Andy, even if a vendor did post numbers you would still question them and doubt them.... You should start a thread entitled:

Who thinks every product should be sent to Andy to be tested?

That would make you happy, right?

 

what's wrong with questions and doubt... maybe then people wouldn't be so apt to buy crap... just a thought

 

I think this is a great idea....
it will stop some of the foolishness

 

I disagree. Even if a vendor puts up numbers, most of them are "best case" numbers and usually cant be duplicated. What is needed for a reliable product that does what it says is that product used over and over in the market. If a vendor says XX gains and some guy with 3 other mods, at sea level says I got X gains...what does that prove?

I still think that "numbers" or "proof" are a joke when it comes to vendors numbers. Granted, it's nice when a vendor goes through the trouble of some dyno days to show me why his part puts up better numbers than another vendors part...but thats just sales. Almost every major intake vendor (aem, injen, J's etc.) in the Honda world says their intakes put up the best #'s. So what does that prove? Nada.

People can call drivers who plunk down cash on a new item "sheep", but without their experiences and acceptance that product would never be accepted or rejected in the market. Numbers on a website don't "prove" anything.

 

numbers on paper do... well they don't prove asmuch as they state a firm standing, a commitment if you will, commitment is better than opinion, we all know the companies pad the numbers

 

For me, if a part is making use of a new or different technology, or if the supposed gains are are being achieved in a much different way than what we are accustomed, I would be inclined to want to see some proof.

However, if a product is simply making use of tried-and-true principles for which we know work, I'm perfectly fine with an explanation as to the attributes that make something an improvement. Provide the features, and correlate those to benefits. Vendors are in business to sell product. And consumers are looking to satiate a need/want, in our case, a desire for more performance. That is the essence...

Some will buy the "best" at any cost. Others will buy the "best" that they can afford, and still others will see that the "best" is simply what delivers the most bang-for-the-buck. Good vendors recognize this, and offer products to satisfy such an array of what might be deemed the "best". Just something to be kept-in-mind in this discussion...

The aftermkt products on my MCS came with claims to entice me to buy them. The vast majority of these were subjective in nature, as opposed to data. Given how I feel, proof for many of these lies in the concepts that have been utilized over time...

A part that proves to work moderately well on a stock vehicle, might really excel on one that is more modifed, or vice versa. A manufacturer might tailor a product to work exceptionally well with his own supporting products, but this might not be so with similar mods from another maker. Proof on a test car might not translate equally in other instances (different cars). A certain testing machine and/or procedure might show proof of some degree, while another might show something much different. And most importantly to some, with consumers buying on performance, vendors/tuners are going to feel compelled to show just that; and hopefully not to the point of exageration.

An analysis done without proper controls and ethics will yield results that are not trustworthy. And proof without replication is hardly proof. The proving of something can be very complicated given the dynamics involved here. And for that reason, I only seek proof when a product is said to deliver gains in some new, or unique way...

 

 

Dpilgrim installed a pulley on his 02 MCS around 30K miles and he’s now at 127K. That’s getting pretty darn close to having a pulley on for 100K. He’s had a couple maintenance problems, but none were pulley related.

 

[QUOTE=sndwave]Dpilgrim installed a pulley on his 02 MCS around 30K miles and he’s now at 127K.

I thought he had a SC pulley, not a crank pulley?

There are some on this board for whom the data is never enough. Bhp vs SAE, etc. The bottom line is caveat emptor.

 

[QUOTE=Veni_Vidi_Vici]I stand corrected - you are right. Sorry.

 

of course, i'm in......but what's the purpose of this poll?

 

as a professional engineer, i disagree completely with regard to virtually all the mini products that have been seriously challenged on this forum: there are relatively simple, repeatable tests for intake flow, chassis deflection vis-a vis strut bars, ignition components, and exhausts. just because the vendors don't do them in a controlled manner, do them in a misleading manner, or don't do them at all doesn't mean they can't be done objectively. the science and engineering that your life depends on is founded on the ability to do this type of testing; the vendors just don't always do it.........

 

So are you saying that you just spend money on products that have no proof..just cause I have this retorencabulator that I'll sell ya for $250.00 it's great!! it'll do something I promise...

In this day and age the #s prove alot....let's say the vendor has a strong Mini like mine....the car stock made 20 - 30 hp at the wheels stock over most minis....but a good vendor knows that and accounts for it...stating that the product will make X hp differnce...

this is why when I see that some one says they have the JCW 210 BHP I feel bad for them...the JCW was never intended to be 210 at the wheels....second...that 210 is only if you have the EXACT HP that the factory said you would at the crank...most do not...

However, no matter what HP you had...if you add a JCW kit you will get Xhp increase over whatever you stock HP was....and that's why the #s prove...there is an average HP gain...personally I would like to know the average, best, or even the worst, before I purchase a product

 

I agree, This is why the JCW cost is high. proper R&D costs some time and money. egnough time and money that manufacturers have determined that it isn't profitable to get into the market themselves.

 

I think this is the crux of the problem. Do you think they are not aware of them or choose not to do them? I think a little time spent doing these kinds of tests would cost a lot less in the long run given the amount of time the vendor would save on spending defending vapor data on NAM.

And I assume the butt dyno is not a valid piece of testing equipment?

 

nothing is wrong with questions...but when it reaches doubt and skepticism, you begintaking life too seriously. Why the need to be bashing a vendor? If they dont offer the numbers you want...move on. If you are not satisfied by a product sold at a store, do you hassle the manager to tell you more about it? No, you just dont buy it, maybe you go somewhere else to get it. If you see an ad on TV that seems to be exaggerating effects(lol there are enough of those arent there? ) do you sit and continually write letters to the owner of that company, or do you laugh to yourself and then forget it later?

A while ago Burger king was advertising the best fries of all the top fast food companies. Did you continue to hassle and bash the owner of burger king to get the exact numbers and environment stats of the poll to prove that? Ask for pie grapsh etc? I highly doubt it. I think Burger king has the worst fries of all of them, and even when i heard that, i sorta smiled and then moved on and continued eating the fries i liked best. If what M7 is offering isnt enough for you, go to a different vendor and stop whining about it. If he doesnt offer the numbers, and you want them....thats tough, go get another company's stuff, why sit and bash him? No one is forcing you to get one certain product. I'm not going to force Andy to buy the AGS...If he is unhappy with the lack of numbers, why not stop bashing and just stick with his HAI that he has(if thats what he's still running)? I understand that you are trying to "encourage vendors to show numbers" but why not do that in all aspects of life then? Start harassing Burger king, and wal*mart etc. It makes less sense to bash the vendors that are so close to our very small MINI cummunity, they are struggling to get products out to us...give them a break.

Just some random babble....my two cents rather...take it for the little amount its worth...cheers

 

 

Did you really want us to start another thread arguing our position against a pure "numbers only" purchase?

I'm not saying that you blindly buy every part that comes on the market, you have to use some common sense when buying a new product w/o any market support/distain yet.

The point I'm trying to make is that most vendors are apt to fib a bit about their numbers, some are apt to fib a lot about their numbers...which makes numbers pointless.

Who are you expecting to get these numbers from? The only source I would trust them from is other drivers, in different situations, who have real world experience/testing of an item. Granted...it's nice to see numbers from a vendor, but those numbers usually never convince me to buy that product. What does is the quality of the vendors other parts, their reputation in the industry (gained from other drivers using their products, not the numbers they put on a website), and the testamonials from other drivers about how well that product works. Personally if your only buying a product because of a vendors numbers, I would consider you the sucker.

 

That's not a fair representation of the issue here. If it was only about numbers, then anybody could generate a cost per hp chart and see what product gives the best bang for the buck. The real question is how are the numbers generated? Did the vendor pull it out of his **** or did he perform a well documented test with repeatable results? Any vendor that makes quality parts and has a good reputation should be able to provide objective proof of the benefit of their product.

 

I'd need proof that something works before I buy it too, great thread Andy. All of your knowledge has paid off.

 

i agree with this statement! since Andy who i sincerely trust and admire is sometimes looked at on this board as the end all to numbers and info. we all know he is VERY knowledgable, but i'm sure even Andy and his numbers can be flawed sometimes. nothing's ever perfect.

 

I'd trust Andy's #'s too and mentioned sending something to him for testing, something from M7 even, but he drops this whole " I'm not having anything to do with this Hostile vendor or his products" thing and then it becomes apparent that he is just uptight and just get's off doing what he does.

 

This doesn't make any sense? When have you "numbers guys" accepted any numbers from a vendor as objective? Even if they where? And from the last post it looks like Andy is the least objective of all.

 

Please keep this thread on track.

 

Its funny that you try to enforce that in this thread but posted in the other....