So while I was waiting for my Mini to be built it gave me 2 months of research time on the subject on whether I needed rear adjustable control arms when I lowered my R58. Well I have finally come to a conclusion... on my own.

I am only posting this because there are so many people that say you do.

My guess is that the people that said they NEEDED them was because they were told either by people that sell the parts or their alignment techs because they did not know how to adjust the rear camber (I read somewhere here that an alignment shop told them there were no "adjusters"). In all fairness the Mini eccentric bolt is different looking than your typical eccentric adjuster.

Anyway I lowered mine 2 inches. After I lowered it I adjusted the eccentric bolt to have the least amount of negative camber before I checked the alignment (I do my own alignments). I figured I'd have a ton a negative camber from the research I had done so I might as well make it as little as possible...I was pleasantly surprised!

So with the car lowered 2 inches and the eccentric bolt "maxed" out for the least amount of negative camber, the camber measured -1.2 LR and -1.4 RR which IMO is perfect for street driving and tire wear.


Again I am only posting this because there were so many people that claimed you need rear adjustable controls arms after lowering the Mini even with just lowering springs. I've read post people saying the camber would be anywhere from -2.5 to -3.0 degrees.


Well I hope this helps others that plan on lowering their cars!

 

Could you be so kind as to take a photo or two of this 'eccentric adjuster'? Thank you for your info and taking the time to share it.

 

What is your toe measured at?

 

Sorry but your wrong. You Need rear control arms to get the camber and TOE correct. I've installed 100 sets of lowering springs and put them on the alignment rack and without the arms it's too much camber.

The numbers you measured are not bad, but I'd like to see a printout from a Hunter alignment machine to verify it. Also you'll find if you run neg 1 deg or less you will get even better tire wear in the rear.

All MINI's since 2005 have had the rear camber adjustment from the factory, it's just not enough when we lower the cars. Even with stock springs being able to adjust more neg camber out is better.

I know people do this without control arms, but tires cost more than camber arms so I'm going to keep my customers doing it right.

 

It's on the lower control arm that connects to the spindle. I'll try and get a pic.

 

1/32" in per side. total of 1/16"

 

My camber and toe are correct IMO. I've aligned over a 100 cars between work, my own cars, and cars for autox and the track. I have free access to a Hunter Hawkeye Alignment machine anytime I want but I much prefer using my smart camber gauge and strings. I am so use to doing it this way because there aren't alignment racks at ButtonWillow, Willow Springs, Parump, LHM MSP, parking lots (autox) etc...


I wouldn't run any car with less than 1 degrees of negative camber in the rear unless my front camber was around ZERO which it's not. Running too little neg camber in the rear with a good amount of neg in the front would make most cars tail happy.

BTW running 1.2 and 1.4 neg in the rear will not wear the tires quickly and hardly noticeable from side to side. TOO MUCH TOE is what scrubs tires and that is what increases wear.

Now anything above 2 degrees neg will definitely show signs of uneven wear. Just ask most BMW owners. Most Bimmer rear specs are in the neg 2 degree range. They absolutely chew the inside edges.

Most Mercedes factory rear settings are between neg .9 to -1.9. These cars have a little uneven wear because most benz owners drive their cars like grannies.

Porsche 997s are -1.4 to -1.9. If you drive a Porsche like it's intended, your tire wear is pretty even. If not they do wear a little uneven.


I can almost guarantee you my car is within or close to factory specs. I say almost because I have not looked it up but I know what most Manufacturers set their specs at after 15+ years of doing this. When I am near the Hunter machine, I will pull up the factory specs and post them. Most of the time though I do not even bother setting my car within the manufacturers recommended range. I set it up to my driving style. Since I am new to the Mini crowd, I am not quite sure how the Mini handles. Once I get a little more seat time, I will adjust my alignment accordingly. But as of right now I know my settings WILL NOT hurt my tires. I've been doing this way too long to not know if it is wrong.


BTW, I am not arguing your point about running less neg camber will give you less uneven tire wear. I am saying up to 1.5 and as long as your toe is good, your tire wear should be just fine. But if people wanted PERFECT tire wear from side to side, you might as well set everything around ZERO and only drive in a straight line because if you don't, your cars gonna handle like an OLDSMOBILE and wear the crap outta the outside edges of your tires

 

At present I run -2.2 in front, and -1.5 in back, and the car is quite neutral with normal tire pressures (36f, 38r).

In competition the rear goes to 50-52 psi, which then creates enough rotation to make the car agile on course.

Note too that I run an asymmetrical setup with more rim and tire on the front end. At present that's 225/45-15 RS3 out front and 205/50-15 Star Spec in the back.

The back end on these puppies seems like the tail of a kite - it doesn't do much but add a little stability while the front end works hard!

Fun kite though...

Cheers,

Charlie

 

With JCW springs, the lowest we could get my car's rear camber to was about -1.5 in the back. And we spent probably upwards of 45 min fiddling with the excentric bolt. IIRC, there are 3 bolts you loosen, adjust, and then retighten in the back. We did that 5 or 6 times before we got it close to the lowest camber we could achieve. I autoX my car in a stock class. So I was hoping for less camber for better rotation, and I can't do aftermarket control arms. But it turned out that it didn't really matter. The rear camber setting does not really matter when there is only 1 rear tire on the ground most of the time anyway, and it rotates just fine like that, regardless of rear camber.

 

I've been following this thread, hoping to learn a bit more on this subject.

...recently lowered more with coilovers, and of course have an increase in the rear neg camber...which is good to some extent, because I currently have a wide (9 inch) rear wheel.

but its still a bit more than really needed, so was thinking getting adj control arms, ...tho if its possible to adjust (even a wee bit) with the eccentric bolts would like to try that, for those mentioned doing that..some pics & description of what to turn..etc, would be appreciated

*I'm not that concerned with tire wear, ..have 3 sets of wheels/tires that I change during the year, & raise the coils height with them,.. and do not put lots of hwy miles on car (we bought new in 07 & just coming up on 30K miles)

thanks, J

 

^^^ Adjusting the MINI's rear suspension camber and toe are done with the same bolts. In attempting to adjust just the camber, you also change the toe simultaneously. So it's not something you want to do without an alignment rack. You might end up with toe out in the rear, which would be downright dangerous for most drivers. And nevermind the potential excessive tire wear.

 

^ No, there is an eccentric on the OEM lower control arm for camber. The common thought before was that there was a little bit of range but not very much at all and not enough when you lower the car. The 3 bolts on the trailing arm you mentioned are more used for toe if i recall.

To the OP. That's a lot less camber than I was expecting....nice job. Just a heads up, the OEM arms aren't the strongest at least for R53, so for me that was a factor (plus my early 2005 was not adjustable).

- Andrew

 

[QUOTE=aklucsarits;3567331 In attempting to adjust just the camber, you also change the toe simultaneously. So it's not something you want to do without an alignment rack. You might end up with toe out in the rear, which would be downright dangerous for most drivers. And nevermind the potential excessive tire wear.[/QUOTE]


..well, the amount that I've lowered to recently added neg camber..and as I understand increased the tow in also.

So if using the eccentric bolts to even bring it back just a wee bit...it would also undo at least some of the tow in created by lowering...yes? ..that small of an amount of adjustment (with the stock arms) that you guys describe..couln't possibly result in tow out

And ya, if I did even a lil' bit of the adjustment you guys described...would then take to get alignment.

Sounds like adjusting these eccentric bolts is prolly pretty darn easy...but something I've not messed with yet...so was hoping for some pics and info on what to turn..which way..yadayada.

 

TOE ADJUSTMENT IS NOT done with the same eccentric bolt!

There is a bracket that connects the upper trailing arm to the subframe. The the 3 holes on the bracket are slotted. To adjust the 3 bolts need to be loosened and you have to slide the bracket side to side. There is a special alignment tool for this or you just use a pry bar to move it. Obviously if you don't have the know how how to measure toe, you don't wanna attempt this yourself. If you are even slightly off it can cause ALL kinds of problems. BTW this identical to how you adjust rear toe on some BMWs.

Below is a diagram from realoem.

#7 is the trailing arm bracket. That is where you adjust the toe

#13- There are two #13's. One is the eccentric adjuster and the other is the lower trailing arm where the adjuster is on the car. This is for camber adjustment.

Hope this helps but obviously if you don't have the tools and know-how, your are pretty much screwed anyway without a competent alignment tech

 

Thanks! I was shocked myself. I quadruple checked it because I was in disbelief esp from what I read on the various Mini forums. But I never believe what I read from forums because there is so much mis-information.

As for the wimpy OEM control arms...no doubt but I bought this car pretty much for a commuter that I can have fun with. No need for beefier arms

 

What's your rear camber currently at?

 

I don't know the numbers, just put the coils on a couple weeks ago.

...its visibly noticable, but not as extreme as some I've seen.

Thanks for the detailed info, I like to do my own stuff but with this I'll not try and mess with it, but its good info to have when I get the car in for alignment,

..I recall reading some threads before where some folks took their Mini in for alignment...and were told that those type of adjustments were not able to be done.

some of the guys in our local club do autoX, I'll find out where they get aligned.

 

I just discovered this post after I made mine about finding this out lol.

1 question about setting rear toe. How do make sure you don't add to much toe in on one side? I was going to use the string method and make a box around the car and also measure the distance from the center of the front of the rear tire and then the rear center of the rear tire. Will this be adequate?

I've already had one alignment then lowered the car and want to give it a shot on my own before I fork over another $130 then only doing it again when/if I go coilovers.

Thanks

Josh

 

When I setup the string, I square up the box based on the center of the wheels. This lets me get the string height correct. Then I measure to the rim lip for and aft of that particular wheel/tire. Most tires have a bunch of writing and texture on them, so it becomes difficult to get an accurate measurement when using the tire sidewall.

Mike

 

Also remember to take into account the slightly narrower rear track compared
to the front when doing this method. I think it's about 8mm less on most models
except the Countryman, which is about 26 mm narrower on the back axle.

 

I use a pair of long pipes to run across the front and rear of the car. Then I wrap the strings on the pipes, and measure the distance from string to string (maybe 70 inches). As long as this distance is the same front and rear, the box will end up square.
If you then center the strings on the front (say,65mm from the center of the wheel), then center the strings on the rear (maybe 75mm per side). If you do this a couple of times, and make sure that you are only go front-to-front, and rear-to-rear (not left front to left rear), then you will get the strings parallel to the center of the car.
If the strings are parallel to the center of the car, and the measurements from string to string (on the pipes) are the same from front to rear, then the strings will allow you to get an accurate measurement. It doesn't matter what the track width is front to rear, or what car it is. You just want to get the strings parallel to the center line of the car, not evenly spaced from front wheel to rear wheel.

Mike

 

Correct. I was just trying to point out that the string will be a few mm further away from
the rear tires/rims than from the fronts when things are set up correctly.
Sometimes people will set the string up evenly away from all 4 tires and you end up
with a trapezoid instead of a rectangle.

 

Great info guys, thanks.

I originally did the box method but wasn't sure how to make sure the car was parallel in the box because I know the track was different front to back but didn't know how much. My fear was creating a rear steer effect from toeing in one side more then the other. So what I did was intentionally make a trapezoid, then match the front of the boxes width to the rear. Their maybe some error in this method but I'm pretty confident that it's within 1/16th of an inch and my justification for this was once I sit in the car and/or have a full or empty tank, it'll change the settings anyways. What you think?

I'm going to have another stab at this later just to double check my work.

Cheers

 

Totally agree!!

I'm from HK and my Countryman S lowered with Eibach pro-kit spring. Originally installed the NM rear control arm but it generates noise after some time. Then I decided to put back the original OEM arm and adjust camber using the eccentric bolt.

Surprisingly, the min camber I can get on my lowered mini with the eccentric bolt is exactly what mentioned above, about -1.2 degree.

That is, I DO NOT NEED the rear adjustable control arm actually.

I think the adjustable rear control arm is for poeple who want to tune rear camber frequently (e.g. track day). For street use, the eccentric bolti adjustment is enough (provided that you do not lower your mini to very extreme case).

Hope this info can help people choose what they need.

 

I just picked up my R53 with swift springs on stock suspension the best I could get the rear camber was -1.8