This is BS Mark. How can junkie be CONTINUALLY bashing M7 at EVERY opportunity he can scrounge up, and when someone calls him on it you then step in and claim it un-civil. I'm so friggin sick of this kinda crap here. Junkie is nothing more then a sniveling cry baby that obviously will never let this go.
This does NOTHING but hurt all of us! You are NOT protecting us junkie, you are censoring this forum from vendor participation. Give us all a break and just give it up will you.
And for all the other vendors that have jumped on this thread, you should be very ashamed in doing so. To 'my knowledge I don't ever remember M7 jumping into another thread that had to do with vendor bashing. It's quite bizarre how so many Mini vendors just love to see their brethren shot down here on NAM and other Mini forums. This rarely EVER happens on any other forum that I visit.
Tarett?

 

Well put onasled let's stick to the topic and as for goaljnky grind your axe but do it in the right way. I just checked and godaddy.com has ihatem7.com or m7didmewrong.com for 9.99 do it there. We all know on NAM your deal with them, register it and take it to the next level for gods sake if that will make your pain go away!

 

Wow - I was surprised to see this with your behavior toward WMS in the past.

As a side, we are only manufacturing our parts here in the US. The SportBox was completely done in house, and all of the manufacturing is done here as well. The same with the RAF. The Extreme Swaybar was our design, and is manufactured in California for us - the manufacturer is a quality firm I sought out from the Porsche community specifically for this project. Our supercharger pulley is our design - now being manufactured in Portland and being sold under several brands without our permission. Our head was done using our own research and flow bench testing here in Colorado, and is still made in the US. We used to carry prouducts from M7, and I no longer do for product quality and ethical reasons.

None of that is to push our products, it is in defense of the statements that few if any MINI "tuners" do any product development or production. Our test regime was actually used by several other manufacturers in the beginning of the MINI scene - those of you who have been around long enough remember that and our candid posts about the pros and cons of a specific product (after working with the vendors to make sure the piece was the final production bit).

I am honestly torn about this thread. I am glad to see it because I have been bitten by M7 in the past, but as a vendor that has endured my share of bashing, I know how it can literally ruin your life during the period it is happening. I think Peter would do well just to post what the hell he was thinking when saying the product was built no where near Asia - something I had heard repeated from other customers he was talking to besides Chris by the way.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for the post, but I am just tired of tip toeing around all of the blatant ******** tossed around this forum. I hope this clears up my view and what I've tried to do with our parts all along.

Randy Webb
Owner, Founder, President - Webb Motorsports

 

it isnt even goaljnky that's making anything out of this... the incident in question is in regards to chrismcs04's conversation with peter, nothing to do with goaljnky. true he has a bad taste in his mouth from a previous encounter with one of their products but we all just wanna know why peter would lie. That's the bottom line.

let's stay on topic and leave goaljnky out of this. he hasnt attacked any of you in this thread, so why jump on him?

 

I have to agree with you. Time after time I see this type of issue coming up and rather than really trying to provide some insight and value the purpose appears to be to keep things stirred up. No value...just noise. To see evidence of this plot to stir things up you only have to go over to the forums on mininuts.com. It’s no wonder that people get angry and start venting when the pot is stirred in this manner. To address this please see the updated guideline on respect for others (deliberate antagonizing in particular). This was added some time ago but going forward you can either contribute in a genuine fashion or you can continue to stir it up with seemingly "helpful" commentary. Taking the latter route will result in a strike because it’s been a long running, repeating pattern. Frankly I've had enough of this and if I see it occurring under the guise of "trying to be helpful" or "trying to have fun" when there is long history of just the opposite, action will be taken to remove these issues from the site.

As for vendors jumping into this thread...this is reason that I have been working on vendor guidelines. Using a thread like this to highlight something you don't do like the vendor in question is both a disparaging comment and an unacceptable way to promote your business. Promote your business and services on your merits not by climbing on the backs of others. Vendor guidelines will hopefully be sent out for initial vendor review in the next couple of weeks (I'm in the middle of trying to get the site to a new server).

Mark

 

Good thing I went to Costco and bought the Enterpirse version of popcorn with it's infinite scalability today.

 

Mark,

While I agree with you on some level, I have to disagree on another. While direct involvement is rare, "groupies" certainly attack on behalf of, and instead of going that route, I was straight enough to add what I believe is important insight on this matter.

I am definitely NOT trying to promote our products, but if folks directly state that the MINI community does no design, development, research or manufacturing, and I have been mentioned in the thread (along with several other vendors), I am going to respond in absolute fashion - because frankly, I have spent too much of my own damn life and money on this community to listen to it.

Maybe I misunderstood where you were coming from, but if not, and I have refrained in posting about the fiasco I was involved with to this point and made a simple sarcastic comment and it violates the soon to be Vendor Guidelines, I am OK with not being a vendor. If I did misunderstand, than my comments should be well within guidelines and I can assume you are not addressing me (and others) directly but making a general statement to all.

Randy

 

Actually this thread is now addressing a host of issues...perhaps we should split them out..some of them going into Site Feedback for general discussion.

I have the following topics:

1) M7 Coilovers country of origin - the original thing that brought this discussion into play

2) goaljnky and others interest in stirring things up for the purpose of...stirring it up

3) Vendors taking the opportunity to jump into a discussion about another vendor.

4) Some real constructive discussion on what we all expect out of vendors and each other.

I'm sure I've missed other big topics in this thread...its gone in so many directions at this point. If additional discussion is warranted on a topic other than the country of origin and M7's representation of how they want represent their own product then start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Mark

 

This IS getting a little out of hand, even by NAM standards.

If folks want the "best", first define what it means to you. For racing? (What series, in what class on what tracks?) For autocross? (what class, and local or national?) For street use? Shiniest? Fit? (easy to install, or closest tolerances?) Performance? (how specifically do you choose to quantify it?) Value? (another moving target with plenty of definitions).

FYI, Cosworth doesn't "make" MINI heads. Some foundry does, and I'd be very surprised if it isn't located somewhere in Central or South America like most are now. Then some other vendor (to MINI, not consumers) machines those castings. That vendor could be about anywhere, though again it is probably in the same general part of the world as the foundry in this case. Cosworth, again in all likelyhood since I don't work there, takes the machined heads and then further works them over to their own specs. Same for RMS, Webb, Thumper, Wegner and everybody else.

I would be flat out stunned if any of those vendors (to consumers) actually designed a different head casting including cores, sourced a foundry and then machined the raw castings themselves. It just costs too much. Did I mention I work for a company that designs (literally from a clean sheet of paper, or now days from a blank Pro-E file) and assembles engines?

For heads, speaking generically, the process looks something like this:
1. Either design head from scratch or work with a vendor to have them design a head that should work to the desired performance (size, weight, flow, swirl, lube & cooling passages, combustion volume, temperatures, cylinder pressure, etc)

2. Then source a foundry, work with them to develop dies and cores, get another vendor (GE) to x-ray the heads to be sure the castings match the models

3. Machine them ourselves (billions of $ in tooling and equipment for head or block machining lines)

4. Install guides, valves, cams, bearings, followers, etc, (all outsourced and either made to our design or designed by the vendor (ie they have design control) to work in the operating parameters we spec)

5. Then test the snot out of them, using multiple engine dynos for durability/abuse/performance/emissions/mapping work, flow benches, rig testing, temperature and pressure measurments feeding models for additional analysis, field testing (adding up to hundreds of thousands of miles), etc. In case you don't know, that is millions of $ in testing and analysis, and several years.

6. Tweak the design as needed based on Step 5, then repeat several steps.

Same basic story for any other part on the engine, differing in details depending on the materials and manufacturing technique. That's the kind of work, time and cost that goes into the design and development of engines by OEMs boys and girls.

Just resourcing a casting to a new foundry (same vendor or a different one) entails most of those steps, even if there is no intentional redesign of the part.

20 to 30 years ago nearly all of the parts in the engines (minus major raw castings, pistons and bearings) were made in-house. Heck, when I started there we still machined blocks, heads, rods, cranks, flywheel housings, flywheels, gear housings, made ECMs, made injectors, made turbochargers, etc. Some of the more critical parts we still do, like macnining blocks and heads, and making injectors, ECMs and turbos. It just isn't practical or financially viable for a major manufacturer to literally make an engine from start to finish any more and stay competitive. Global sourcing is here to stay.

To get back to the M7 coilovers, they could have just slapped a different label on them. Or spec'ed a different finish. Or spec'ed a differnt spring rate and/or damper valving. Or spec'ed different bushing sizes or materials. Or...whatever they did. They're still probably made in Korea, and arguably rebranded as is so commonly done, but it is still possible that they are not exactly the same as those sold in Korea. They might be, or they might be different in one or more of the features I mentioned above. Of course that could make them either "better" or "worse" than the version sold in Korea by what we think is the manufacturer. A lot of items aren't actually "made" by the companies you think make them.

The better question is, do you like the looks of them and do you think they'll do what you want them to do? If so, buy them. If not, pick something else.

I'd be more worried about the raw material specification, how close the material actually was to that spec, the machining tolerances and the QA that hopes to confirm that they are to that tolerance, the design of the individual components and how they interact, the care in assembly, and the cost. Of course you'd be lucky to find a vendor that would actually share all of those details with you, even assuming that everyone is capable of making heads or tails of the information.

The country any of those steps were performed in doesn't really impact the "quality" of the end product, but that doesn't keep each individual from making a decision based on politics or personal bias. Just don't try to sugar coat your opinion by saying parts from one country are better than those from another. There are way too many variables for that statement to ever be universally accurate.

Of course none of that forgives dishonesty if it occurs. It would forgive a vendor chosing to not answer certain questions though, at least in my opinion.

Scott
90SM

 

I think you bring up some good points...let's start a new thread in site feedback to discuss the issues of the "groupie" effect on the site and vendors as well as a host of other issues that have a direct impact on vendors and the members of the site. I always wanted a fair exchange of information on the site so that each person could make their own decisions...now I feel that exchange isn't always to develop a higher level of understanding but to promote a given agenda. Regardless let's move this over to Site Feedback and see if we can bring some of these issues out into the open so that we can try to improve the community in some way.

Mark

 

I am honestly torn about this thread. I am glad to see it because I have been bitten by M7 in the past, but as a vendor that has endured my share of bashing, I know how it can literally ruin your life during the period it is happening. I think Peter would do well just to post what the hell he was thinking when saying the product was built no where near Asia - something I had heard repeated from other customers he was talking to besides Chris by the way.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for the post, but I am just tired of tip toeing around all of the blatant ******** tossed around this forum. I hope this clears up my view and what I've tried to do with our parts all along.

Randy Webb
Owner, Founder, President - Webb Motorsports[/quote]

Thank you for your support. I have PM'd Peter and he has told me he is staying out of this one.

I myself am torn...because I wish that I could post the two PM's that he has sent me, but out of humility and having a conscience I will not do so. I will PM him one more time and advise him to give answers. If he then wishes to bow out with his tail between his legs then I will post the PM's...I feel that this is neccessary to end this thread. I believe I hold the ending post, it is just a matter of morals. I will give him one final chance and then I will post what he responded to me with. I just want this can of worms closed for good. It should have never clibmed to this level, but hopefully it will be over soon.

 

If any administrators want to step in and tell me if it is ok to post the PM's then I will do so, but again after I give Peter one more chance.

 

I personally wouldn't post the PMs here in the forum, regardless of what the mods say. In my opinion, the "P" in "PM" doesn't just apply to the recipient. Regardless, I don't think anyone here thinks you're lying about what Peter told you, so why bother?

 

WTF are you talking about Randy???
I swear you are off your meds sometimes.

 

You got your point across many times over Chris. OK, what is it that you want here? I'm sure you have some ridiculoius answer just so you can have the last word.

 

I've never liked the idea of posting someone's PM without their permission. ..regardless if it was vendor related or not. How Peter decides to respond to this thread and others via PM is really up to him and is a business decision for him. Members can make of that response what they will.

Mark

 

post em dood. you have my permission.

 

I wish I could take meds sometimes! The FAA doesn't look kindly on that though .

 

What a can of worms Mark. You'ed better really think this through. Big mistake.

 

Completely off topic, but your post made me laugh. The Navy is the same way regarding meds and flying. Perfect example - when I was quitting smoking, I wanted to take Zyban to help with the cravings. The problem is, Zyban was originally tested and marketed as an anti-depressant before it was found to be effective as an aid to stop smoking, and the Navy doesn't allow aviators to take anti-depressants, so no Zyban for me.

Never mind the fact that the Navy's "no anti-depressant" rule is only because they don't want anyone flying that's been diagnosed as clinically-depressed. Because Zyban *could* be used to treat depression, you can't even fly if you're taking it just to stop smoking.

 

Why would this be a mistake? When you post to a forum you know its going to be public. When you respond to a private message I would expect that people feel that they will be kept private. If this isn't what people want we should probably turn off private messaging and force people to post everything in the forums.

I can understand that in certain cases there are things in PMs that may be so appauling that you want to expose it but it seems that there should be other ways to deal with a problem.

This might be another one of the general site policy issues that should be discussed in Site Feedback since it would effect what everyone should expect on the site. If so, start a thread there and we can discuss further.

Mark

 

Waaa!, Waaa!, Waaa!, Waaa!, Waaa!

Why, why, why did PePeter LIE to me??? I'm so angry I waawaawannaa Cry

Waaa! Waaa!, Waaa!, Waaa!

Well thats the best crying I could do online

 

He lied to you, too? He seems to be making a habit of it...

 

Well said! I will tell you this, the vendors that have jumped in and bashed are now off my list of list and I won't recommend them at all. Regardless of what was said between Chris and Peter, we don't know the full extent of the conversation and thus are only getting one side of the story (there are always two). If Peter did say it, we don't know why at this point and to be honest, I doubt we ever will. It is a valid reason to post and ask, but the overwhelming bashing proves that some people have no lives and another agenda all together. Persoanlly I think they just like the drama.

 

#200 in a way to long thread....

Do I hear 300???