Drivetrain Manic Stage 2 Gains
#51
05-09-2016, 07:27 PM
No the Manic tune does not disable the knock sensor. I have seen the code myself and it has not been tampered with. In addition, I have seen timing pulled on logs of Manic tunes when the fuel used was sub-par. In short both by direct and inferred observation I can unequivocally state the knock sensor is not disabled. For a tuner to do so would not only be unethical but would also be an unthinkable breach of trust with the customer.
The factory pistons are a cast forging. Same thing with CP and Mahle Powerpak pistons however they use a much beefier design (extra wall thickness, wider skirts and more robust land design. It is very expensive to machine a piston from billet. The CP pistons also use a more flexible material that is less prone to cracking from pre-ignition. JCW pistons are 10.25:1 instead of the S model's 10.5:1 and are more robust. The 10:1 final compression is due to the JCW using a .3mm thicker head gasket.
I've tuned several S models to 21/22 psi, even Stage 3's without meth on stock internals and larger turbo's with no I'll effects. Provided timing and AFR are correct the S pistons should soldier on quite nicely. Total power output however is limited by timing unless meth injection is added to the mix. My concern for your future engine would be the state of the vehicles fueling system. Since the ring land failure has occurred on more than one piston the HPFP and LPFP/filter are more likely culprits than the injectors but I would not rule them out. I would have the injectors tested or replaced before installing the new engine. I would also recommend getting DashCommand to log fuel pressure with the engine not running but the ignition key on. Readings should be ~70 psi or greater. I would also log absolute load and fuel pump pressure in DashCommand in addition to RPM, timing, AFR and boost. As absolute load climbs so should fuel pressure until approx. 2200 psi. There should be no large drops in fuel pressure unless associated with a corresponding decrease in load. The ECU can ask for an Lambda of .75 to .8 all day long but if the fuel system is incapable of providing sufficient fuel pre-ignition will occur. The knock sensor will detect this and pull timing but this is after the event has already occurred. This repetitive fatigue has a cumulative effect on the ring lands and can ultimately cause them to fail.
When I install Manic tunes I always run a diagnostic first to look for error codes and datalog each map after the tune is installed to ensure everything is within expected parameters. For ECU's that are mailed in I always ask the customer to send datalogs afterwards to review.
I would also ask anyone considering a Manic tune to please always follow the recommended advice on switching to NGK ILKR8E6 plugs. The standard S plugs are insufficient to deal with the increased combustion temperature and pressures that occur when demanding more from the engine. I have seen this lead to misfiring within as little as a week when this advice has not been followed.
The factory pistons are a cast forging. Same thing with CP and Mahle Powerpak pistons however they use a much beefier design (extra wall thickness, wider skirts and more robust land design. It is very expensive to machine a piston from billet. The CP pistons also use a more flexible material that is less prone to cracking from pre-ignition. JCW pistons are 10.25:1 instead of the S model's 10.5:1 and are more robust. The 10:1 final compression is due to the JCW using a .3mm thicker head gasket.
I've tuned several S models to 21/22 psi, even Stage 3's without meth on stock internals and larger turbo's with no I'll effects. Provided timing and AFR are correct the S pistons should soldier on quite nicely. Total power output however is limited by timing unless meth injection is added to the mix. My concern for your future engine would be the state of the vehicles fueling system. Since the ring land failure has occurred on more than one piston the HPFP and LPFP/filter are more likely culprits than the injectors but I would not rule them out. I would have the injectors tested or replaced before installing the new engine. I would also recommend getting DashCommand to log fuel pressure with the engine not running but the ignition key on. Readings should be ~70 psi or greater. I would also log absolute load and fuel pump pressure in DashCommand in addition to RPM, timing, AFR and boost. As absolute load climbs so should fuel pressure until approx. 2200 psi. There should be no large drops in fuel pressure unless associated with a corresponding decrease in load. The ECU can ask for an Lambda of .75 to .8 all day long but if the fuel system is incapable of providing sufficient fuel pre-ignition will occur. The knock sensor will detect this and pull timing but this is after the event has already occurred. This repetitive fatigue has a cumulative effect on the ring lands and can ultimately cause them to fail.
When I install Manic tunes I always run a diagnostic first to look for error codes and datalog each map after the tune is installed to ensure everything is within expected parameters. For ECU's that are mailed in I always ask the customer to send datalogs afterwards to review.
I would also ask anyone considering a Manic tune to please always follow the recommended advice on switching to NGK ILKR8E6 plugs. The standard S plugs are insufficient to deal with the increased combustion temperature and pressures that occur when demanding more from the engine. I have seen this lead to misfiring within as little as a week when this advice has not been followed.
The following users liked this post:
scotty_r56s (04-28-2019)
#52
05-09-2016, 07:33 PM
No the Manic tune does not disable the knock sensor. I have seen the code myself and it has not been tampered with. In addition, I have seen timing pulled on logs of Manic tunes when the fuel used was sub-par. In short both by direct and inferred observation I can unequivocally state the knock sensor is not disabled. For a tuner to do so would not only be unethical but would also be an unthinkable breach of trust with the customer.
The factory pistons are a cast forging. Same thing with CP and Mahle Powerpak pistons however they use a much beefier design (extra wall thickness, wider skirts and more robust land design. It is very expensive to machine a piston from billet. The CP pistons also use a more flexible material that is less prone to cracking from pre-ignition. JCW pistons are 10.25:1 instead of the S model's 10.5:1 and are more robust. The 10:1 final compression is due to the JCW using a .3mm thicker head gasket.
I've tuned several S models to 21/22 psi, even Stage 3's without meth on stock internals and larger turbo's with no I'll effects. Provided timing and AFR are correct the S pistons should soldier on quite nicely. Total power output however is limited by timing unless meth injection is added to the mix. My concern for your future engine would be the state of the vehicles fueling system. Since the ring land failure has occurred on more than one piston the HPFP and LPFP/filter are more likely culprits than the injectors but I would not rule them out. I would have the injectors tested or replaced before installing the new engine. I would also recommend getting DashCommand to log fuel pressure with the engine not running but the ignition key on. Readings should be ~70 psi or greater. I would also log absolute load and fuel pump pressure in DashCommand in addition to RPM, timing, AFR and boost. As absolute load climbs so should fuel pressure until approx. 2200 psi. There should be no large drops in fuel pressure unless associated with a corresponding decrease in load. The ECU can ask for an Lambda of .75 to .8 all day long but if the fuel system is incapable of providing sufficient fuel pre-ignition will occur. The knock sensor will detect this and pull timing but this is after the event has already occurred. This repetitive fatigue has a cumulative effect on the ring lands and can ultimately cause them to fail.
When I install Manic tunes I always run a diagnostic first to look for error codes and datalog each map after the tune is installed to ensure everything is within expected parameters. For ECU's that are mailed in I always ask the customer to send datalogs afterwards to review.
I would also ask anyone considering a Manic tune to please always follow the recommended advice on switching to NGK ILKR8E6 plugs. The standard S plugs are insufficient to deal with the increased combustion temperature and pressures that occur when demanding more from the engine. I have seen this lead to misfiring within as little as a week when this advice has not been followed.
The factory pistons are a cast forging. Same thing with CP and Mahle Powerpak pistons however they use a much beefier design (extra wall thickness, wider skirts and more robust land design. It is very expensive to machine a piston from billet. The CP pistons also use a more flexible material that is less prone to cracking from pre-ignition. JCW pistons are 10.25:1 instead of the S model's 10.5:1 and are more robust. The 10:1 final compression is due to the JCW using a .3mm thicker head gasket.
I've tuned several S models to 21/22 psi, even Stage 3's without meth on stock internals and larger turbo's with no I'll effects. Provided timing and AFR are correct the S pistons should soldier on quite nicely. Total power output however is limited by timing unless meth injection is added to the mix. My concern for your future engine would be the state of the vehicles fueling system. Since the ring land failure has occurred on more than one piston the HPFP and LPFP/filter are more likely culprits than the injectors but I would not rule them out. I would have the injectors tested or replaced before installing the new engine. I would also recommend getting DashCommand to log fuel pressure with the engine not running but the ignition key on. Readings should be ~70 psi or greater. I would also log absolute load and fuel pump pressure in DashCommand in addition to RPM, timing, AFR and boost. As absolute load climbs so should fuel pressure until approx. 2200 psi. There should be no large drops in fuel pressure unless associated with a corresponding decrease in load. The ECU can ask for an Lambda of .75 to .8 all day long but if the fuel system is incapable of providing sufficient fuel pre-ignition will occur. The knock sensor will detect this and pull timing but this is after the event has already occurred. This repetitive fatigue has a cumulative effect on the ring lands and can ultimately cause them to fail.
When I install Manic tunes I always run a diagnostic first to look for error codes and datalog each map after the tune is installed to ensure everything is within expected parameters. For ECU's that are mailed in I always ask the customer to send datalogs afterwards to review.
I would also ask anyone considering a Manic tune to please always follow the recommended advice on switching to NGK ILKR8E6 plugs. The standard S plugs are insufficient to deal with the increased combustion temperature and pressures that occur when demanding more from the engine. I have seen this lead to misfiring within as little as a week when this advice has not been followed.
#54
11-22-2017, 02:53 AM
I just had it on the dyno for the first time and suffered some sort of massive engine failure. Made 155kw (about 260bhp) on performance mode C, but interestingly it was during performance mode B that killed it. Not got to the bottom of it yet, but looks like piston failure on #3 cylinder. Lost compression, blowing loads of black smoke. I was also concerned that the knock sensor was disabled in the manic tune, but the ECU did report a "super knock" occurred at the time, it just didn't do anything to prevent it happening. Unlike you, I was using the colder ILKR8E6 plugs, but it was actually suspected that these could have actually caused the failure, and the engine didn't take them very happily (idle was very rough).
Manic Mini told me I was fine to run all performance modes without meth injection, as long as I was using decent 98RON fuel. I have the super K03 turbo from JMTC, and all the other necessary bolt-ons. Looking to start rebuilding the engine with forged pistons to get it back on the road.
My local mechanic (he's worked on my mini quite a bit) reckons I just ran out of fuel which triggered all the subsequent failures. Anyone had issues with the HPFP not supplying enough fuel to support the Stage 2 or Stage 3 maps?
#55
11-22-2017, 04:55 AM
Well ... a lot happened, as it turns out. I chronicled some of it on several threads here:
This is the main build threadhttps://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-in-there.html
Then upgraded the turbo https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...the-turbo.html
Things I didn't post included killing the Brisk plugs, trashing the thermostat, and replacing the HPFP.
This is the fourth (and maybe final) engine build I've put into Buzz. ... but you never know....!
This is the main build threadhttps://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-in-there.html
Then upgraded the turbo https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...the-turbo.html
Things I didn't post included killing the Brisk plugs, trashing the thermostat, and replacing the HPFP.
This is the fourth (and maybe final) engine build I've put into Buzz. ... but you never know....!
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bugeye1031 (12-04-2017)
#56
04-28-2019, 07:45 PM
5th Gear
No the Manic tune does not disable the knock sensor. I have seen the code myself and it has not been tampered with. In addition, I have seen timing pulled on logs of Manic tunes when the fuel used was sub-par. In short both by direct and inferred observation I can unequivocally state the knock sensor is not disabled. For a tuner to do so would not only be unethical but would also be an unthinkable breach of trust with the customer.
The factory pistons are a cast forging. Same thing with CP and Mahle Powerpak pistons however they use a much beefier design (extra wall thickness, wider skirts and more robust land design. It is very expensive to machine a piston from billet. The CP pistons also use a more flexible material that is less prone to cracking from pre-ignition. JCW pistons are 10.25:1 instead of the S model's 10.5:1 and are more robust. The 10:1 final compression is due to the JCW using a .3mm thicker head gasket.
I've tuned several S models to 21/22 psi, even Stage 3's without meth on stock internals and larger turbo's with no I'll effects. Provided timing and AFR are correct the S pistons should soldier on quite nicely. Total power output however is limited by timing unless meth injection is added to the mix. My concern for your future engine would be the state of the vehicles fueling system. Since the ring land failure has occurred on more than one piston the HPFP and LPFP/filter are more likely culprits than the injectors but I would not rule them out. I would have the injectors tested or replaced before installing the new engine. I would also recommend getting DashCommand to log fuel pressure with the engine not running but the ignition key on. Readings should be ~70 psi or greater. I would also log absolute load and fuel pump pressure in DashCommand in addition to RPM, timing, AFR and boost. As absolute load climbs so should fuel pressure until approx. 2200 psi. There should be no large drops in fuel pressure unless associated with a corresponding decrease in load. The ECU can ask for an Lambda of .75 to .8 all day long but if the fuel system is incapable of providing sufficient fuel pre-ignition will occur. The knock sensor will detect this and pull timing but this is after the event has already occurred. This repetitive fatigue has a cumulative effect on the ring lands and can ultimately cause them to fail.
When I install Manic tunes I always run a diagnostic first to look for error codes and datalog each map after the tune is installed to ensure everything is within expected parameters. For ECU's that are mailed in I always ask the customer to send datalogs afterwards to review.
I would also ask anyone considering a Manic tune to please always follow the recommended advice on switching to NGK ILKR8E6 plugs. The standard S plugs are insufficient to deal with the increased combustion temperature and pressures that occur when demanding more from the engine. I have seen this lead to misfiring within as little as a week when this advice has not been followed.
The factory pistons are a cast forging. Same thing with CP and Mahle Powerpak pistons however they use a much beefier design (extra wall thickness, wider skirts and more robust land design. It is very expensive to machine a piston from billet. The CP pistons also use a more flexible material that is less prone to cracking from pre-ignition. JCW pistons are 10.25:1 instead of the S model's 10.5:1 and are more robust. The 10:1 final compression is due to the JCW using a .3mm thicker head gasket.
I've tuned several S models to 21/22 psi, even Stage 3's without meth on stock internals and larger turbo's with no I'll effects. Provided timing and AFR are correct the S pistons should soldier on quite nicely. Total power output however is limited by timing unless meth injection is added to the mix. My concern for your future engine would be the state of the vehicles fueling system. Since the ring land failure has occurred on more than one piston the HPFP and LPFP/filter are more likely culprits than the injectors but I would not rule them out. I would have the injectors tested or replaced before installing the new engine. I would also recommend getting DashCommand to log fuel pressure with the engine not running but the ignition key on. Readings should be ~70 psi or greater. I would also log absolute load and fuel pump pressure in DashCommand in addition to RPM, timing, AFR and boost. As absolute load climbs so should fuel pressure until approx. 2200 psi. There should be no large drops in fuel pressure unless associated with a corresponding decrease in load. The ECU can ask for an Lambda of .75 to .8 all day long but if the fuel system is incapable of providing sufficient fuel pre-ignition will occur. The knock sensor will detect this and pull timing but this is after the event has already occurred. This repetitive fatigue has a cumulative effect on the ring lands and can ultimately cause them to fail.
When I install Manic tunes I always run a diagnostic first to look for error codes and datalog each map after the tune is installed to ensure everything is within expected parameters. For ECU's that are mailed in I always ask the customer to send datalogs afterwards to review.
I would also ask anyone considering a Manic tune to please always follow the recommended advice on switching to NGK ILKR8E6 plugs. The standard S plugs are insufficient to deal with the increased combustion temperature and pressures that occur when demanding more from the engine. I have seen this lead to misfiring within as little as a week when this advice has not been followed.
This rumor about Manic has been pretty persistent. I'm starting to think that the issue is not what Manic does or does not do. More than likely the issue is a reaction to different interpretations of what "tuning" is. I'm starting to think that it is nothing more than a sour-grape driven schadenfreude pissing contest. Change my mind.
#57
04-29-2019, 04:22 AM
5th Gear
I want to bring visibility to this.
This rumor about Manic has been pretty persistent. I'm starting to think that the issue is not what Manic does or does not do. More than likely the issue is a reaction to different interpretations of what "tuning" is. I'm starting to think that it is nothing more than a sour-grape driven schadenfreude pissing contest. Change my mind.
This rumor about Manic has been pretty persistent. I'm starting to think that the issue is not what Manic does or does not do. More than likely the issue is a reaction to different interpretations of what "tuning" is. I'm starting to think that it is nothing more than a sour-grape driven schadenfreude pissing contest. Change my mind.
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scotty_r56s (04-29-2019)
#58
04-29-2019, 07:19 PM
I tend to take anything another tuner says with a grain of salt. As a group we tend to be secretive and don't play well with others. Learning to tune properly is expensive and takes years to learn so we have an investment to protect. Regarding competition... perhaps but only as an additional revenue stream. The tuner in question is a good tuner but doesn't do a large amount with Gen II's cause he thinks we have "glass motors". Truth is that cast iron lump in the Gen I's was pretty durable provided you didn't overheat it. Most of the reason you didn't see them making the kind of torque or power figures we make without going into the engine can be laid solely at the feet of the SC but it also helped protect the engine. High boost at low RPM is the number one mistake I see other tuners make, and not just on the Mini. Nonetheless a Gen II if tuned and maintained properly should be a very dependable vehicle. I really should get off my sorry butt and start a thread about properly maintaining a tuned Gen II's because of the lack of such info and the amount of incorrect information floating around.
Anyway, back to the point above. I don't do much of any Manic tuning these days so no real dog in the argument either way. I generally spend my limited time custom tuning Stage 3 & 4 projects. For the sake of clarity though I will add the following to my previous post. There is in my opinion one, and only one legitimate time when a tuner can or should adjust the sensitivity of the knock sensor, and even then only with the full knowledge of the owner. If an engine has been assembled with clearances on the high side and is running CP pistons, the engine may generate sufficient mechanic noise to trigger false positives from the knock sensor. These false positive will result in lost performance due to retarded timing. If this is verified with a set of det cans or similar on the dyno the tuner may consider changing the sensitivity setting. If the change makes sense, and the client approves, then it would be acceptable to make the change and verify it on the dyno.
Speaking of dyno's. Keith any updates on Buzz? Hopefully, you got him to a spot your happy with?
Anyway, back to the point above. I don't do much of any Manic tuning these days so no real dog in the argument either way. I generally spend my limited time custom tuning Stage 3 & 4 projects. For the sake of clarity though I will add the following to my previous post. There is in my opinion one, and only one legitimate time when a tuner can or should adjust the sensitivity of the knock sensor, and even then only with the full knowledge of the owner. If an engine has been assembled with clearances on the high side and is running CP pistons, the engine may generate sufficient mechanic noise to trigger false positives from the knock sensor. These false positive will result in lost performance due to retarded timing. If this is verified with a set of det cans or similar on the dyno the tuner may consider changing the sensitivity setting. If the change makes sense, and the client approves, then it would be acceptable to make the change and verify it on the dyno.
Speaking of dyno's. Keith any updates on Buzz? Hopefully, you got him to a spot your happy with?
The following 2 users liked this post by Tigger2011:
scotty_r56s (04-30-2019),
yesti (05-02-2019)
#59
05-02-2019, 01:36 PM
Nonetheless a Gen II if tuned and maintained properly should be a very dependable vehicle. I really should get off my sorry butt and start a thread about properly maintaining a tuned Gen II's because of the lack of such info and the amount of incorrect information floating around.
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NeonLed (05-03-2019)
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