Hi. I will be installing M7 springs (lowers car by 33mm), a whiteline 22mm rear swaybar, and 215/40/17 Eagle F1s (lowers car by 6mm). I read a thread where the guy said:
"After lowering most people do take there cars to get aligned. Ask your alignment guy to please loosen the rear trailing arm bushing bolt and then tighten it back up when the it's up on the lift (when the suspension is fully loaded). This will neutralize any preload that is on that rear trailing arm bushing from lowering the car. Otherwise the car will be preloaded and may have increased and unwanted rebound."

I intend on the rear trailing arm bushing bolt etc, and re-aligning the wheels. But i've also heard about people changing camber settings to improve handling/roadholding. Can anyone advise me on how to set up everything after i install the springs, swaybar, and tires?

 

on 04 and earlier cars, there is no adjustment for camber/caster from the factory. in the rear, aftermarket camber links top and bottom will get the back fully adjustable, in the front it takes camber plates, whether on top of the stock struts or an aftermarket coilover set up. on 05/06 cars there is a small amount of adjustment on the rears from factory. toe is the only front adjustment possible from the factory set up.

 

mine's an 05.

So should i get them to set the toe at the front to something specific, and the back cambers set to something specific?

 

i think this is a gandini question...

 

OK, even though this is exactly what I didn't want to happen...
Being unhappy with the alignment after lowering with HSport springs, I decided to go the camber plate and control arm route. I PMd onasled (Greg) and asked him for advice, as I have done earlier with brakes. He kindly sent me camber and toe specs which I implemented to within equipment accuracy. The car now handles substantially better than it did before. I've posted those specs elsewhere, but here they are again:
Front: -1.9 camber, 1/8" total toe out
Rear: -1.3 camber, 3/32" total toe in
I've seen very similar specs on other cars posted on NAM.

good luck.

 

Wait.....
Phil, I don't think those are the numbers that I suggested. Though I did suggest a place to start, maybe this is were you have found the "sweet spot" in 'your' car.
1/8 toe out is a bit aggressive for the street and I would not 'toe in' the rears if I was running that in the front. Would most likely be at 0 in the rear if I was 1/8 out in the front.

As I stated to Phil in a PM, there are really only good places to start in suspension setups. So much of it depends on; you car, your suspension upgrades, your tires, where you drive, how you drive and on and on. If you have no front camber adjustment in your car then try and run very little negative in the rear. Not sure what the Mini is in the front with factory pickup points when lowered, but that's one of the first things you need to find out before you can start asking what to do with the rear.

 

How does the toe setting in front and rear affect the turn-in/handling characteristics?

 

Lowering will not change camber on the front. Stock spec range for front camber is between -.1 and -.9, mine started out with more on the driver’s side than passenger’s side when new and has evened out (-.5 for both) over time (go figure). Toe spec is .13 degrees to .18, total toe .25 to .35 (I like the .30 toe in area) which equates to straight line & sweeper stability when combined with a tad more rear toe in.

Lowering will defiantly change both camber and toe settings for the rear. Stock spec range for rear camber is -.5 to -1.5 (different alignment machine software programs will show different ranges such as -1 to -2). I like -1.5 the most and no camber settings below -1.1. Ride quality begins to suffer around -2 but it sure sticks. Rear spec for toe is .13 degrees to .27 for a total of .27 to .53, I like a little more than .40 degrees total toe in for the tracking reason mentioned earlier.

The settings I like happen to be middle ground stock settings (except for rear camber) which are great for the street.

 

Both camber and toe do change in the front when lowereing..

 

bump...

 

There’s only a minor change in caster in the front when lowering the stock suspension, camber is unchanged, but the steering wheel may need to be re-centered if that’s bothersome.

I tried a little toe out for the front and neutral toe in the rear which was fine for playing around in the parking lot but on the street the car had a tendency to follow road irregularities and grooved pavement was a real handful.

 

Keep in mind the factory adjustable rear arms are for 05's with a Jan or Feb 05 and later build. I have an Oct 04 build model 05 and mine do not have it. I just went through this as I put on the m7 springs at the dragon. My car is currently in air for clutch work and I had Eric at Heliz ship me a set of h-sport rear arms and those were installed on Friday to adjust the camber issue.

From what my service guy said the factory ones are a pain to adjust and the ones I gave him to install were ten times easier to install and adjust.

 

The stock settings for toe are both toe in front and rear. This provides a smooth and stable ride with predictable handling for the average driver.

From http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4
Toe can also be used to alter a vehicle's handling traits. Increased toe-in will typically result in reduced oversteer, help steady the car and enhance high-speed stability. Increased toe-out will typically result in reduced understeer, helping free up the car, especially during initial turn-in while entering a corner.

---------------
For performance driving many of us choose slight toe out in the front and zero toe in the rear.

 

I'm not sure how and why you are stating this as it's just not true. Camber changes constantly with the up and down movement of the strut. In fact this is the problem with a strut type suspension. If we were running unequal A arms then what you say would be 'closer' to the truth. Negative camber increases when lowering a Mini until the lower control arm becomes parallel to the ground at which point when the car continues to get lower, negative camber will decrease. This is the main reason that true race cars are not using strut style suspension.
The same thing happens with Toe. The steering wheel should never go off center and if it does then you have one uneven car.


What were you toe setting when you did this?

 

Sid,
I am far from any expert on this stuff and usually let someone like meb give the good answers, but this is what I understand.
Front toe out will help turn in and also help neutralize toe in under acceleration, which is what happens in FWD cars.
As was mentioned, toe in keeps the car very stable on the street, real hands off the wheel stuff, but again as was stated makes for more understeer. Toe out and the car will tend to wander a bit more on the street, but make for quicker handling characteristics.
Rear toe is almost a fine tune on the handling after front toe is set.

 

Thanks for all your replies guys

One question though. I'm good with engines and stuff, but with suspension i'm not as knowledgeable.

I drive fast and like corners. I'm getting, as i said above, Eagle F1 GSD3s (215/40/17) and a Whiteline 22mm adjustable rear swaybar and M7 Springs. Once i have it all fitted, what should i tell the mechanic to do with regards to camber/toe settings? I don't want to by any camber plates or anything else. I'm looking for quick turn in, no understeer (no "easy car to drive, hands off the wheel" crap). More track-like settings

Thanks again

 

Thanks for the great answer to the first half of my question Greg...can you tell me how toe in/out in the rear affects the Mini's handling?

Thanks

Sid

 

sid- it's time you play with RC cars and get the fundametals of
setting up toe, camber, castor, roll center, spring rate vs damp
rate, etc. you can drive at the limit without killing
yourself. hehehe

rear toe-in setting is used for carrying through the front toe
settings especially for straightline stability and how quickly or
slowly you want the rear to react to the initial turn-in, mid turn,
inputs (both steering and throttle) and how the car plants its
rear during full throttle. the closer you get to zero toe-in on
the rear, the faster the rear will react to your inputs. if you
use toe-out on the rear, your car will begin to wander quite
excessively.

if you use too much toe-in on the rear tends to bind and cause
excessive tire wear (feathering).

 

First, let me absolve onasled (Greg ) of any responsibility regarding my alignment settings. He gave me great advice, as always, and I tried to achieve the settings he sent me, but to be honest, and I spent an hour under the car with my alignment guy (also a MINI enthusiast, but not into mods so much) and it was incredibly difficult to get it all set up, as each adjustment with one control arm affected the settings for both toe and camber on both sides of the car (not surprising really, as this is an integrated system, despite the notion that the suspension is independent.) We were aiming for second order accuracy, also. Anyway, I am totally responsible for the alignment of my car, and ...
I am totally satisfied with it. I ventured up the Sandia Crest road this morning, and it's 13 miles of twisty roads that gains 3000' elevation to reach over 10,000 feet at the summit. Despite being down on HP due to the elevation (something I live with starting one mile high) I was able to carve S bends at speeds and with confidence I had previously not been able to achieve. My car was predictable, turns in very quickly and does not understeer too much under acceleration coming out of a curve. It felt hunkered down and glued.
I don't know if this is the best setting for my car, but it handles far better than ever before, especially after I lowered with springs without any adjustments. Before my latest mods I had some toe out in the rear with stock settings on the front and this seemed to increase the understeer in turns under acceleration such that I was scared...
I also don't care about wear on my tires. I run soft gummy summer tires anyway, and if they last 15000 miles I'm throwing a party! At just over $100 each at Edge Racing, they are about as consumable as gasoline, or oil.
In the end it's all personal choice, experience and opinion. But I was asked...
cheers,

 

onasled, I understand the theories behind your beliefs and agree there is a camber difference between full extension and full contraction of the front wheel and that camber and toe are dynamic , but alignment machine measurements in my case have not supported a difference in front camber within the distance afforded by the three springs sets I used compared to stock. The front suspension articulates differently than the rear which is why rear camber is affected more from lowering. I’ve had alignments with stock springs, H-Sports, Tein H-tech, and Alta springs. My first camber reading for the front was -.6 on the driver’s side and -.4 on the passenger with H-Sport springs. All other front camber measurements with the other springs have shown negative .5 for each side. Perhaps the M7 springs will slam etalj’s car enough to measure a camber change on the front but I can predict from my experience it will be an inconsequential difference. Soon, I’ll have another alignment with different springs and see if my camber “truth” remained consistent.

For the question about front toe in post #14 it was .8 degrees out.

 

ok my brain is starting to overheat here. How about i just install all this stuff on my car, reset that rear trailing arm bushing bolt thingimabob, and come back with impressions of how the car behaves in the corners?

By the way, i like the sound of a predictable handling car that feels absolutely planted. I don't want something that has a tendency to oversteer and understeer. I wanna be able to create understeer and oversteer if and when i want, (if that's possible )

 

Good comment.--I have found exactly the same thing as you have.
This is exactly what would be expected of this type suspension configuration.

 

When I had the Hsport/Konis, my settings were:

Front -2.2 camber, 0 toe
Rear -1.6 camber, 0 toe

I think I'll dial some positive front toe back in when I get my Megans corner balanced tomorrow and maybe leave the rear at 0...

What would you guys recommend for my toe setting? Thanks...

BTW Ken...My Mini RC is still sittin on the shelf but I'll get on it

 

if you're talking about the M03, that's not going to net you much experience!
not enough adjustability in stock form.

 

Have respect son I know what I'm doing...