Drivetrain Revolution Mini Works goes 291.7whp!!!!
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
What dyno reads flywheel HP... The only way to measure HP on a car short of unbolting the motor and bolting that up to a dyno is to measure it at the wheels. You can "Guess" the flywheel HP through drivetrain losses, but there isn't a dyno out there that can get it spot on.
Like almost every other dyno out there the "Flywheel HP" part assumes that you plug in some correction factor to calculate it. Since the correction factor is 1.00, it multiplies the HP by 1, which means it's unchanged.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
Not to nit pick, but those dynos in Europe "read" wheel horsepower and automatically/magically display "flywheel" figures on their graphs. They do this by figuring in some hypothetical driveline loss. He was correct on this. The only way to get true flywheel power is to put the engine on an engine dyno (which requires removing the block).
The dynometers in Europe, are configured to show flywheel numbers and is common practice. ALL US dynos can be configured to display flywheel numbers. Regardless of which country the dyno is in the chassis dyno would have to takes its wheel horsepower rating and use a correction for drivetrain loss to display a flywheel rating.
P.S.
Whats up Blake! Thanks for the support.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,902
Likes: 2
From: SoCaL (Agoura Hills)
An engine dyno reads flywheel horspower. A chassis dyno will display (estimated) flywheel horsepower as well if you select the option on your computer. A chassis dyno will display many differnt kinds of graphs with differnt kinds of correction factors and you can even select the smoothing of the line. So seeing FLYWHEEL HP on a screen shot of a dynograph and asking if he is posting flywheel numbers or whp numbers is not absurd. It is absurd to just assume that when something is clearly labled FLYWHEEL HP, that it is actually wheel horsepower.
It was explained before, and will probably be explained again. On this particular dyno, it displays flywheel HP, along with the correction factor applied (In this case TCF = 1.00).
Running some quick advanced mathematics in my head, what's ANYTHING multiplied by 1...
Hmm, it seems that 291.7 x 1.00 is still 291.7.
I'm being a ***** cause I know you know this stuff. You've dynoed enough cars in your life... There's no need to try to poke holes in other people's achievements, just be happy the MINI performance market is finally going somewhere.
That is correct. Every chassis dyno (regardless of its location in the world) does read wheel horsepower. Every engine dyno (regardless of its location in the world) reads in flywheel horsepower.
The dynometers in Europe, are configured to show flywheel numbers and is common practice. ALL US dynos can be configured to display flywheel numbers. Regardless of which country the dyno is in the chassis dyno would have to takes its wheel horsepower rating and use a correction for drivetrain loss to display a flywheel rating.
The dynometers in Europe, are configured to show flywheel numbers and is common practice. ALL US dynos can be configured to display flywheel numbers. Regardless of which country the dyno is in the chassis dyno would have to takes its wheel horsepower rating and use a correction for drivetrain loss to display a flywheel rating.
Not a fan of the flywheel conversion practice because there's no way to know for sure what the drivetrain losses are. I've seen people on NAM using 17%+ for drivetrain losses on a 6-Speed, it's nowhere CLOSE to 17%. 11-12% is what most people agree on.
So an overzealous dyno operator that applies a VERY generous TCF factor completely throws off the dyno results.
Last edited by Guest; May 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM.
Coordinator :: Low Country MINIs
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,874
Likes: 0
From: charleston, SC
buy your car was strong from the factory, not much room for improvements, what about tq and power delivery? 
Well it had MTH, but that was a big joke in terms of a "tune"
Maybe both of ours were "Wednesday Builds"
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 551
Likes: 1
From: Santa Ana, CA
Your car is way strong. How did you break it in? Were you real hard on it or did you try to follow the instructions? Have you had your compression pressures checked? Just trying to figure out why its so strong.
Maybe the previous owner put a tune on it?
When I pulled 193 (if i remember correctly) before I put Jans head on I got so much BS from everyone. They all said it was impossible for a car with my mods to pull that. The mod's were 15%,CAI,OBX and a Miltek.
I love when people are proven wrong .
LB
When I pulled 193 (if i remember correctly) before I put Jans head on I got so much BS from everyone. They all said it was impossible for a car with my mods to pull that. The mod's were 15%,CAI,OBX and a Miltek.
I love when people are proven wrong
.LB
Last edited by Longboard Mini; May 20, 2008 at 07:03 PM.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
You're right, but when a vendor posts WHP, and customers post WHP, I'd probably assume it's WHP (Since it's a topic that's been discussed 20+ times in the various threads that have been posted).
It was explained before, and will probably be explained again. On this particular dyno, it displays flywheel HP, along with the correction factor applied (In this case TCF = 1.00).
Running some quick advanced mathematics in my head, what's ANYTHING multiplied by 1...
Hmm, it seems that 291.7 x 1.00 is still 291.7.
I'm being a ***** cause I know you know this stuff. You've dynoed enough cars in your life... There's no need to try to poke holes in other people's achievements, just be happy the MINI performance market is finally going somewhere.
^--- That's pretty much what I said before.
Not a fan of the flywheel conversion practice because there's no way to know for sure what the drivetrain losses are. I've seen people on NAM using 17%+ for drivetrain losses on a 6-Speed, it's nowhere CLOSE to 17%. 11-12% is what most people agree on.
So an overzealous dyno operator that applies a VERY generous TCF factor completely throws off the dyno results.
It was explained before, and will probably be explained again. On this particular dyno, it displays flywheel HP, along with the correction factor applied (In this case TCF = 1.00).
Running some quick advanced mathematics in my head, what's ANYTHING multiplied by 1...
Hmm, it seems that 291.7 x 1.00 is still 291.7.
I'm being a ***** cause I know you know this stuff. You've dynoed enough cars in your life... There's no need to try to poke holes in other people's achievements, just be happy the MINI performance market is finally going somewhere.
^--- That's pretty much what I said before.
Not a fan of the flywheel conversion practice because there's no way to know for sure what the drivetrain losses are. I've seen people on NAM using 17%+ for drivetrain losses on a 6-Speed, it's nowhere CLOSE to 17%. 11-12% is what most people agree on.
So an overzealous dyno operator that applies a VERY generous TCF factor completely throws off the dyno results.
Your reading comprehension is lacking.
In my first post in which I questioned Jan on wether or not his numbers were flywheel or wheel horsepower I said, I APOLOGIZE IF THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN COVERED BEFORE.
What is so freaking difficult to understand about all of this. I asked a question... i even put my kiddy gloves on to try to ensure that this entire conversation didn't happen... what do you know... it happend. I guess thats NAM and the MINI community for ya.
Yes, you are correct about the correction factors and dyno opperators throwing them off etc... but what does that have to do with the cost of tea in china?
I asked him a point blank question... I wasn't asking him what correction factor he was using vs. what others were using... wether or not he was using a chassis dyno vs. an engine dyno... or what correction factor he was using.
I asked are you posting in wheel or flywheel because your screen shot says flywheel... so which is it? I didn't doubt that he could make that much power etc... I was just trying to understand what he was posting
Boy am I sorry I even asked...
And you are right I have ran and opperated dynos quiet a bit in my short life... but I have never used the almighty "DynaPak" so I am unfamiliar with the user interface with there software...
It was a simple question the deserved a simple answer.
and thanks for the math lesson... i don't know how I would ever accomplished anything in my life had I not know that 1 multiplied by X was still X.
And believe it or not. I truely hope Jan is successful. If he isn't, there is ZERO hope for the MINI community. He is clearly the most innovative tunner still in the market, and he is very active in the community so I personally think he deserves the most business. He knows his stuff and doesn't over promise and underdeliver like a certin alpha numeric tunner. I have lots of respect for what Jan because he hasn't and hopefully won't ever create ******** products. Even if he did create something that wasn't what it was cracked up to be I truly believe that he would either make it right through improvement of the product or he would pull the product. I hope he can stay in business doing what he loves and provide himself with a goodlife for himself and his family or family to come (not sure on his marital or parental status)There is almost nothing better in life than doing what you love doing and being successful at it, and being able to live your desired lifestyle.
ok, thats long enough
Damn
I feel bad. I only pulled 212.3 WHP 185.8 Tq with Jans tune on my GP. All it has is a RMW Header and exhaust. Plus a slight belt slip.
SPDinNY
Your wife talking to you yet?
I feel bad. I only pulled 212.3 WHP 185.8 Tq with Jans tune on my GP. All it has is a RMW Header and exhaust. Plus a slight belt slip.
SPDinNY
Your wife talking to you yet?
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,902
Likes: 2
From: SoCaL (Agoura Hills)
GEEZ...
Your reading comprehension is lacking.
In my first post in which I questioned Jan on wether or not his numbers were flywheel or wheel horsepower I said, I APOLOGIZE IF THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN COVERED BEFORE.
What is so freaking difficult to understand about all of this. I asked a question... i even put my kiddy gloves on to try to ensure that this entire conversation didn't happen... what do you know... it happend. I guess thats NAM and the MINI community for ya.
Yes, you are correct about the correction factors and dyno opperators throwing them off etc... but what does that have to do with the cost of tea in china?
I asked him a point blank question... I wasn't asking him what correction factor he was using vs. what others were using... wether or not he was using a chassis dyno vs. an engine dyno... or what correction factor he was using.
I asked are you posting in wheel or flywheel because your screen shot says flywheel... so which is it? I didn't doubt that he could make that much power etc... I was just trying to understand what he was posting
Boy am I sorry I even asked...
And you are right I have ran and opperated dynos quiet a bit in my short life... but I have never used the almighty "DynaPak" so I am unfamiliar with the user interface with there software...
It was a simple question the deserved a simple answer.
and thanks for the math lesson... i don't know how I would ever accomplished anything in my life had I not know that 1 multiplied by X was still X.
And believe it or not. I truely hope Jan is successful. If he isn't, there is ZERO hope for the MINI community. He is clearly the most innovative tunner still in the market, and he is very active in the community so I personally think he deserves the most business. He knows his stuff and doesn't over promise and underdeliver like a certin alpha numeric tunner. I have lots of respect for what Jan because he hasn't and hopefully won't ever create ******** products. Even if he did create something that wasn't what it was cracked up to be I truly believe that he would either make it right through improvement of the product or he would pull the product. I hope he can stay in business doing what he loves and provide himself with a goodlife for himself and his family or family to come (not sure on his marital or parental status)There is almost nothing better in life than doing what you love doing and being successful at it, and being able to live your desired lifestyle.
ok, thats long enough
Your reading comprehension is lacking.
In my first post in which I questioned Jan on wether or not his numbers were flywheel or wheel horsepower I said, I APOLOGIZE IF THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN COVERED BEFORE.
What is so freaking difficult to understand about all of this. I asked a question... i even put my kiddy gloves on to try to ensure that this entire conversation didn't happen... what do you know... it happend. I guess thats NAM and the MINI community for ya.
Yes, you are correct about the correction factors and dyno opperators throwing them off etc... but what does that have to do with the cost of tea in china?
I asked him a point blank question... I wasn't asking him what correction factor he was using vs. what others were using... wether or not he was using a chassis dyno vs. an engine dyno... or what correction factor he was using.
I asked are you posting in wheel or flywheel because your screen shot says flywheel... so which is it? I didn't doubt that he could make that much power etc... I was just trying to understand what he was posting
Boy am I sorry I even asked...
And you are right I have ran and opperated dynos quiet a bit in my short life... but I have never used the almighty "DynaPak" so I am unfamiliar with the user interface with there software...
It was a simple question the deserved a simple answer.
and thanks for the math lesson... i don't know how I would ever accomplished anything in my life had I not know that 1 multiplied by X was still X.
And believe it or not. I truely hope Jan is successful. If he isn't, there is ZERO hope for the MINI community. He is clearly the most innovative tunner still in the market, and he is very active in the community so I personally think he deserves the most business. He knows his stuff and doesn't over promise and underdeliver like a certin alpha numeric tunner. I have lots of respect for what Jan because he hasn't and hopefully won't ever create ******** products. Even if he did create something that wasn't what it was cracked up to be I truly believe that he would either make it right through improvement of the product or he would pull the product. I hope he can stay in business doing what he loves and provide himself with a goodlife for himself and his family or family to come (not sure on his marital or parental status)There is almost nothing better in life than doing what you love doing and being successful at it, and being able to live your desired lifestyle.
ok, thats long enough
