So I thought about this and does it mean that the IDC is less of a change than boost pressure? Since using strictly boost caused it to run rich. What values for IDC are these motors producing under different loads? What would the injection amount be using 100% IDC as the input?

 

I've been trying to stay on top of this thread for months, but it doesn't seem that this specific question has been answered. So, at the risk of being redundant.....
What would be the expected performance gain of a JB+ on a stock 2013 JCW running 93 octane? Also, what would be the recommended setting to stay safe?

Any personal experience or educated estimates would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

Are those of you running the JB+ in it's standard/default mode (50%) using, or feel the need to have, the CAN tool to clear codes (particularly if any hidden tuner codes exist, if that's a thing) or anything?

Currently, I'm running the JB+ in 50% mode and I'm stock other than the VIP intake. I love it but didn't know if it would be necessary for me to get this cable.

The JB+ seems like a great product so far and I'm loving the power. I wonder how awesome it is turned up a little.

 

if you plan on turning it up a little, i'd get the can tool or any tool that can at least read timing. the main issue you'll run into with upping the dial on the JB+ is that if the car senses knocking, it will pull some of that timing advance. some guys run higher octane fuel, a 30% mix of e85, and/or water/meth to counter the knocking, but without monitoring it, you won't know if you're pushing your car beyond the limit where it starts pulling timing.
so in short, the can tool does more than read/delete/suppress codes. it can hijack your gauges so that you can see what's going on under the hood. if you keep the dial at 50%, it's not likely you'll have any issues. but i'm of the belief that you're better off safe than sorry.

 

Good answer jomama! I've run w/m before so I get the monitoring bit, mostly. I saw one person was using dashcommand which I assume was going through a bluetooth/wifi obd reader. So, monitoring your LTFTs and timing angles is important, I think particularly as you said if you bump up the setting.

In this case, for monitoring, that's just a standard reader and not necessarily a CAN tool, correct? I used a cable paired with dash command on my iPhone to see boost and things before on this car, so I want to see if there's any specific advantage to the CAN tool that Burger sells with the JB+. Specifically I used a cable similar to a Kiwi Wifi cable ( ).

It sounds like I'll want something again to pair with an iPad/Laptop in-car to monitor things if I bump up the setting.

Otherwise, it seems the CAN tool can clear some of the hidden codes that a more standard reader cannot. I do have an "Automatic Link" (automatic.com) that will read and allow the clearing of codes, but I'm to understand there are hidden codes that cannot be cleared with a more "standard" reader.

I'm going to stick with the default setting for now.

 

IDC will be at it's highest towards redline. It's linear. Now boost, for us is all over the place.
We have more midrange boost which tapers down towards redline.

The good thing about running off both is that meth delivery will be linear with IDC. Throw boost signal into the mix and you get extra injection in the midrange, which is needed since we make most boost there, then will go back towards the IDC slope.

The HFS 2 and 3 do so as well, they are just preset. 70/30 I believe.

I probably ran rich because a ton was getting dumped in the midrange but there wasn't enough injection in the upper RPM's, not enough fueling up top to advance the timing.

 

For the JCW the recommended setting is 11 o'clock or one notch less than default. I would guesstimate that you would see 10-15 hp. The JCW are different than S and GPs so definitely email Terry at BMS for his advice.

 

Ok I believe that I have a understanding of timing with regard to the JB+ but just what to make sure that I don't have a gross conceptual error so here are some comments, observations and questions:

1.) Is it correct to say that the computer is trying to have maximum advance for efficiency purposes and will reduce timing to prevent knock? Is this done on some kind of mapping or is it purely sensor driven?

2.) Timing is only really important when under WOT and boost. When I'm monitoring timing during normal city driving it's all over the place from extreme negative values to extreme positive values.

3.) Is it correct to say that monitoring these values during normal driving is not important and that it's only important to monitor timing during WOT/boost conditions looking for stepped reductions and that once you know how the car responds for WOT and certain JB+/fuel/temp settings periodic monitoring is sufficient.

4.) Is the value of timing advance important or just that it doesn't retard under WOT. For example if my timing is +5 degrees is that worse than +10?

5.) It's difficult to monitor this stuff on a 100% basis and would rather only have to do it when settings or ambient conditions change.

6.) The JB+ has no affect during non-boost conditions.

Thanks guys.

 

+1. I would like to know the answers to these very good questions myself.

Sent from my iPhone using NAMotoring

 

Timing is mapped on boost within the DME. Added on to that mapping is a long and short term timing trim. The DME attempts to keep timing as close to its maximum set point (which, is close to MBT) with the least amount of knock sensor feedback.

Timing is critical in all phases of engine operation. As far as the JB+ dial setting goes, we're only talking about monitoring timing under full boost at higher RPM.

When looking for knock what we're looking for is repeated 3 degree timing drops at higher RPM. The actual timing value itself is not overly relevant to evaluating knock. The actual timing value will vary greatly based on octane used, weather, elevation, etc.

Correct.

 

I tried different settings on the JB+ and this is what I'm seeing.

30% e85

Dial 30% WOT - boost 13-14, timing 4, afr 13-13.2:1

Dial 50%, WOT - boost 14, timing 2, afr 12.8-13:1

Dial 70%, WOT - boost 16, timing 0, afr 12.3-12.5:1

Dial 90% WOT - boost 19, timing 0 but at higher rpms -4 to -5, afr 11.8-12.1:1 When I reach higher RPMs the car starts to flatten out and lose power.

Dial 100% WOT boost 20-21 timing 0@4000rpm -5 to -6 over 4500rpm, afr 11.3-11.8:1 again, the car starts to flatten out and lose power at higher rpm.

The lowest the LTFT goes to is 1 - 1.5

Right now i have it set on 70% running 30% e85. Is this a good setting?

 

LFTR? (googling) You have a liquid fluoride thorium reactor in your car? :-). Or is that long term fuel trim? What is the range for that value? What does 1.5 correspond to as a percentage?

So based on your observations, is the car running out of fuel using 30% E85 before it can apply max timing advance which Terry said is close to MBT?

Were you thinking of doing meth injection? Wonder how much more that would get you...

Did anyone else see the article about the Peugeot with 270 crank hp with a prince engine in it that costs $13k more to build than our engine? Any educated guesses as to what that means is the max this application can take and still go ~80k miles?

 

I personally do like to keep timing positive and rolling up towards redline. You could try 60-70% with a stronger E85 mix. Like 40%, for example.

 

Looks like I may be able to turn the pot up a little more myself then. In repeat WOT pulls in 3rd timing gets to 9.5 at the top of the gear. I like seeing 17-18 psi under load with the pot only turned up one past the stock setting. I wonder what I may see at the next point.

70/30 - 91/E85

 

Thanks Terry!

I will add some more e85 tonight and test it again tomorrow. I'll post some before and after number.

I have to say, setting the JB+ at 100% is so much funner to drive, the problem is that I can't keep my foot from accelerating over 4k rpm. The pick up at 20-21psi is incredible!

 

Terry, one more question, would it be a good idea to run colder plugs? if so which do you recommend? Thank you.

 

Not sure if it's been asked but what are you using to log the data?

 

I use an iPhone and ScanXL (there is a free evaluation copy) or DashCommand (was on sale for $10) from Palmer Performance. You'll need a OBD2 wifi or bluetooth or wired connection to your phone or laptop. An Android version of DashCommand is available too I believe.

 

Cheers

 

Figured it would be a good idea in case hell freezes over and my wife decides to fill up the car

 

Hey Terry, quick question. Was the JB+ a financial success? You don't have to go into detail if you don't want. I just didn't know how many units total you sold vs. development cost/production. I know there was a rough stage 1 that was out being tested, was this scraped because it wasn't worth the time?

 

And like many happy JB+ owners (I'm sure) I am always telling co-workers and friends about burger.
Anything to help make a stage 1 possible

 

I waqs using a laptop connected to Scantool but now i'm using my Droid with a bluetooth OBD
and Torque Pro https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...l.torque&hl=en

I'll try the Dashcommand and see if I like it better.

 

+1 on that! I tell everyone about it that other MINI owners who own a N18. Gas stations, stores, fast food(don't eat it often), ect. I'm waiting on a stage 1 for sure!

 

an absolute no brainer for N18 cars. I think we're pretty spoiled with the JB+. no shipping ECUs to and from, and worrying about warranty issues if something goes awry. it's truly a plug-n-play application. can't argue against the value either.
in order for us to realize how good we have it, I think we all should pull the JB+ off for a couple hrs a month. no better way to understand the improvements than when it's gone! =)