Fast moving thread and obviously an emotional topic for many.

I'll agree 100% that when M7 was asked about the country of origin there should have either been a straight and specific answer, or none at all.

On a slightly different note, refering back to some comments folks made in the middle of this thread, I wouldn't necessarily hold the Bilsteins up as examples of exceptional quality. Others have posted negative comments about the SPAX coilovers (made in England) and said the PSS9s are the best thing since sliced bread (not a literal quote for you picky posters ). I've had both on my 2003 MCS, and I don't think I agree.

After approximately the same number of miles / months / autocrosses on each setup, the SPAX held up at least as well.

The shiny finish on the PSS9s looked pretty good new, but looked like crap after the first winter (installed in the fall). The plain old yellow paint on the SPAX looked fine after 2 winters.

The PSS9s had spotty welds, to the point that I sent pictures of the first set I got to Bilstein and they chose to replace them. They were nice about that though, so they get A's for customer service.

The PSS9s didn't ride well at all, for MY car on the local roads for MY preferences, but the SPAX felt great for daily driving. I'd rate the SPAX as an improvement over stock and the Bilsteins as a definite step in the wrong direction compared to stock or SPAX. This is a very subjective measure, but others that drove my car with each setup made the same comments.

After 2.5 years, I've got pieces falling off of the PSS9s. One of the set screws for a front adjustment **** fell out, and now the **** is gone too. Once again, Bilstein (USA) is sending replacement parts for free.

I never liked the feel of the PSS9 on course, until I replaced the front springs with a different set from a different manufacturer. SPAX felt fine out of the box.

The PSS9s wouldn't go on my car until I opened up the bore in one of my front hubs with a hone. I had to remove several thousandths before the damper body could be forced in using oil as a lubricant. The SPAX had fit fine previously. No, I wasn't removing oxidation.

Bilstein damper adjustments are non-linear and mushy, and I have found them hard to identify by feel. The SPAX had nice, distinct clicks.

To partially compensate for the quality, the Bilsteins do have several nice design features such as the larger diameter shafts.

I got the PSS9s new for $1400 in late 2004, the SPAX for $900 in 2002.

I'm starting to suspect that one of the Bilstein dampers is dying already.

I'm not trying to say that Bilstein doesn't make a quality product, just that they sure aren't perfect. Anybody that has worked in a manufacturing role should understand the issues, and recognize that country of origin isn't a major factor in the quality of the parts you're buying. More important is how you spec'ed them and how much you're willing to pay for raw materials and a first rate QA department. It all comes down to $$$, though more is not always better since mark-ups and exhange rates play a factor.

It seems that much of the goods coming out of China right now are relatively poor quality, but then again they are asked to deliver for a low-ball price despite the overseas freight costs. What can you honestly expect? Goods from Korea or Japan can be every bit as good as those produced anywhere else today. Again, how much are you willing to pay for?

If I wanted to buy a "quality" car based on some fairly conventional definitions of quality, it would be Japanese. That assumes that I'm primarily interested in driving the car for the longest period of time between repairs of any sort with minimal reasonable maintenance (ie excellent reliability and durability). Please note that my own daily driver since Oct '02 has been a MINI, as quality wasn't my only criteria. That statement is based on direct experience owning two American cars ('72 302V8 Comet, '88 Mustang 5.0LX), one Japanese/American ('93 Probe GT), two German cars ('78 Rabbit S, '84 GTi), one Japanese motorcycle ('73 Honda 750Four), and four Japanese cars ('88 CRX Si, '90 Celica, '96 Integra GSR, '98 Forester S) and one British/German/Brazilian car ('03 MCS, 55% UK content according to the window sticker), plus growing up driving a couple of Volvos, a Porsche, an Alfa Romeo, an Audi, a Supra, and a couple of Hondas that my parents owned, plus observations of other family members and car folks (engineers, techicians and mechanics at work, and fellow SCCA members).

I'm sure someone will feel the need to take exception to what I've posted, but none of it is heresay or hypothetical. It all comes from MY personal experience with components on MY cars, or from my professional experience. I develop new IC engines for future commerical sales for a very large engine manufacturer for multiple and widely varying applications, with components designed and sourced all over the world. Every country is capable of producing both absolute rubbish and works of art, and everything in between.

Scott
90SM

 

Very superb right up 90STX. Well done.

 

No, maybe I meant please show me how a Lexus is inferior to a Pugeot or Skoda. (Sarcasm never really comes through right in text).

But, thanks for the link. I can see how Bilstein is a good product...I guess the M7/Korean product doesnt have as nice a page explaining their engineering.

I agree that being "lied" to sucks. But in the process of complaining about a lie, a greater offense had to be addressed.

 

What do you mean? M7 sure does have a page: http://www.m7tuning.com/parts/produc...eefb362cff1e25

I am not sure you can call what M7 did engineering. I remember seeing Telwiger at Steve's Auto Clinic sometime last year when he was testing their new product. He was giving me the sales pitch and in the process explaining how these will be just right once the manufacturer moves the brake line brackets on the rear shock bodies. Sounded to me like they had very little to do with the actual engineering of the shock. They just provided some specs to mount an existing product on the car. That's just my impression. I could be wrong.

P.S. Has anyone been to, or seen the M7 engineering facility?

 

"Beware: Loaded Question"

 

A question to be asked is how many of the vendors have testing or engineering facilities period. I'm guessing less than you think.

 

This is well done +1

a few things.... I represented a German company for about 10 years... they moved their mfg to China.... I asked the owner about quality and he said with the new equip in his factory in China that the quality was much better than he could achive in Germany (electronics) as stated the products out of China are for the most part built to a spec..... if you want a part for $.10 or $10 you have to request it and the quality (for the most part) will track.... it just so happens that most mfg are under alot of pressure to "value engineer" (make cheaper) their goods.....

As far as M7...... I talked to Peter when the COs were in "development" and he was not happy with several aspects of the prototype and had several back and forth discussions and design parameters he wanted before he brought them to market under the M7 "brand".... this is not significantly different than the mfg I work with.... as far as not wanting to divulge his source..... the current ethics with doing business with Asian companies is questionable and not wanting to lose his designs and work to another vendor....while I don't agree with lying, answering this question is loaded.... my advice to Peter if he wants to protect his sources is simply to say we do not give out that info......

 

^I agree.

 

oh, the irony

 

I agree. But most of them identify themselves as vendors/resellers. Not tuners/engineers. In either case, it would be an interesting list to see who actually does their own design/research.

Well, said, as always. Which makes one wonder if the "no where near Asia" statement was intended to secure a sale or two.

 

No....vendors would be like outmotoring (or atleast until he worked on his own coilover setup). He sold alta stuff and sold H&R springs.....that's a vendor/re-seller. It sounds like Peter worked with the CO company to reach the desired product. This is what Pilo did with Megans as well. This is definitely on the tuner/engineer side. Atleast....it's as close as it's gonna get for a MINI aftermarket company.

 

What about RMW? They are the only company to actually engineer parts and make them. They use companies like Clutchmaster, Burns Stainless, and Rotrex, but they engineer and design everything except for the clutch.

 

Bet that statement is not true, I don't really think many people has any idea what goes into engineering automotive parts not something you do on the back on a napkin.

 

Our manufacturing is all done here in California. The CNC work of the heads is done here, the engine work, the headers/collectors.
I worked with Clutchmaster to design the dual disc for the Mini which now powers the fastest most powerful Mini's in the world. It's the only clutch you can buy off the shelf that will handle the power.

The Rotrex supercharger ITSELF is made in Denmark, but the rest of the kit is manufactured here in Cali.

You won't find a header done anywhere like mine for sale that was made in China or the like, because it is too difficult to manufacture. The collector is a piece of art and function that can only be made by hand. We only use USA made flex joints also, not the cheap Chinese ones other companies use. Who uses V-band clamps on their exhaust as STANDARD equipment?

We take pride in offering USA made parts and will continue to do so. WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE MAKING THIS STUFF IN ASIA..... PERIOD

jan

 

I saw my name mentioned so I thought I would clarify some things and rant a bit.....

for what it's worth, I do have a BS in Industrial Design from Art Center College of Design in Pasadena and worked at one of the worlds leading design and engineering consulting groups for many years before launching Out Motoring. While I am not an engineer, I have designed many dozens of products for my clients like STX lacrosse, Taylormade Golf, LYND, Bosca, Leeds, Barco, etc.....the coilovers that I helped create are not designed by "Out Motoring", I do share in the branding of them. They are more like a puzzle that was put together using parts already available. Unfortunately there are a lot of other companies out there that claim their product was designed and engineered in a vaccuum which is nearly impossible.

Call the M7 coilovers (an the vast majority of the other stuff other 'tuners') what they are: Private Labeled product. Nothing else.

I get the same emails from the asian vendors that most of the other leading MINI specialists get and I choose to ignore them, while others reply back with "stick my name on it and send my 25".

 

A lot of bs and people that don't know what they are talking about in this thread. My business deals with china on a moment to moment basis. It doesn't work like a lot of you think it works. Our production lines are as good if not better then our production lines out of europe. Simple as that.

As far as tuner vs. engineer partner. They are all loaded questions. To date I would not consider any one in this industry a true "tuner". That word gets tossed around like child in a divorce settlement.

To be a tuner you must present a full package imo. By that standard no one is really doing that in the industry. And from what I know about design, engineering and supply/demand. That is barely possible in a market as small as the mini community. It's not possible for m7 to design a c/o unit ground up. It's not possible for rmw to machine their own pistons and weld their own collectors. So by the strict definition of the word. They are still not a tuner.

But do you want to be able to afford things for these cars? I mean do you want to be paying 4k for coil overs? Do you want to be paying $15,000 to push your car past 250whp.

I'll answer for you... you don't and you won't. So looking to an experienced sub/manufacterer is the only answer. If you bring specifications and experience to the table they create what you are looking for. (that is if they are talented and good at their field) M7 has been doing this with all of their products. It's what most of these so called mini "tuners" do. Some are more or less involved then others.

It's your job to sift through the bs and make an educated buying decision.

I will tell you this though. When you are a sales man... or repping a company, and some one says to you in so many words. "I hate asian products and will not buy them... regardless of how good they may be... I just don't trust asians to make good stuf. So where is your product made now?"

What answer are you going to give. I'm not supporting vendors lying to customers... but clearly when some one approaches you in this manor... they are a bigot customer. Nothing you say will appease them. So you have three choices. 1) tell them what they want to hear 2) lie to them 3) avoid the question.

think logically people.

 

hey prime you better watch it... I am totally a sticker tuner/engineer/MFG..

 

Well said....

 

Lets not be too loose with giving away titles. Just because I told my architect that I want a steam shower and a large closet does not make me an architect. Buying a water heater at Home Depot and having someone else put it in does not make me a plummer. Just because I can put together a computer, I don't go around pretending to be an electronics engineer. I am just saying.

But to try and bring this back on topic, once again. I am still waiting to hear M7's explanation.

 

I mostly agree with what Prime is saying, for pete sakes there probably isnt one car manufacture today that completly designs, manufactures and assembles their cars completely from start to end, excecpt for maybe Ferrari. But im sure one of you guy's will check that .

 

afaik even they outsource a lot of items such as brakes, etc etc.

 

I don't follow you on this...

I prefer that my watch be a Swiss Rolex vs. a Taiwanese Roleks. I like my shoes to be made in Italy vs China. I like my cars German vs. Korean. That is because I believe Swiss make better watches, Italians make better shoes and German make better cars. That is not bigotry. That is a preference. However, lying about a product to make a sale is just that, a lie.

 

do you like BBS? I do. My RG-F were made in Japan. So much for 'German'

 

So where my Kosei's. Volk's, Ray's, etc. are excellent Japanese products.

 

I've read every thread about these coil overs. At every turn of the road through their journey to coming to the market... people have been "asking" questions about country of origin.

However from my pov as a rep for a company that sells imported goods (chinese, european, and middle eastern) these weren't truly questions. Just poorly worded threats. You people ask for information with such angst that as a rep i wouldn't dare answer the question. You have made it clear that only one answer will please you (which you barely have a right to know as a consumer) so why even answer. Take your money else where and stop asking in such a combative way.

As a consumer you aren't entitled to any information. Here's a few examples.
1) when you bought your very german/british bmw brand mini... did the sales man proudly proclaim that the engine from it was made in brasil and could also be found in dodge neons?
2) when you buy a computer do you request what sub dell uses when purchasing ram and what IQ's they are using?
3) When you purchase your rolex watch do you request information from them on where each gear was machined and weather the quartz drive uses quartz from europe or china (i guarentee it comes from china btw)
4) when you buy an ipod from the all american company apple... do you request to know where the micro hard drives are made? and god forbid... what country it is actually produced in?

This is part of manufactering. Denying it is simply turning your back on how things work. You as a consumer are entitled to nothing... if you want to be prevy to certian pieces of information become an investor. then you will truly know. My druthers is 30-50% of the parts of these so called elitist euro manufacteres you know and love are outsourcing parts.