Since this person isn't on the forum, but is a student/friend of mine, I'll post this here.
One of my autocross school students wanted to heavily modify his new Cooper S. I insisted he learn to drive the car first, then get the mods. Well, he came to the school, learned a lot, but then did NOT hesitate to pile them on...

He showed up at my house yesterday with his Cooper S with 2500 miles on it (45 of those were ONE day of autocross school). Looking fairly stock with his black grill, an exhaust, white powder coated SSR Comps, and Toyo T1-S tires, what was under the hood was most important.

He added: a head, cam, intake, header, exhaust, chip, pulley, clutch, and flywheel.
So what does that REALLY mean?

A ways back, I used to post a lot of G-Tech tests on another forum. Here's one for this fourm.
He (about 200lbs) and I (160) jumped into his car to go to my usual spot for testing.
Now, he had a brand new clutch, so I babied the start. But, I drove my car the exact same way to get a good general idea of the time differece.

Long story short, one FULL second difference was found between his car and mine, which has a K&N filter and Supertrapp exahust.

Given better launches, ideal conditions and the same 78deg temp, I'd say his car is capable of 5.4 0-60 times.

Brian

 

Brian, that is quite impressive indeed (a full second delta, and 5.4). Can you share the particulars, as in what mods excactly, namely was it an 85% pulley, or did he go more extreme?

Maybe this might have you thinking SM now?

Edit/clarification - Did he have installed a 15% SC reduction pulley, or a 17 or 19%? I'm engaged in project now that has me thinking what remains, not what's gone

 

Glad to see you back doing your 0-60 times. I would like to know more details. Do you know the exact type of mods he was using? Thanks.

 

Are you sure just an intake and exhaust is giving you 6.4 sec times? That seems a bit optimistic, no?

 

He also has Azenis on there, and the tires have a smaller-than-stock circumference (I think). And then there's a Quaife...

 

Nope, don't know the exact mods, but it all came from Mini Mania. I can check and get back to the thread.

You still need more power for SM, and that can't be put to the ground with FWD...

Who said I had an intake? Just the Supertrapp and K&N FILTER.

Optimistic? I believe part of that definition means that: you haven't done it yet. Somewhere on the internet is the video footage of my G-Tech reading 6.27 in with temperatures in the high twenty's.
The funny part is how much people rely on magazine times when most of those cars are heavy, with heavy drivers, on hot days, with lousy tires. Change those variables and you'll get much better times. The car is clearly faster than the mid-high 7's they've shown.

I've actually pulled a 6.14 in 22 degree weather.

Nope, no Quaife in my car, I run in G Stock.
I have Koni singles, K&N Air Filter (not intake), and Supertrapp exhaust.
My car in this trim with Enkei RPO-1's with Hoosiers, and no gas is 2475lbs. I suppose I should take a picture of the scales too...

Finally, now my car has Toyo T1-S's (3lbs lighter, but not as sticky as the Falkens) on 16x7 Rota Slipstreams (1lb lighter than my Enkeis) as my street setup.

For those who do question the facts, I certainly have no trouble taking anyone for a ride...


ALL of this aside, the two cars run back to back in the same manor produced a minimum of one second difference 0-60, that was the point of the thread.

Brian

 

Good reply BGarfield!

 

$6000 dollars or so per second? That to me seems pretty steep. Whatever floats your boat, but I don't see the logic in that. We know the mini's strong suit is handling and maneuverability, not straight line acceleration. He probably should have gotten a different car with better straight line performance potential, probably a RWD. For the money he probably could have stock WRX STI which I suspect would be even quicker in all respects, plus have factory warranty and stronger transmission. As Brian has said before, the traction limitations inherent in FWD really make it hard to put down the power anyway.

I would recommend that gentleman spend $200 for a stiffer rear sway bar. That really brings miles of smiles.

 

Brian,
Thanks for the post and details. Most of the time we do upgrades for minimal improvements in lap times or in measureable tests. We go by subjective driver perception which isn't always "telling the truth". A drop of a second in 0-60 is quite good but I think he could have got the lion's share of that drop from just doing the following-
19% pulley no ECU upgrade
Intake, cat-back exhaust
Clutch, lightweight flywheel and Quaife
Lighter wheels and sticky tires like Falken Azenis Sport.

To save money-skip the exhaust header, ported and polished heads, schrick cam, ECU, any ignition upgrade, any rebored throttlebody. Saves about $3000.

Suspension upgrades will help with the handling but won't be a factor much for your 0-60 test.

The other test is a quarter mile test which sounds like it could be done in around 14 seconds with the right start and conditions.

 

I have found wheel hop to be a problem at launch, due to excessivley compliant fron suspension bushings. Eliminated by polyurethane front control arm bushings. The quaife will also help minimize wheelspin

 

While I don't see 0-60 as a highly important determinant of peformance in what I seek for my MCS, there are some FWD rides getting low 5's, and with some mods, dipping below into the 4's. The SRT4 comes to mind, and its Mopar options...

I would think that a MINI, properly set-up, could do the same. While weight/hp can be made the same or better than an SRT4, our torque is woefully low in comparison. The stock SC is already being maxed with 19% reduction pullies... That level of performance or grunt is seemingly going to require a SC replacement (to a different SC, or turbo). Minus changing the displacement, the blower and the 1.6 are the limiting factors in creating big power...

While G-Techs have been shown not be accurate, it seems from what I've read, they are consistent, and for the purposes of this comparison, I trust Brian's findings. Whether one wants to spend that much money for such is a whole different story...

 

I agree with TonyB. The numbers for the Mini are usually inflated by car magazines. I have seen as high as 8.2 seconds for a MCS 0-60. This is ridiculous. The published result is 6.9seconds, but I have seen as low as 6.7seconds. The SRT-4 can get into the 4's with 300hp and 300lbs of torque at the wheels, which is not so hard to do with that car. What I really like about the SRT-4 is that the manufacturers hp ratings are usually lower than at the wheels on a dyno. A SRT-4 with a $300 Stage1 kit can get 250hp and 260 lbs at the wheels. It is a front wheel drive car with equal length drive shafts (like the Mini) and a Quaife differential and even at 5.4 seconds for 0-60 there is very little torque steer and it is quite manageable. I think when we see the LSD come out in January we will be suprised at the result of off the line acceleration as the power goes up. An '03 SRT-4 without the Quaife is quite different in off the line acceleration as an '04 SRT-4 with the Quaife. I think getting 250-260hp at the wheels on the Mini with a decent amount of torque can get the car in the very low 5's.

 

I agree with you 100%, minihune. At this point in time, the above mods seem to be pretty much a waste of time ($400-1000 per piece for only a couple of HP). The ECU is the only one that can make decent power but you're still better of with the 19% and no ECU - it'll give you more torque for 1/3 the price of ECU and 15%.

 

For those of you who know who I am, you'll realize that I don't drive this car for speed at all. In fact, I'd much prefer to simply drop weight if it was legal for "Stock".

There was two main reasons I believe he modified his car this way:
1) To develop a sleeper, which he has thoroughly suceeded in.
2) To make a car, with such cool character and great out of the box handling and concept, a good bit faster.

Was it worth what he spent for the numbers? Probably not. But I only tested it at MY request, he didn't care as long as it was significantly faster.

Another clarification: I said "at least" one second faster. I'm pretty sure it will be capable of 1.5 once the car is actually broken in He's got 2500 miles on it. My car dropped .3-.4 between 3000 and 10,000 miles driven in the same ambient temperature.

As for the suspension mods? Well, good luck with them. I purposely told him to NOT change the suspension on the car until there's much more R&D done. I challenge any and all of you to show me two identical cars, with exception to the suspension (spring, shocks, sways), and have the suspension car run a faster autocross course.
If and when you do, I'll recommend that suspension to him :smile: .

He dropped his unsprung weight 21lbs per corner, that'll do for now.

We had some quarter times in the low 14's, but I'll wait until another time when starts are good, the temperature is a tad lower, and the car's broken-in.

So you know, there are other benefits to mods besides the numbers. For example, his power was more linear than mine. The car didn't actually "feel" that much faster because of this. So, the G-Tech was pretty shocking to me, especially that first run with traction control and a bog that was a 5.7!

This car is clearly a highway sleeper with it's immediate power in any gear.

Brian

 

to everyone, our beloved MINI's will never have great 0-60 times because of the gear ratio. remember the Mini Mania Car? It was said to have 240 hp (prob. not though) and ran a 0-60 time in 5.9 sec. Still not that great considering the hp amount in such a small car. Of course if my car was this fast I couldn't ask for anything more. There was an entire post on this subject

And to Garfield, yes you are probably right about magazines, but most of us use it as a comparison to other vehicles. so it doesn't matter if they are heavy or what not because the same can be said about every other car they have tested no?

 

Well......I would like to know which 220-240HP cars that you can buy that would be faster than 5.5 - 5.9 secs for 0-60 time. I believe there is not a lot out there (S2000 ?).

Alex

 

BMW '99-'00 M roadsters/ M coupes. 0-60 in 5.2 to 5.1 seconds. Then again on they dyno these things, although rated at the stock 240 hp of the E36 M3, ended up having 10% more hp than the M3's stock (so morel ike 260hp 260lb-ft). The car is RWD with a LSD but my coupe weighed 3050lbs when it was stock.

Lotus Esprit S4 was a 264hp car that weighed over 3200lbs... 0-60 in about 5 seconds even.

3rd gen RX-7's 255hp, 2700lbs, 0-60 in around 5s even.

Those are 3-4 off the top of my head. Yes they all have moe hp but then again they also have large weight penalties (except the RX-7).

I think a big factor is the LSD, FWD, and tire width.

Patrick

 

So lets say the above mentioned MINI has about 230-235hp. I think given the mods that would be a good estimate. I use this number in comparison to Randy Webb's car dynoed at 218 with a lot more done to it.

If the car really runs 5.5 0-60 I have to say that is fast.
If you look at cars currently produced.......there is not a lot around.

http://www.cars-cars-cars.org/0-60-Times-Calculator.htm

This link already shows that you are faster than a Boxster S. Same HP level a lot faster if you can get the power on the street.

My point is that you can not really say that the MINI is not a fast car. If you compared it to other cars in the 163HP range.....so MINI without any mods....it is not slow either compared to others.

And...yes the MINI is lighter compared to other modern cars currently on the market......

 

the SRT-4 is another example. much faster 0-60.

not saying i care so much about it, just making a pt. thats all

 

Don't forget to put a bag over your head so no one sees you in that appliance 4 door WRX

 

230HP @ 5.8 secs..... for SRT4. Well start modding it and it will become a rocket.

How about this one (SUV):

http://www.import-heaven.net/specs_s...r_2.5_xt.shtml

Less power...bigger car....SUV and 5.3 secs 0-60 and 1/4 mile is already a 13.9 and an Audi S4 (340 HP) does it in actual 13.7 secs. BTW....factory ratings for WRX is 5.6 secs.
What is real now?

Alex

 

As far as the magazines go, you need to read the details. No, they don't test a lot of other cars with EVERY option and HEAVY drivers in light cars. Sometimes they do, and you need to keep it in mind when that happens.

As a matter of fact, one particular test showed who drove each car, and the heaviest guy drove the MINI!?

Many people never read the article, they only look at the numbers. Wholly crap! Remember the Buick Grand National doing 0-60 in 4.3 seconds??? Yeah, did you notice it was a turbo in BELOW freezing temperature testing?
Boy, how many people ran out to buy the car based on that?

I'm saying that there are ALWAYS too many variables in magazine tests to do comparisons. Do you ever read the temp and altitude stats?
Have you ever noticed the number of letters to editors that ask how they achieved a certain 0-60 time once but something different the next?

Lastly, many of them are simply writers, not drivers... There's a lot to be said for someone knowing the car, and they often admit that.

Not a cermon, just a thought...

Brian

 

Brian,

This is the same advice I give our students at our local BMWCCA DEs. The strange thing is no one takes my advice! We have lots of the local MINI guys going ***** nilly on modding their cars and they have to keep learning how to drive it after every mod. I tell them to leave it stock, master the car, then slowly add mods and master those also before doing more.

A funny sight was one of our instructors in a fairly stock E30 318 cabriolet lapping a LT1 Vette with 350hp!

Btw, when I had my MCS, I tried to get the Supertrapp installed on it and the muffler shops would not do so since it was not considered a muffler. The only way they would have done the job was to weld the plates onto the muffler!

Bryan

 

I weighed mine in with no gas at Peru at 2456!!!