread where numbers come into questions, you ask, and when you dont get your answers resort to jokes at other's expense.

Also, my post was not aimed at just you, there are lots of what i call "whiners" here

 

I dont see where any of those ask for LESS...many of them challenge the VALUE of the numbers given by vendors but none of them ask for the removal of any numbers, or ask for numbers to be hidden.In many cases, no numbers are given...how can someone ask for less in those situations.

And learn to lead by example....if you dont want people calling you names or challenging you, stop acting that way yourself...it will work well

 

Ok, help me out here.
How is asking for test results which have reportedly been done, showing a particular product is 'the best' in any way 'bashing'?

Andy, without a doubt, gets into the nitty gritty about data and IMO, sometimes nitpicks. But this thread, and this whole issue is about basic, base level test results.

You only have to look up the number of 'turbonator', 'vornado' and '20 HP module' threads to realize that people sell snake oil, often based on fancy sounding concepts. The only 'defense' against snake oil is testing and results, and yes, those results have to be defended, too.

Alternatively, if a vendor says "I have this new product, and it may or may not add any performance to your car, but you should buy it", well they haven't made any claims, they've only asked you to buy their stuff. Fair enough.

As soon as they say "mine is better than brand X (or stock)", is it not reasonable to ask WHY it's better, or if any results confirm the claim? Or do we write it all off to puffery, say everything is fair game (for the vendor, not the consumer) and hope for the best?

As I said in an earlier post, I think the title of the thread is erroneous. There is no such thing as proof (too many variables), but there are lots of pieces of evidence that can be used to show a part works beyond claiming 'it works'.

 

how was this thread helpful to begin with? Just making complaints that have been made before many times wont get you anywhere. You are at the step where this thread should be offering suggestions of what you(or others) will do to help the problem instead of dwelling on announcing the problem that you have already made very obvious.

cheers

 

Eric, please read my post on the other page. I'm fine with him asking for numbers...i would do it too if andy wasnt always there right away asking as we all expect from him at this point ( a good thing )

The bashing comes later when no numbers are given. He has a very under-toned way of bashing vendors and making jokes at their expense...that is the bashing many people are talking about

 

This thread was helpful enough to you that you chose to reply to it several times to participate. Please re-read my posts to see what this thread is about.

 

I dont know how helpful it is based on me responding...i'm just bored between classes and love a good debate I still dont see where its helping. I have read through it :smile:

 

I guess I should restate my point. Regardless of whether or not you personally find any thread helpful, make a post that violates the forum rules by calling names is definitely not helpful.

 

agreed...i was just wondering what was being helped by this thread....just sounds like a poll of who wants numbers to me...and we've seen that its a large majority many times before...just curious...which isnt a bad thing every now and then

 

Andy, what track are we suppose to follow? You only stated:

Maybe this makes better sense as a poll, then a thread. Since you only want a show of hands, a poll gives simple yes or no. The way this thread was started it is just asking to be locked, since there was no real direction and all that will come about from this is either vendor bashing, which Mark won't allow, or name calling (which we have already seen directed at you), which Mark won't allow. Did you want more information than what a poll offers? For example, which vendors are doing a bad, which products do we feel aren't tested properly, what types of testing we would like to see? I think better direction from you would help keep the post on some form of a topic and keep it from getting locked (and maybe provide some positive effect).

As far as the hand raising, I raise my hand for better testing. I won't purchase a product unless I am confident of the testing.

 

Wanting less...

Many just want what's truly helpful, only. And if it's not, it becomes convoluted information. This is especially so when such data is delivered to us in some scientific format to aid us in our decision-making process. Bad information cloaked in the scientific method is worse than no numbers at all. It not only can mislead those who trust it, I feel that it is also a disservice to the beauty of science. Some things just deserve to be done right...

In the legal field, during discovery, when the opposition must share all relevant materials, it is not uncommon for them to provide an extra 100 boxes of knowingly useless papers also. While this is by design to not make it easy for them to find the "meat," the point is... just more informaton is not the solution, and it can very well be a detriment.

In theory, I'm all for the intent here - to prove that something works. In reality, minus the vaccum and with gravity, it can't be carried-out to an end to where it can serve us in the commendable way hoped. The decision-making process needs to operate within the environment it finds itself...

Man, I'm starting to feel winded, and with that, I'm out.

 

As a relative newcommer with NO mods to my 05 MCS i see no point to this thread. Its like asking who wants to breathe. Of course people want to see proof, and of course people are going to buy products based on word of mouth or less than reputable claims by less than reputable vendors. The bottom line is, if you want proof before you buy and can't find any, don't buy it.
I've been scanning around for a few months now, and the relationship between several vendors here is vitriolic at best - Andy, why don't you take the high road and stop this type of post. Let the AGS work itself out, it will work or it wont. I suppose you're trying to disprove the old fool and his money adage, but I seriously doubt you're going to disuade the "early adoptor" crowd.
I'm sorry if I upset anybody with this, but I think its time we put away the rulers and zipped up our pants.
Joey

 

The purpose of this thread was to have a discussion (unrelated to a specific performance part) to see who values testing data rather than relying on unsubstantiated vendor claims. IMHO, there has been some good discussion and points that have not surfaced before, which have fleshed out several participants' views on the subject.

 

It seems to me that enough people here sill hook their cars up to a dyno and post USER numbers rather than VENDOR numbers, and that those are the ones to look for. With the wildly different #'s on factory stock cars it seems that it would be pretty easy to for vendors to make unrealistic claims.

 

Why are you replying to a "pointless" thread? :smile:

 

This really is a pointless thread as it really comes down to wether you are an early adopter or not. I think it is important to also respect early adopters even if they don't think as you do. Most companies realize that you market differently to the early adopter. To this group you must expain the idea, goals and technology etc. that make up the new product. Early adopters will understand this and will try a new product before there is much in the way of proven reslults. Once you have your early adopters you can start gathering proven successes that are needed to market to the mainstream buyer who need much more proof. Early adopters are not stupid buyers that will just buy anything as sugested in the begining of this thread. They are usually pretty smart people that can grasp the ideas and technology behind a product. They usually won't buy without feeling comfortable that they have this understanding. Early adopters want to be on the leading edge, but not the bleeding edge. Many new products fail because they don't understand that you have to market differently to these groups. There is a great book titled "The Marketing Chasim, Why new products Fail".

 

Why are you so antagonistic? Because sombody called you on a thinly veiled attack?

 

Please only reply to this thread if you are not calling names or simply denouncing the thread as "pointless".

 

Andy, with this statement, that you started this thead with, you insulted the early adopters and should expect some comments. I know you are a very smart guy but you act as though anyone not thinking like you must be ignorant or plain stupid. Sometime between Physics books, you should try to read some marketing books so you can have a better understanding of the different buyer types.

 

Because its fun, and costs no money

 

I have an MBA. That has nothing to do with this thread.

 

Again, put away the ruler and zip up. Nobody cares about your MBA. Please stop trying to stifle the free exchange ideas by stipulating who can respond to this nonsense. You don't really think that anybody is fooled by this do you? 5 Pages of and "me too" and "I do" is as pointless as people taking orders on parts that have not even been produced much less tested. You have been after the AGS for ages, perhaps rightfully so - let it go and maybe you can say "I told you so" in another pointless thread.