I don't see where ASC will correct any kind of an under- or over-steer condition. That is what DSC adds. And that is what Dr.O was originaly posting about, stability control.

 

Here is what came with my MINI.

 

Wow, 4+ pages in just a few hours!

I like DSC. I ordered DSC. I like that it is on as the default. And it HAS saved my bacon at least once, and maybe a couple more times...

That all said, I turn it off nearly half the time, depending upon the conditions and my attitude.

 

Now that is weird. My 04 manual doesn't even have a page like that. It doesn't even match the online maual from the OL. I can understand why we are both confused about what exactly each of these systems can do.

 

I find this to be an interesting assertion. If a tire is hydroplaning by definition, the tire has virtually no traction. Lets start by reminding ourselves that if your front tires are hydroplaning, you have no steering. None. In point of fact thats exactly when most people realize they are indeed hydroplaning when they turn the steering wheel and nothing happens. At that point the front wheels are merely rudders. DSC can do nothing to stop hydroplaning. It can only do something to alter the path of of the car if some of your tires are NOT hydroplaning. Certainly, if the right front hits a puddle or ice patch and the system brakes the left rear to keep the car straight, that is a workable application of the system, again assuming that the left rear has reasonable traction. In the case of a "river" on the road, however, with all four wheels hydroplaning, by definition, braking, which is what DSC does, has little to no effect, particularly so as presumably the ABS, sensing the wheel immediately locking up (which it must as there is no rolling traction) will release the brake anyway.

No offense intended to you AC, but its precisely this sort of over selling of DSC that makes some of us suspect its true value for even the average driver, just as we suspect the value of 4WD on SUVS. It promotes overconfidence. If its icy or extremely wet out, you need to simply slow down. If you're misfortunate enough to find yourself in a situation where all four wheels lack grip, DSC can not do anything more than you can, which typically is just going along for the ride until you regain traction.

 

Exactly this is why you should AVOID the out of control situation in the first place. And know how to respond if you get into deep (since the Dr. likes puns )

 

Just for the heck of it...

I have done a dozen or so HPDE (track) events. When I go to a new track, I leave the DSC on until I feel I "know" the track. It doesn't slow you down much at all while you are in the learning the track phase, as you aren't going full speed anyway. And, I have had it do good, helpful things on the track when I screwed up. Look at my Watkins Glen video - http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...57721908&hl=en

Of course, since my car is justacooper, I don't have as big an issue with power induced wheelspin as some other people have.

I do know, from firsthand experience, that you can slide a MINI around pretty well with the DSC left on. I also agree that on the track, you can get a faster lap time with the DSC off, at least once you know the track.

On the street, my DSC is always on (unless I need to turn it off to get moving in the snow). I'm of the opinion that no matter how aware and safe you are, there are always things that can happen.

 

it reminds me the old days about when peopel argued if the options such as ABS, air bags, snow tires and etc are necessary or not... In the past, people think they are just something that dealers tried to make money with but useless, then once it proved that it saved lifes, people stopped the argues and accept them.

As for the "over average drivers do not need such thing", IMO, I believe that if you ask the professional drivers about if they want these devices as standard options or not within their ''street cars'', I am sure they will all say yes, but for sure while racing on track, hell no .

And something I find funny about is, usually when you turn off the DSC (on the other hand, turn on the DSC light), it tells you to be more concentrate on driving, since it reminds you that ''no traction control now'' with the DSC light on. I found it happens to a lot of drivers and racers.

 

I enjoyed your WGI video. You seem like a great student! One thing I noticed and would caution you on though is your line through the esses. You're a scousch early in 2 (8:09) which keeps compounding itself with very early on turn-in to the bridge (the typical spot is to be on the right side curbing til the gap in the curbing) and that xlates to coming out very early. The faster you go the more dangerous this becomes. It all starts with proper entry at 2. Its a little difficult there not to focus on the apex there (which your head position in the video suggests you might be doing). I find that if I look up to the top of the hill, its far easier to get the entry correct there. IMHO, one of the tricks to a number of corners at WGI, since they are so huge, is learning to look through guard rails and fencing to track out. Five is another spot that comes to mind where you have to look over the guard rail, through the grass, past the spotter stand and back over the guard rail again. Doing this lets you understand exactly when you can be full on throttle, where if your letting the corner unfold in front of you, the tendency is to get to it later than you could have. Don't mean to be impertinant, just possibly helpful.

Anyhoo, as long as we're showing video, and at a track you've been to, a simple demonstration of the benefits of DCC (driver car control ).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9UT0X1A3jwE

No DSC, no ASC, no EBD, no ABS, no power brakes, no power steering, no wall, no tree, no spin. Note the brief, but lovely view of the NHIS garages below.

 

Okay, so have you read this months C&D review comparing the M5, S6 and AMG E63? The M5 came in last, principally due to its overly intrusive and apparently undefeatable DSC.

Heres a quote from the magazine about DSC:The lane change and skid pads figures are to my mind quite disconcerting. Turns your $90K M5 into a $20K Corolla. So, to your point, this group of professionals clearly does not agree that at least in this case (a BMW product mind you) that DSC is a uniformly good thing.

 

Thanks again Dr. for a ggreat topic.
I wasn't able to read all the info here in one sitting.
Will have to get back to it later.
Kinda like abag of chips,
best not to eat the whole bag in one sitting.

 

Can you guys please pause for just a couple of minutes, I have to go refill my popcorn

 

I am in the 'better on than off' camp. I've only had it try to kill me when tires break traction at the moment I'm making a left turn across heavy fast traffic. Believe it or not, I have managed to train myself to be smoother and stay within the limits of traction on my own. At which point DSC spoke to me and said "Aha! Humans ARE trainable!".

 

So just to be clear on my position, I am not saying that ASC/DSC must be eradicated. I'm simply saying that like any technology, particularly when constrained by the market realities of cost and litigation, it is not perfect and as such, its reasonable for people to decide that they either wish to purchase it or pass on it. I APPLAUD MINI for giving us this option. What I would hate to see is, as in the case of the M5 mentioned previously, that the decision is taken out of the buyers hands if DSC were to become standard and undefeatable.

It is perfectly reasonably to choose to purchase DSC. I sense, however, a certain defensiveness, on the part of those who consider themselves to be of above average skill and for a set of well reasoned conclusions have elected to purchase DSC. IMO, there is no need to defend that selection. It was not an unreasonable one. Presumably these same people are intelligent enough to recognise that DSC is not a substitute for snow tires for example. One wonders, however, if the average driver is equally knowledgeable and might not jeapoardize themselves and others through misunderstanding or ignorance.

It's good to remember that there are some of us, however, who cut teeth on cars which had none of these devices, let alone a modern performance tire and behold we've survived! For us, these aids are at best a nuisance and at worst extremely distracting at critical moments when precision and concentration are required. For this class of consumer, these doodads simply interfere with the enjoyment of the car. And enjoyment is the single biggest reason I bought an MCS in the first place. Electronic aids, for me, diminish my enjoyment, therefore I am willing to chance it that someday my skills might fail me where DSC might not have. Thats a personal decision we all make; there is no right or wrong.

 

Gee, if we only could get the bad guys to drive MINIs maybe there would be no more shootings and need for police chases? It's a thought!

 

You got some good points, well said ... Sort of what I was trying to say ... And yeah, we had lead paint in the window sills, ate the chips ... and lived

But serously, your point about the M5 shows the trend of how intrusive these devices are becoming. Then again, although a great sports sedan and autobahn cruiser, I dont think anyone would consider it a great racecar

You have a nice 996 in your sig. I have no idea how intrusive PSM was 7 years ago, but as inferred above, today you can NEVER actually turn PSM off. You can flip the switch, but it always lurks in the background to save you but you got to really "try" to be losing it.

I view this as a trend, by car maker, that they WILL insist on safety device whether you like it or not.

 

Yes I read the magazine too, and I am totally agree that the DSC is totally a bad thing while racing, test drive on track. If you watch the UK car show "Fifth Gear" or ''Top Gear'', you will find all the pro test drivers hate the traction control, but they do recommand it for street driving.

While on street, may I ask if you would use the full power and drive as fast as when you race on track? Plus, have you ever drive to any location that you had never visited, which could give you some unexpect situation?

my point is, yes, on track, no one wants to run with these kind of safety devices, but on street, you never know what could happen.

P.S, not try to fight at all, it is simply knowledge exchange.

 

Thanks! Nice of you to say so. Yes, PSM is only defeated when ones foot is off the brake. PSM was introduced in 2000 and was not a mandatory option at that time. If memory serves it was the 2002-3 makeover that made PSM (Porsche's DSC) standard, at least in the US. My 996 has no PSM or traction control. Neither, sadly does it have LSD which was dropped in 2K with the availability or PSM. That the car has no e-aids is one of the reasons I still have it. The decision to opt for an Exige, if I really do decide to replace it, is due in no small part, to the fact the the Lotus has none of this nonsense, which is what I personally want in a sports-road car.

 

Hey, that really is a great pic. Thanks for the history. I didnt know when it was introduced. I also didn't know about no LSD because of the PSM because some ppl do ask ... "why no LSD option".

Exige S ... oh yeah, really nice but a bit impractical to drive to the grocery store. At least Porsche doesn't make the PSM as intrusive as MINI. I've seen the DSC light kick in when I thought ... why? PSM would dont feel at all, mostly because the level it kicks in is set far lower than MINI but when it does, the first time I felt it ... whoa, straighten the tail right out.

 

I have only one quote here Sid, well I guess one sentence here goes " I always forget to turn off DSC at the track since I drive on the street with it on always (except for take offs in bad weather conditions) and have not had it intrude on my driving or cut power, hell I rearly light up my inside front wheel except for the corkscrew at shenendoah, I can do great four wheel slide (I like to call it skating) through turn ten at the glenn all without activating DSC." My conclusion learn to be smooth with your driving and the DSC will not be an issue, it will stay inactive in the back ground and you will be glad its there to save your but when you really screwup.

 

From what I can gather from this discussion, most folks don't like the traction control feature MINI has available. I agree whole heartedly. Besides the reference to the C&D atricle, no one has stated that they don't like the DSC for kicking in when you are in an under- or over-steering situation. This is the benefit of having DSC. Will this increase lap times when on......probably. The salom test is a good example of how the DSC works. By doing a series of very quick lane changes the car will tend to over-steer at some point. Will this increase the time taken to complete the slalom....yes. A capable driver will be able to handle the quick transitions much better than the DSC will be able to do. Will it cause the car to do something unexpected (make it go in a direction not wanted by the driver) NO ! It will simply allow the car to go where the front wheels are turned. achieving this by slowing the car down a bit by apply braking force to an individual wheel. No where during this does the traction control kick in, unless you have the pedal planted to the floor.

 

Good conversation, reasonable POV, no offense taken or given AFAIC in this exchange.

To your.. ahem... somewhat leading questions . Not as fast on street as track, but only because I'm insanely fast at the track and only just crazy fast on the street . (Joke).

Outside of the situation I mentioned before, the odd attempt to squirt into traffic or accident avoidence, the answer is obviously not as fast. OTOH, I can't say in all sincerity that I don't take the odd off/on ramp at speeds which might seem to most to be... well... risky. Nevertheless, even in these situations one always leaves room for a margin of error. The issue is what happens if I recognize I've made a mistake? It is at that point that I use up the margin I've given myself. If DSC intervenes at this point, it happens at a very crucial moment. Driving, for me is all about the feedback loop of my input producing a knowable result as adjuticated by the sensation felt in one's butt. When something unexpectedly intervenes in this process, it is a distraction that breaks concentration and forces the sensitive driver into a non-productive and immediate reevalution of strategy. Thats in a nutshell what I object to. Now perhaps, I'm unusual in this. I have had the head of a prominent racing school in my car who pronounced my car control skills after a flat out session as "Excellent!" (don't worry there was plenty of other criticism and room for improvement in other areas).

On to your second question/point. Lets invert it. Would you go to a track you've never been to and simply try first lap out to drive flat out as hard as you could? Unless you possess an FIA super license, and perhaps even then, that sort of behavior would be idiotic right? So no, I never go into a any unknown blind corner, road or track at anywhere near the limit. Thats simply stupid and for anyone who does have DSC to think that they can do so with impunity as they've got a safety net that will save there ***, is the other half of what I object to with DSC. It can give average drivers a loaded gun which elevates the speeds, lowers the necessary reaction times and ups the g-forces involved if DSC is unable to save the day. So I find the notion you imply that it helps you when in unfamiliar territory not to be particualry compelling for me. In unfamiliar situations most people, at least those of an age where they're fully aware of their own mortality, are cautious and expecting the unexpected. simple defensive driving. Rather, the unexpected tends to occur, more on the simple trip home from work, where the mind can wander to things totally unrelated to driving that one is the most vulnerable. And DSC is again only there to help out if you jerk the car in some stupid way to begin with. It won't prevent a T-bone at an intersection if two unfortunates are both daydreaming at the same time. Vision, awareness, anticipation are the keys to driving, be it on track or road.

In general bad things happen in a car when your surprised by something. If you've spent any time on track, you no doubt at some point in your carreer either experienced or know some one who has experienced a sympathy spin, by which I mean that someone did something stupid close in front of you that you werent expecting and out of sheer reflexes you lifted abruptly only to find yourself driving backwards. DSC might indeed work wonders in such a situation, but on street I'm never two feet off someones bumper at 90MPH. I truly beleive that a large part of being an advanced driver is the ability to calmly deal with what gets thrown at you unexpectedly. Having now spent a number of years on track, and many, many more on street, I'm not generally surprised by much.

Finally, my comments about DSC relate to systems owned in previous cars and not the MCS. Perhaps the MCS system is far better than those (although one was a 325, presumably close in nature) and so my words reflect my experience with those systems generally, not this one in particular. More than a little long winded... I'll shut up now unless queried directly.

 

That's a hell of a save. I know that video makes things look less "interesting" than they really are - if you can tell in a video that a car is getting out of shape, it means that things are getting really interesting for people in the car.

Here's my best "save" video - no DSC:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...62660627&hl=en

 

I'm with you on this one. Even a basic understanding of statistics and probability should be required for everyone ...

 

Yes exactly

And to get to the original post and I think what Matt was trying to illustrate is simply that DSC has been shown to help reduce the severity of accidents (not to mentions help countless numbers avoid accidents, ie it helping roach maintain control of the car when avoiding a dog that dashed out on a curve).

Fact is that many good drivers, not just slobs drinking mochas, do find it worthwhile and choose to have on for various reasons and under various conditions - trashing traction control universally in spite of the benefits to most because there are a few track stars with the reflexes of a panther and the superhuman power to fortell any and all unexpected occurances and deal with bad road/weather conditions optimally at all times, who never get a tad tired or lend the car out and are at all times invincible driving on the street, seems unproductive or really the point for the most part. Bottom line is the car will come with traction control no matter what, you have the choice to choose the more advanced (and I found less abrupt) DSC or settle just for the ASC; you can then learn from it as stated above or turn it off as you see fit. Matt was just sharing evidence that it does and can help in many circumstances, anecdotal exceptions aside.