It all comes down to how much faith you have in a vendor. If you have faith enough in a vendors number generation (most are just dyno charts, on the vendors test car), then you should have enough faith to buy the part if the vendor says it is the best part. One has no proof, and the other has "proof" that we all know can be easialy skewed.

Another great point that was brought up by a friend of mine was this. M7 for example said months, and months ago that they were developing an intake for the MCS. This kind of relationship with a vendor allows someone the chance to hold off on buying another product because they know they would rather wait for the yet unmade product.

I want to enforce something here though...this kind of buyer/vender relationship is something I've never seen on a such a grand scheme in all the years I've been building cars. Sure some people get perks because they "know" the vendor, but NEVER have I seen a vendor offer pre-orders to a web forum before that product is even released to the public. It's quite amazing stuff!!!

The MCS community is rather new. The aftermarket for the MCS is also in its first steps. In order to have the kind of confidence that people have in the VW, BMW, Honda etc. aftermarkets, some people will have to risk a couple hundred on a product to truly find out the quality, and potential of that product. The only way around that is a seperate body that would do all of that for us, a magazine perhaps dedicated only to the MCS aftermarket....but thats not around.

If you're not up for helping to develop the MCS aftermarket community, and you would rather sit on your hands until those of us willing to take risks tell you it's safe to get in the water. Thats 100% fine with me...just stop complaining about it.

-Jake

 

As we all know, numbers are only half the story, if that.

If a vendor were to come out with Product X and say that it gives you a solid 20 more horsepower, I'd feel that this is more suspect than if another vendor's Product Y "has been shown to increase power by anywhere from 10-20 horsepower depending on conditions and other modifications".

Take pulleys, for example, since of all common mods for MCS they have the biggest and most demonstrable performance changes. A vendor can say that his pulley will give you anywhere from 10-25 more horsepower by itself, not knowing if the car has been fitted with an intake or exhaust or ECU remap and this would be a valid claim. He could also say that his pulley gave a car 29 more horsepower at the wheels during a dyno test. Both could be absolute truths. The first claim, while not as dramatic in a marketing sense would not leave the vendor open to nearly as much scrutiny and would show what the average buyer would likely get. These days with (marketing) power wars going on among vendors they would rather speak of the maximum amount of gain to slap on their literature and move more product.

I myself tend to hold back for a while to see what shakes out over a period of time and which products are most effective. When I got my MCS the notion of swapping pulleys was just becoming a reality and people did not know if their engines or blowers would explode or how much gains would show. In the meatime, the pioneering people tested and compared different pulleys and did some long-term testing. We found out over time that a 19% pulley is quite feasable though the gain over a 15% is not nearly as dramatic as a 15% over stock. It's a game of inches, basically.

I am always looking to see what sort of new ideas are showing up. Some vendors give us 'sneak previews' of what they are doing, which in itself is fun but also sparks competition and other ideas. To grill a vendor for raw numbers when their prototype has barely cooled down from the foundry much less been tested on a variety of differing cars can foster ill will in the community.

We all know by now that there is no magic pulley that will give a MINI another 50whp. Same with intakes, exhausts and other common upgrades. It has now become a game of small steps and finding gains in areas such as ECU tuning, cams, head work, intake and exhaust tracts, etc. And since there is an almost endless number of combinations of all these upgrades, there will be more than that number of overall performance gain 'numbers'.

We are still dealing with a 98 cubic inch fourbanger here. It's amazing that it hasnt gotten to the point where the engine jumps out from under the bonnet and runs around in circles screaming.

Big gains are going to either need a few really big changes (think twincharging) or a lot of little ones together (a specific package from intake to exhaust and everything in between). In the meantime we will find out what makes power and what doesnt and choose accordingly.

What we need is more independent testing. "Vendor testing" should always be suspect until the stuff gets into other hands and verified.

 

So Andy, Is is true that you wouldn't test an M7 product because you can't stand the company? What are you basing this on? Do you have numbers to support your conclusion? How did you come to this conclusion, what procedure did you use? What measurements where taken? And where? Was your prcedure scientific? How do we know that the numbers can be trusted given your agenda?

 

You can't say that about St. Andy, the righteous keeper of all numbers holy and pure! If he's bashing the living snot out of someone, he has a good reason for it.

The truth is, Andy is right. He's just a little vigorous in his approach.

And, it should be said that he's quite the innovator himself. Aside from the HAI, which is an accepted approach that produces gains, his Vacuum Gain System modification is also very effective.

Not surprisingly, I couldn't provide numbers for either mod, but I believe in both. It's based on personal experience. I guess that makes it clear which camp I fall into.

 

I have never done business with M7 nor have they offered me any of their parts. RLmini and sfjames2, I'd suggest you stop spreading lies before it gets you into trouble.

Now, please, back on track. Remember, this thread is NOT for "rest of you guys who are ready to slap down money regardless of whether or not the part does what the vendor claim".

 

And the determination of a bulldog... Fantastic. Keep up the good work.

 

Andy, I am not trying to spread anything but would like to know if this Post from sfjames is true. I was just reading today the thread on the M7 air scoop and you did seem a little hostile. Is there something personal going on with you and M7? A lot of what you have contributed has been fine and I was one the first to run out and buy an RU1520 even though you didn't have much in the way of numbers. I bought it because I trusted you. And the financial risk was minimal. Was that wrong? does that make me someone who just plunks down the money?

I am not sold by vendor claims. I like to take a look at the product and gather and understanding of the technology behind it. At this point I may buy,(ie: AGS) but I also like to find out what others have experienced when possible such a when a product has been around a while. This past weekend I ordered some new wheels and decided I wanted to lower the car. I started reading threads on springs and also checked Randy Webb's write ups. I ended up ordering the springs that I felt I would be happiest with which turned out to be my first purchase from M7. I found Peter to be a delight to work with.

 

Since you didn't seem to read my above post, I'll repeat it:

I have never done business with M7 nor have they offered me any of their parts.

Got it? Good.

 

Your reply makes perfect since if Sfjames works for M7. Does He? SfJames claims he asked you to test something which happend to be from M7.

 

Now now andy....we all saw when they offered to send you the "device"...you just refused....so you cant say they never offered


Oh yah, and my opinions can be heard...i dont plan on buying an AGS....i have an MC

 

Check the archives. They would not send me the Device without also gathering my name and information for their mass mailing list, a proviso which I felt was unreasonable and was unrelated to testing out a tiny rubber hose with a tinier plastic hose wedged into it. As far as I remember, they (maxmini) refused to send the device without gathering and using that info, so that was that. An M7 customer who chose to remain anonymous sent me an M7 device. I tested it and found it to do nothing whatsoever (with posted data and graphs and stuff) so I gave it away to another curious tester. So, I've never done business with M7, they have never offered to send anything to me for testing (since I wouldn't agree to be on their marketing list), yet I have had a second hand M7 part on my car ... which did diddly-squat.

 

[QUOTE=andy@ross-tech.com]I have never done business with M7 nor have they offered me any of their parts. RLmini and sfjames2, I'd suggest you stop spreading lies before it gets you into trouble.
QUOTE]

Please Andy....when I was new on this board, I remember asking you to test out the M7 Device because of all the drama you were raising. I did it then thinking that you MIGHT have a valid point and I knew you'd be able to prove it one way or the other, but your response about Not doing buis. with M7 yada, yada convinced me that you just have issues.

It's old now!!!

 

[QUOTE=sfjames2] Is this the thread in question?

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...1&postcount=66

Please re-read my post above.

 

I said it before here, and in another thread, a 3rd party that is un-affiliated to the interested parties is what's needed. Requesting vendors to provide "proof" is in some ways tantamount to having the mouse watch the cheese. If a number is provided, there will be many plausible opportunities for refutation. Even if the experiment is done properly with exacting equipment and protocol, how do we the consumers really know that the data provided to us is what the experimentation elicited?

We don't know. It's a matter of trust at that point. And if there is none in that vendor/tuner, or not a sufficient amount of it, any data provided will mostly likely be considered tainted. All the more reason to invest the time to build relationships with these guys...

In addition to forging such relationships, research things! Every product I've purchased for my MCS entailed the use of the search button here on NAM and MINI2. I read all that I could, and I asked questions when clarification was sought. I have PM'd folks on almost every item that has caught my interest. onasled got hit-up most recently (control arms) . And of course I pick the minds of the vendor and manufacturer, if different. Heck, I've even gone on other forums for different makes to get input there as well. If one cares enough, such due diligence is essential; at least for me to make an educated and well-informed decision. Between doing this, and having a vendor/tuner with whom I feel good about, that's about the best dang checks-and-balances one is going to get...

And while proving that a product delivers is riddled with the aforementioned, it gets much more so when one then decides to compare such results or "proof" with that of a competing item. As consumers, we often have choices, and many of them.

Let's say one product comes with empirical data, derived from state-of-the-art, highly accurate equipment. On top of this, it is conveyed that the testing method is equally sound, and methodically controlled. An assortment of data is provided, one being a whp figure of let's say 8. A few other competing products, in the same price-range, offer dyno numbers only, but in bhp of 12 and 14. Making a decision based upon numbers provided if legitimate, and obtained in radically different ways is absurd. And to expect all to use the same equipment and method for testing is not realistic, nor possibly feasible for every company. Along with these choices, there might be other competing products that stay away from this whole number fiasco; as their companies have decided to simply state the qualities or attributes that make their product the most desirable.

Ideally, I'd want numbers that prove things, without a doubt. Life would be much easier indeed. However, we are not in a vacuum, and minus the proper scientific approach, the last thing I want is numbers that can masquerade as such, which I find to be worse than minimal to no information...

In the absence of the ideal:

Do research to understand what characteristics lend themselves to performance gains for intakes, exhausts and everything in-between...

Critique the products on the market to see which employ any or all of these accepted attributes...

Once the selection process has narrowed-down a bit, gather information on those items from incessant research...

And shop for a vendor like it's one of the biggest purchases in your MINI life! Build a rapport, understand their philosophy and approach, and see if they inquire as to what you want your MINI to become. If not, tell them, and see if they care and assist you accordingly. It's about building trust...

 

Yeah, I do not work for M7, but dig them for the effort they put into developing parts for my car.

 

I think it is time for the NAM STEEL CAGE MATCH One night only ,#s persons (cant say guys, it isn't pc) Vs Vendors in a steel cage death match! This is a long overdue and I am sure it would be interesting . I would like to take a corner with the numbers crowd This could be a major pay-per view event.

 

Some like numbers before purchase, some follow thier nose. But what Flyboy said is true, there ARE standard ways to evaluate flow, torque, rotational mass (moment of inertia), temperatures and the like. It's just that numbers from these techniques are a bit scarce,

For most things, I like to have numbers to know, but I've been know to "adopt early" every now and then. It's riskier, but such is living on the edge.

I hope for numbers, look to the foundations of the mod in question, and see if others will spend the time and $ to get numbers if they aren't there. And sometimes I just ahve to buy and see for my self!

Matt

 

Now we are talking

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

I think some of you are intentionally or unintentionally missing the point. There is no way to get UL-labs style testing results from every part for every MINI and I don't think anyone expects that. However, when a vendor MAKES A CLAIM on a forum like this, they should be able to produce some basis for that claim. If they do not or can not, it casts doubt on the accuracy of their claim. That's only common sense.

As Dr. Obnxs mentioned, there are inexpensive, relatively simple tests that can be done to check most of the claims made about part performance, using sound principles without the rigors of the scientific method. There are lots of knowledgeable people here who can help with testing setups or point to books and references for more guidance. No vendor is required to test anything, but on the other hand no vendor is immune from being asked to test or provide testing information.

The suggestion that vendors should avoid posting any of their data for fear of scrutiny is ridiculous. Face it, whether you are a vendor or a regular poster, whether you put underbody neons or a turbo kit on your car, there will be replies from people who like the mod and replies from people who don't like that mod. That's life and if you cannot deal with it, agoraphobia is free and easy to start. Ultimately, it is up to each of you (and/or your banker/spouse ) to decide what you want or don't want on your car.

Cliff notes: Expect to be questioned for data when you make a claim.

 

And if the vendor doesn't provide that data, feel free to vote with your dollars.

 

In a nut shell...that's sums in up....I'd say it in another language but I cannot...too early

 

Speaking for myself - I galdly pay but expect something in return.
Performance mods should add performance. Vendors should be able to demonstrate that there is a benefit. Vendors clearly will always present the most favorable data so its boards like this and people who independently test products that help keep vendors honest.

I don't buy anything without first consulting with this board . I have a need to make informed decisions and have not only posted for information but even bother Andy @ Ross-tech for information. I don't know him, he doesn't know me and I haven't bought anything from him YET but the day will come!

 

I like to see proof but I like to excercise patience since it's been so hard to learn that art. While I take into account the company's reputation I also like to see others buy the stuff first and hear what they have to say. We all have different reasons or justifications for making a purchase. Vendors always end up having to face the truth about their products, they rise and fall by their own weight. With all due respect Andy, take your gloves off and let the vendors make a living. If you don't want to spend your money on a product for whatever the reason that's fine but someone else may have a perfect justification to want and buy that same product. Anybody interested in some realy good snake oil ?

 

I want one of these but I found it a little cheaper on another site. Will you include shipping?

Dave

 

This has been one of the most enjoyable threads to follow since I joined NAM more than three years ago, but I have yet to offer my two cents on the topic. However......there always needs to be some guinea pigs for a new product whether claims about it's effectiveness have been made or not. Some don't mind jumping right in without testing the water especially if $$$ are not an issue. The more prudent and $$$ conscious members of this forum who are in no big rush (why should they be?) will simply wait for the leapers to provide enough feedback to help them determine with some degree of certainty whether it's worth it or not.

I'm not sure if I'm interested in the AGS even if it's performance should surpass the expectations of those who get it. However, based on the quality of the M7 lower grill I purchased and the great service that Peter provided, my guess is that they will deliver a great product at a great value.