Yeah sure..I'll even match thier price....

 

at $300, with the nifty heat shield, i would be paying $50 more than the leading competitor it better bring some significant gains! show me the gains and youll get my money

 

you think the leading competitor is the HAI!

Matt

But back to data. I actually went back to check an impression I'd had on 1/4 times, and found that I was half right....

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=41072

Anyway, to know 1/4 times and 0-60 times is easy. And true, there is some variation by car etc, but the numbers do server there perpose.

Matt

 

Numbers do indeed serve a purpose, and I use them on my car quite often. The wonderful thing in that scenario is that it's always my car, the same data-logger, and the same methodolgy, and the same operator .

As far as the vendor providing proof, I'll take it if it's provided, but like many of us, it's natural to be immediately critical and skeptical...

If the tests a vendor chooses to use are simple and inexpensive, or the opposite, the accuracy is what's important of course. And this is generally shown through replication of results. I would venture to guess that most would agree with that...

And while the results would be scientifically sound, the bottom-line is that we are not there to see the outcome, and witness those actual results. Such numbers are provided to us from, drum-roll please... the vendor. And do we all believe what vendors claim? Of course not. This thread is testament to just that...

So even if the experimentation is deemed ideal, and acceptable by those who seek such information, it is invariably fed to us by someone who very much has a vested interest in that number showing favorable results. Fudging can and does occur, and we know that...

This kills it for many of us, and certainly makes me not want to demand such anymore. Gosh, if we somehow got the results directly from the "lab," now that would be awesome! But, even if that were so, that would only help us discern the viability of that one product. As consumers we are generally looking at a few options. If the other vendors use different testing methods (assumes others will test and share), our dream lab fly-on-the-wall info only helps us with just that one product...

No matter how solid the testing, the reults are handed to us as "proof" by the vendors. And even if there is absolute faith and trust in that vendor's representation of the results, we need to hope that the other products on our list are administered the same testing, and also provided to us by an equally ethical vendor. Looking at the testing method is one thing, and important of course. But by taking-off the blinders and looking at the big picture here, we see that we are hosed .

As said already, we generally never truly know until the testomonials start rolling-in. There's nothing like real world experiences, on different cars, in various states of tune...

I've found, like picking stocks, by doing some research (previous post), being an early adopter is not always painful; and more often than not, it has been very rewarding!

 

this is where I don't get it....

If a vendor was to test a product...I.E. "here is our new capasitive duractent..it's made from famulated amulite....we took our Mini making 188 WHP and put this on it...it now makes 210 WHP....WOO HOO ISN"T THAT NEAT!...and here's a dyno sheet"

and maybe even a video...

I would belive them...why wouldn't I ....what is it with people thinking a vendor would lie...they are proud of what they achived...and want to share it...

Now, when a vendor comes out with products and claims it does this that and the other thing...but doesn't back it up...now there is something to think about...

I am not saying that that is all that goes into the decision...don't get me wrong...I have tuned cars for sometime...and there are just certain things that do and don't make sence...but still...show me some #s so I can see it does anything...other wise...it's just a kewl thing to say you have...and well I'd rather more blinker fluid or somehting...it's cheaper..

 

lotta $ for an air system

Needed for sound and power for a MCS: 17% pulley, catch Pilo when he does his $125 CAI in the summer, drill 5 holes in the plastic housing near the FW, and drive 'n drift the @#$! out of our cars!!! (Oh yeah, ditch the rnflats and tires)

 

A video of a dyno is sort of like a fly-on-the-wall, and that would be cool in validating the numbers provided... almost as if we were there. The video would have to be a telling one in terms of what exactly we are seeing...

Without a video, it's a different story though... Dyno outputs have been tampered with; and I've even had a vendor tell me about this reality, unfortunately...

Many feel that a vendor has a reason to lie because a stronger performing product will be seen as more desirable; people will pick theirs over the competition...

 

Damn!!!

 

This is when they price the product accordantly. You can't charge the same price as John Doe Motorsports if you don't perform as well or better but you can price it in reach of others that can afford the John Doe Motorsports thingy. You still have a product that was developed and would probably sell to others that don't need/want the absolute best.

Brad

 

Indeed Brad. That is why in my first post in this thread I said:

Some will buy the "best" at any cost. Others will buy the "best" that they can afford, and still others will see that the "best" is simply what delivers the most bang-for-the-buck. Good vendors recognize this, and offer products to satisfy such an array of what might be deemed the "best".

 

If the numbers are so hard to come by, why can I go here:

http://www.webbmotorsports.com/intake-mcs.php

and get this information (edited down to the numbers part):

ALTA Intake - 4 ft/lbs of torque, 7 horsepower
Pilo Racing - The dyno shows increases of 5 horsepower with this unit.
Pipercross - Increase of 5 horsepower.
UNIFilter Drop-in Air Filter - Gains have been in the 3 horsepower range.
BMP - Increase of 3 horsepower.

Do I believe these are gospel? No. But it gives me an idea of what to expect and something on which to base a cost/benefit decision. They also give me a reference point to check on the performance of the part I purchase.

For example, if I buy the Alta, dyno my car and come up with +7 to 10 hp, then I'm a happy customer and I start looking at what comes next.

However if I buy the Alta, dyno my car and come up with +0 to 3 hp, then I'm going to be getting on the phone with Randy Webb or Alta to figure out what's going on.

Without the 7 hp vendor-posted number, I have no reference point and therefore cannot possibly know if I'm getting all that I have paid for.

 

Do intakes perform the same on the dyno as they do on the road?

 

*Sigh*

Man I'm really getting tired seeing all these types of threads. If you're not happy with the way a vendor is doing business on the forums, shouldn't you just contact that vendor directly?

I seriously doubt most of you have ever called Peter to talk to him directly about any of his products. Seriously, if you want more info, I URGE you to give Peter a call. He is truly a great guy, and will talk your ear off about the MINI. He has a passion for the MINI and the MINI community like you wouldn't believe.

And Andy, I'm sure you're a great guy, and obviously passionate about the MINI. Same thing goes for you. It is obvious that Peter and Randy don't have much time to get onto the forums, so why not just give Peter a call? I'm positive that he could give you some insight into the AGS and other products that might sway you one way or the other.

Anyway, don't anyone get your panties in a twist and take anything personal, we're just trying to have a friendly conversation here, right?

 

My limited experience has shown that intakes actually do better on the road than they do on a dyno. But I'll defer to people who have a lot more experience with them than I do to give a more definitive answer.

 

why was a vendor tampering with the results?

 

In my business I participate in a lot of trade shows. This is an opportunity for (in this case) dealers to get up close and personal with vendors. Vendors have to be pretty honest because they are going to have to answer face to face with their customers. Outlandish claims are rare. I'm not talking SEMA here but it would be cool if at someplace like the Dragon if a vendor display "meet and greet" could be arranged where 1 time a year the vendors all get together under one roof and show their stuff not to mention their faces. Only the truly serious vendors would understand the importance of supporting this Mini only event and enough vendor/end user interaction would happen to keep everyone honest etc.

What do you think?

As I am relatively new (last June) if this exists I don't know about it.

 

Ok, allow me attempt to simplify this thread and bring it to the point again, That I think Andy was getting at.

Don't we as consumers expect products to be tested using standard variables and conditions so that we can compare apples to apples?

Shouldn't we be able to pick up a box and expect to see the same chart on all brands of a similar product?

Like the FDA labels on our food, data should be given in a clear and standardized fashion, unfortunately the only time this ever happens is when that government that is so annoying steps in and forces it for the consumers sake.

 

Standardized testing is very difficult to pull off. All would need the same dyno/equipment calibrated exactly in a controlled atmospheric environment using the exact same methods. The closest thing to this is UL or Consumer reports and ask anyone about the hassle/cost factor dealing with those guys. This industry is way too small to get truly standardized testing implemented. There is simply not enough $ or incentive.

I would be happy with a "on this day under these conditions this is what we measured over 5-10 repeatable tests."

 

This is a forum for discussion of " Performance Mods :: Drivetrain" for MINI's. The whole purpose for this forum is for back and forth comments, questions, and answers about parts and modifications that are intended to make our MINIs better in some manner between the oil cap and the axles. If you are uncomfortable reading questions about products, or calls for data to back up vendor claims, you may be better off sticking to a forum where the vendors are not subject to such outlandish assaults as "do you have any data to back up your claims?". NAM has conveniently provided just such a forum, it's called " Vendor Announcements "

I find it astounding that there are lengthy posts in THIS forum from people calling for LESS information about products rather than MORE. Again, true standardized testing following rigorous scientific method is not gonna happen. Nobody expects that it will. What does and should happen is at least some testing of new products that demonstrates the vendors' claims.

If that testing didn't happen in the first place, then the vendor is flat-out lying about the claims. If the testing DID happen and the vendor refuses to produce testing results, then he is failing to back up his claim, a situation that will naturally produce posts asking for the data. If that testing happened AND the vendor produces the testing results, it shows that the vendor cares about selling the product, not just to the "herd" who will buy the newest, most hyped product, but also to the people who believe in crazy cults like Physics and the Laws of Thermodynamics.

It seems to me that producing believable and relevant data shouldn't take away any sales from the "herd" but ya never know. Personally, I'd see that a chance I'd be willing to take.

 

First off, no one is asking for less.

Secondly, i agree that you should be able to ask your question, i want to know numbers too. Ask "Where are the numbers?"....if the vendor doesnt answer(for whatever reason they give)...that plainly SUCKS. But what i disagree with is that you then take it to an unnecessary level of bashing him saying that it must not be true, and begin making jokes at their expense. The forum is about Drivetrain and performance...so you can ask for the performance data...but nowhere do i see where it calls for some of the immature bashing that results in those threads when people dont get the answers they want (sounds to me like little kids at a grocery store ("MOMMMY...i want that candy wahhhhh"). If they dont give you the numbers that you want...that is on them. But instead of acting immaturely, let them make that mistake....you can just move on and buy other products instead of teasing or bashing the vendor. If you dont like how he runs his company by not giving numbers, then just avoid it all together. It's fair to ask for numbers...i love to see numbers before i buy something, but if a company refuses, taking it any further is pointless. Be the bigger man and just move on...why lower yourself.

Stop bashing...if you dont get what you want, dont give them what they want....your money.

I think many people on the "opposing team" would agree....we would like to see numbers too, we just dont agree with the way some people on this forum often take it to a very childish level of teasing and bashing.

 

Where exactly do you see "bashing"? The only immature comments I see in this thread are directed at me (which I don't mind, I'm a grown-up), not at vendors.

 

Wow! Andy speaks the truth. When his posts are absent of sarcasm and hostility, I can find no fault with his logic. When I read his posts going forward, I'm going to view them in this light and give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'd say the ball is in M7's court. I do hope we can have an environment where vendors feel that the risk of providing evidence of success is acceptable, and in fact necessary. I'm not suggesting we all put on our rose colored lenses, but maybe we can bury the hatchet.

As KiLO posted earlier, it's clear that both Andy and Peter are passionate about MINIs. All of us are, right? It seems unlikely that we're really all that far apart. So, when M7 comes out with some testing data, and they will, if it convinces you, vote with your $$$. If not, fine. But it doesn't need to be nasty, that takes a lot of the fun out of it. There are things to go to war over. This is not one of them.

 

You just called me a member of a crazy cult. BOO HOO HOO HOO!


Matt

 

The drama queen is at it again...

ZM

 

Ok, So that puts me in the club of keep all your stupid numbers! I dont want to see one single chart then!!! I dont give a flip about numbers if I can't compare them and validate them!

Look, there is only two options to me.

A: the aftermarket industry gets their crap together and publishes data by that "rigorous scientific method" which we learned in 8th grade so that consumers can actually use and make decisions on data! Then alot more products would get sold IMO

B: Our whole approach to things is "Well bubba, lets try this and see if it feels any faster and if it don't break we will sell it" We as the consumer then ride in Leroy's car who installed Bubba's mod and if it feels faster then we get one too.

Bottom line in if the data is not consistent, keep it who wants it? Not us the consumer. It does us no good! It is only marketing crap, making big claims and putting out propaganda and coming up short on delivery