If you want to know if DSC is a good idea... Let's look at some data!
#101
01-13-2007, 02:35 PM
#102
01-13-2007, 04:49 PM
#103
01-13-2007, 05:00 PM
Ugh. I hate reading posts like this because they are so false... for the last time. ASC has NOTHING TO DO WITH DSC!!!!!!! NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY NOTHING. DSC Controls individual wheels brakes in an attempt to control Yaw (Right left spinning motion or the nose going in a direction you don't want it to) ASC Controls traction by modulating engine speed. The two systems have NOTHING to do with one another, and whether or not you purchase the $500 option to have a computer assist in regaining control of the car should it spin you will STILL experience a loss of engine power should your front wheels spin. If you don't like DSC that's all fine and dandy, but if you don't know what you're talking about, please don't post garbage about safety systems! I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but i'm tired of reading nonsense every day about how people hate DSC because it causes them to lose power when they're accelerating. It CAN'T HAPPEN. DSC has nothing to do with you losing power! If you hate that feature of your MINI, don't buy one, cause they all come with it!
Again, ASC on it's own cannot control the yaw factor of the vehicle. ASC Controls only power. If your car yawed in another direction upon activation of the *TRACTION* control system, another factor was at work. Do you have an LSD on your car?
I can see that you're obviously the best driver on the planet, because even race drivers crash on the TRACK in a CONTROLLED Environment. I also find it comical that you feel that no accident is unavoidable. Try this... Car made an illegal left turn in front of me as I ENTERED an intersection. In less than 1 second I made the decision to swerve right, noticed a pedestrian in the x-walk, and made the SECOND decision to hit the car that had made the turn rather than risk injuring or killing a pedestrian. I suppose if you had been driving you would have figured out some way to avoid it, because no accident is unavoidable! Ugh... people who think they're gods disturb me. You're not invincible, you're an 8 out of 10 on the driver skill scale, MAYBE. DSC can and ALWAYS will be able to avoid situations that you could not possibly begin to avoid, for the simple reason that you cannot modulate individual brakes to augment steering ability. There's only so much you can do in the drivers seat, DSC amplifies your ability as a driver to maintain control of your car. ASC+T is rather annoying most of the time and really only helpful on slippery surfaces when applying too much power would cause the wheels to spin and could send you sliding down an icy hill.
This reminds me of peoples logic on how AWD or 4WD is somehow more safe in snow and ice than a 2wd car. Every single car on the road (With the exception of some limited production cars or trucks) has 4 wheels contacting the ground, and will always have 4 wheels contacting the ground for Traction, braking, steering, etc. The ONLY time AWD is helpful is if you're in a situation where the surface you are on is too slippery for 2 tires to grip and get you moving, and 4 wheels moving distributes the force more with enough symmetry that the car can resume driving.
Well I have ASC not DSC, and its almost always off.
According to that study the Traction control is most effective in single veichle rollovers. MINI is rated least likely to roll over. As I've had it damn near cause a single vehicle accident when it decided to cut half my power and take the car ina different direction than the sterrign wheel it is and shal remain most undoubtebly off every time I start the car (no auto off yet) as in practice it has proved more dangerous than anything else.
I'd be extremely interested in seeing the number in systems with experianced track drivers behind the wheel vs. the numbers witht he common darwin behind the wheel.
Data is important but you need to take a look at the lab and how it applies to your own driving as well.
According to that study the Traction control is most effective in single veichle rollovers. MINI is rated least likely to roll over. As I've had it damn near cause a single vehicle accident when it decided to cut half my power and take the car ina different direction than the sterrign wheel it is and shal remain most undoubtebly off every time I start the car (no auto off yet) as in practice it has proved more dangerous than anything else.
I'd be extremely interested in seeing the number in systems with experianced track drivers behind the wheel vs. the numbers witht he common darwin behind the wheel.
Data is important but you need to take a look at the lab and how it applies to your own driving as well.
I agree with more safe and tame driving on the street it is the way I am. But that same training means when carp hits the fan you can control the car, and I prefer it to do what I tell it to.
However my EXPERIENCE with the system is it cutting power needlessly to the wheels. When it does it to both front s equally I slow down or stay sitting, when it applies the brakes to a RF needlessly and with no warning the car takes a hard right nose dive and that light is flashing, I shut the system off and it stays that way, if the car is going to do and abrupt 180 degree turn, its going to be when I tell it to not when it feels like it.
However my EXPERIENCE with the system is it cutting power needlessly to the wheels. When it does it to both front s equally I slow down or stay sitting, when it applies the brakes to a RF needlessly and with no warning the car takes a hard right nose dive and that light is flashing, I shut the system off and it stays that way, if the car is going to do and abrupt 180 degree turn, its going to be when I tell it to not when it feels like it.
This reminds me of peoples logic on how AWD or 4WD is somehow more safe in snow and ice than a 2wd car. Every single car on the road (With the exception of some limited production cars or trucks) has 4 wheels contacting the ground, and will always have 4 wheels contacting the ground for Traction, braking, steering, etc. The ONLY time AWD is helpful is if you're in a situation where the surface you are on is too slippery for 2 tires to grip and get you moving, and 4 wheels moving distributes the force more with enough symmetry that the car can resume driving.
Again driver skill, and awareness, you never drive beyond the laws of physics you don't have to worry. There have been many times I have utilized the MINIs handling ability, many times I've utilized it braking ability and even acceleration to get out of bad situations. It is a car that is extremely forgiving when it comes to the need to make last minute maneuvers that require a quick change of direction. I've dodged deer, hydroplaned over 70MPH (One side), driven on ice, sand, snow, gravel pavement hot and cold I've driven on empty roads in the middle of the night and busy highways in rush hour. I have NEVER lost control of the MINI with the ASC off, I couldn't even do it, on a skid pad pulling the E-brake @ 40+ mph. I have put the car into the 4 wheel drift the Dr mentioned but I maintained control of the car and guided it to exactly where I wanted it. I "over cooked" a corner on the street ONCE, ASC was off I was on summer tires is was wet and cold, I was aware I went in too hot, down shift foot on the brake put the weight on the front wheels forced the turn and let the clutch out after the steering wheel was straight again, the 3 MINIs following me all were clueless of my understeer condition. You must learn how to never be out of control in the first place, and when the car is out of control and you are operating beyond the laws of physics well sorry no computer is going to help you there either. This is the same thing 4WDs have a problem with in snow they think because they can go faster that snow driving is safe (then you end up digging them out of the snow bank around the bend or explaining that their SUV weighs twice as much as that FWD car they just plowed into because they didn't realized they had 2x the mass to stop)
What DSC does do is take the average driver and cut the power before they are allowed to get out of control, and it takes the control of the car decision away from the driver. It's all about exercising good judgment and frankly I plan on keeping the judgment call to the person watching 70 sec down the road (or the horizon but basically as far ahead ab behind as physically possible) and the person who is smart enough to keep their car under control at all grip levels between 10 and 100% and isn't going to let those levels drop to 0%.
I anticipate what is going to happen, last night alone I had a close in counter with one person blowing a stop sign (but I was aware watched waited and honked as they didn't even dip the nose let alone yield right of way) one person blowing a red light (I had a green saw this person obviously would not stop judged my distance to the intersection decided to go straight instead of turn and floor it to 5 over) I clear the intersection no sooner that the other vehicle enter they intersection realize what they had done and skip to a stop after the intersection. Then started back up and keep going. I go through instances like this daily
And I still maintain complete control of my car. Like I said in another post 200k miles in 4 years not a single collision (no such thing as an accident as far as I'm concerned and rarely is it unavoidable, even if you aren't at fault there is usually something that you could have done to prevent it).
I don't go around corners any faster than what I can see the road approaching, I don't out drive my lights. I give appropriate following distance and make myself aware of every car around me. Ever have a passenger block two of your mirrors and still be able to tell the where the cars behind you are and what make model and color each was? I always leave an out so if the car in front of me blows a tire I have 1-4 places I can go, so when the idiot tailgating me doesn't stop I don't get hit.
Make smart decisions and you stay in control of your vehicle, where you can use the laws of physics to save your butt. Like I said there is no replacement for competent aware drivers who know how to control the car and handle themselves, if you can drive on the edge then, when you are no where near it (street driving) then there is zero reason to have a computer to remove your judgment. Traction control systems only help the drivers who don't know how to maintain control in the first place.
That has nothing to do with it and you are wrong on both counts. Age is unrelated to driving skill and the ability to make decisions and maturity.
What DSC does do is take the average driver and cut the power before they are allowed to get out of control, and it takes the control of the car decision away from the driver. It's all about exercising good judgment and frankly I plan on keeping the judgment call to the person watching 70 sec down the road (or the horizon but basically as far ahead ab behind as physically possible) and the person who is smart enough to keep their car under control at all grip levels between 10 and 100% and isn't going to let those levels drop to 0%.
I anticipate what is going to happen, last night alone I had a close in counter with one person blowing a stop sign (but I was aware watched waited and honked as they didn't even dip the nose let alone yield right of way) one person blowing a red light (I had a green saw this person obviously would not stop judged my distance to the intersection decided to go straight instead of turn and floor it to 5 over) I clear the intersection no sooner that the other vehicle enter they intersection realize what they had done and skip to a stop after the intersection. Then started back up and keep going. I go through instances like this daily
And I still maintain complete control of my car. Like I said in another post 200k miles in 4 years not a single collision (no such thing as an accident as far as I'm concerned and rarely is it unavoidable, even if you aren't at fault there is usually something that you could have done to prevent it).I don't go around corners any faster than what I can see the road approaching, I don't out drive my lights. I give appropriate following distance and make myself aware of every car around me. Ever have a passenger block two of your mirrors and still be able to tell the where the cars behind you are and what make model and color each was? I always leave an out so if the car in front of me blows a tire I have 1-4 places I can go, so when the idiot tailgating me doesn't stop I don't get hit.
Make smart decisions and you stay in control of your vehicle, where you can use the laws of physics to save your butt. Like I said there is no replacement for competent aware drivers who know how to control the car and handle themselves, if you can drive on the edge then, when you are no where near it (street driving) then there is zero reason to have a computer to remove your judgment. Traction control systems only help the drivers who don't know how to maintain control in the first place.
That has nothing to do with it and you are wrong on both counts. Age is unrelated to driving skill and the ability to make decisions and maturity.
#105
01-13-2007, 05:05 PM
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#106
01-13-2007, 05:05 PM
Ugh. I hate reading posts like this because they are so false... for the last time. ASC has NOTHING TO DO WITH DSC!!!!!!! NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY NOTHING. DSC Controls individual wheels brakes in an attempt to control Yaw (Right left spinning motion or the nose going in a direction you don't want it to) ASC Controls traction by modulating engine speed. The two systems have NOTHING to do with one another, and whether or not you purchase the $500 option to have a computer assist in regaining control of the car should it spin you will STILL experience a loss of engine power should your front wheels spin. If you don't like DSC that's all fine and dandy, but if you don't know what you're talking about, please don't post garbage about safety systems! I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but i'm tired of reading nonsense every day about how people hate DSC because it causes them to lose power when they're accelerating. It CAN'T HAPPEN. DSC has nothing to do with you losing power! If you hate that feature of your MINI, don't buy one, cause they all come with it!
Now go read the rest of the thread and do the research. When you're willing to back up your statements with documents. I'm not going to waste my time with something thats already been discussed. And as for your last sentence well, thats why we shut it off!
#108
01-13-2007, 05:42 PM
Takes some time to read 4 pages on something that has been discussed 1000 times before on this forum.
ASC+T Traction, Nothing more
DSC Spin Control Nothing more... Happy?
DSC has ASC+T Built into it... it is no more or less sensitive to loss of traction. If you dislike the way ASC+T works, that's fine, so do all of us! But DSC has absolutely nothing to do with your power loss.
As I said before, if your car started to lose it and spin, it had nothing to do with ASC+T, all that does is stall the engine timing a bit to help the tires catch up.
ASC+T Traction, Nothing more
DSC Spin Control Nothing more... Happy?
DSC has ASC+T Built into it... it is no more or less sensitive to loss of traction. If you dislike the way ASC+T works, that's fine, so do all of us! But DSC has absolutely nothing to do with your power loss.
As I said before, if your car started to lose it and spin, it had nothing to do with ASC+T, all that does is stall the engine timing a bit to help the tires catch up.
#109
01-13-2007, 05:49 PM
I can see that you're obviously the best driver on the planet, because even race drivers crash on the TRACK in a CONTROLLED Environment. I also find it comical that you feel that no accident is unavoidable. Try this... Car made an illegal left turn in front of me as I ENTERED an intersection. In less than 1 second I made the decision to swerve right, noticed a pedestrian in the x-walk, and made the SECOND decision to hit the car that had made the turn rather than risk injuring or killing a pedestrian. I suppose if you had been driving you would have figured out some way to avoid it, because no accident is unavoidable!
Ugh... people who think they're gods disturb me. You're not invincible, you're an 8 out of 10 on the driver skill scale, MAYBE.
DSC can and ALWAYS will be able to avoid situations that you could not possibly begin to avoid, for the simple reason that you cannot modulate individual brakes to augment steering ability. There's only so much you can do in the drivers seat, DSC amplifies your ability as a driver to maintain control of your car. ASC+T is rather annoying most of the time and really only helpful on slippery surfaces when applying too much power would cause the wheels to spin and could send you sliding down an icy hill.
This reminds me of peoples logic on how AWD or 4WD is somehow more safe in snow and ice than a 2wd car. Every single car on the road (With the exception of some limited production cars or trucks) has 4 wheels contacting the ground, and will always have 4 wheels contacting the ground for Traction, braking, steering, etc. The ONLY time AWD is helpful is if you're in a situation where the surface you are on is too slippery for 2 tires to grip and get you moving, and 4 wheels moving distributes the force more with enough symmetry that the car can resume driving.
#110
01-13-2007, 05:59 PM
Those of you who are getting ticked off about this topic:The ASC and DSC are connected...they may be 2 separate systems, but they are either both on or both off. Don't get so pissy! Grab a pair of tweezers, insert into rectum, squeeze the tweezers, and remove the giant bug that appears to have crawled up your ***.
#111
01-13-2007, 06:23 PM
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#112
01-13-2007, 06:24 PM
I agree (As so most people who drive spiritedly) that ASC+T is a hinderance more than a help, but DSC is no such thing, and to knock it without fully understanding it is foolish. My example accident was an accident I was involved in over a year ago, and trust me, no amount of defensive driving would have helped. The driver was paused in the middle of the intersection, as all drivers do when waiting to turn left against traffic. The pedestrian was nowhere in sight, and was standing on the corner at the time I entered the intersection, and there was oncoming traffic to the left, which I did not wish to risk hitting (Would have made the accident my fault for making careless judgement). As far as reaction time is concerned, whether I was going 20 MPH or 40 MPH, someone who makes a left hand turn at the very instant I cross the stop line for an intersection (I'm not talking about 50 feet, I'm talking about 8-10 feet of clearance, he must have thought I was going to slam on my brakes the second I got into the intersection... in which case I probably still would have hit him). Could I have swerved around the pedestrian in the x-walk and gotten out of the accident unscathed? Maybe... I don't dwell on past scenarios and try to play it out in my head. Accidents happen fast, had my DSC not been on then, who knows how I would have faired.
I've never been in a situation that DSC has kicked in, but if I ever am, i'll be glad I have it. As I stated, professional race car drivers get in accidents all the time, they're the best drivers in the world, yet it happens, could some of them be prevented if DSC had kicked in and prevented that spin? Sure, maybe, who knows.
DSC saves lives, statistics show it, logic shows it, it's not complicated.
ASC+T is something completely different and usually is just a pain in the ***.
The systems are connected to one another, presumably for simplicity, but the question lingers, is DSC worth the $500 option cost... it is in my mind.
Knock one, not both, DSC never did anything, and can only help.
I've never been in a situation that DSC has kicked in, but if I ever am, i'll be glad I have it. As I stated, professional race car drivers get in accidents all the time, they're the best drivers in the world, yet it happens, could some of them be prevented if DSC had kicked in and prevented that spin? Sure, maybe, who knows.
DSC saves lives, statistics show it, logic shows it, it's not complicated.
ASC+T is something completely different and usually is just a pain in the ***.
The systems are connected to one another, presumably for simplicity, but the question lingers, is DSC worth the $500 option cost... it is in my mind.
Knock one, not both, DSC never did anything, and can only help.
Watch a head anticipate brake veer left toawrd the rear of the turning vehicle. If there is an impact then you're in the least amount of force from the impact if soeone cuts in front of you like that the last thing you want to do is put yourself where they are going to be. And if you tell me there was no time then you were too fast for conditions and not watching far enough down the road. And you should have checked the inercestion for pedestrians befoe arriving at it, and had these descions pre-planned.
Never made any such comment, I am just as prone to a collision as anybody else out there all it takes is a tenth a second of inattention or laspse fo judgement, should I be involved in a collision even if I am not the "at fault" car I still will find weak points in my driving and know that corrections need to be made. As the driver I am soley responsible for my passengers my car and myself, and I believe there would be far few crashes if this attidue were more prevelant. However, I have found that DSC and ASC when I have driven such equipped veichiles hindered my driving as in iterfered with my control fo the car through improper brake application and power cutting. I don't need bakes kicking in when I you throttle modulation to move a car laterally in a corner/multilane tun/on-ramp.
For me this goes back another conversation about the LSD, as the LSD and throttle modulation will easily control it however I can't modulate throttle when I have to keep guess how much the computer is going to interfere witht he inputs because I've had the light flash in steady state dry flat clean roads (ASC improperly activating) as well as sitting before the wheels start (Traction) ASC is not traction control ASC includes traction control and DSC includes ASC+T Again if you read the whole thread or read the MINI documentaion this is made clear.
Agreed too many here have posted examples of situations where DSC "saves" you and example defies physics. MINI even acknowledges this cannot happen. I do believe the average driver is safer witht he system on because the average driver is reactionary instead of proactive and the average driver is not **** about vehicle condition. I have posted such examples already.
Never made any such comment, I am just as prone to a collision as anybody else out there all it takes is a tenth a second of inattention or laspse fo judgement, should I be involved in a collision even if I am not the "at fault" car I still will find weak points in my driving and know that corrections need to be made. As the driver I am soley responsible for my passengers my car and myself, and I believe there would be far few crashes if this attidue were more prevelant. However, I have found that DSC and ASC when I have driven such equipped veichiles hindered my driving as in iterfered with my control fo the car through improper brake application and power cutting. I don't need bakes kicking in when I you throttle modulation to move a car laterally in a corner/multilane tun/on-ramp.
For me this goes back another conversation about the LSD, as the LSD and throttle modulation will easily control it however I can't modulate throttle when I have to keep guess how much the computer is going to interfere witht he inputs because I've had the light flash in steady state dry flat clean roads (ASC improperly activating) as well as sitting before the wheels start (Traction) ASC is not traction control ASC includes traction control and DSC includes ASC+T Again if you read the whole thread or read the MINI documentaion this is made clear.
Agreed too many here have posted examples of situations where DSC "saves" you and example defies physics. MINI even acknowledges this cannot happen. I do believe the average driver is safer witht he system on because the average driver is reactionary instead of proactive and the average driver is not **** about vehicle condition. I have posted such examples already.
#114
01-14-2007, 06:12 AM
I've never been in a situation that DSC has kicked in, but if I ever am, i'll be glad I have it. As I stated, professional race car drivers get in accidents all the time, they're the best drivers in the world, yet it happens, could some of them be prevented if DSC had kicked in and prevented that spin? Sure, maybe, who knows.
DSC saves lives, statistics show it, logic shows it, it's not complicated.
ASC+T is something completely different and usually is just a pain in the ***.
The systems are connected to one another, presumably for simplicity, but the question lingers, is DSC worth the $500 option cost... it is in my mind.
Knock one, not both, DSC never did anything, and can only help.
ASC+T is something completely different and usually is just a pain in the ***.
The systems are connected to one another, presumably for simplicity, but the question lingers, is DSC worth the $500 option cost... it is in my mind.
Knock one, not both, DSC never did anything, and can only help.
Well you might say, HA! thats obvious, weight savings, they are too heavy. Hmm, well maybe, but if you've ever seen a professional cage, I think you'd recognise that all that tubing weighs a bunch and bags might actually reduce some weight by affording some tube removal. So why aren't airbags in racing?
Because safety in a race car is a SYSTEM, not a random collection of cool technologies that might just happen to work together. It is a SYSTEM with each component designed to work as seemlessly as possible with the next. Harnesses, roll cages, fire surpression, Hans Devices, fire suits, helmets, seats all are components of a complete system in which each component acts with the other to afford the driver protection. Lets take an obvious example, if you used every item on this list except a helmet, how safe would you be? Contrary to what one might think is obvious, testing shows that airbags, harnesses and helmets don't mix particularly well. Now airbags might be an absolutely cracking innovation, but in the context of a safety system in a race car, they make you less safe, so they are not part of the mix.
Enigine management + traction Control + ABS + Yaw sensing + steering angle sensors + some hueristics ~= DSC. It is a system. If you think thre are three different sensors per wheel, one for ABS, one for ASC and one for DSC, I suspect your mistaken. There is a sensor that determines wheel speed. Thats it. Thats the hardware bit. Its an oversimplified educated guess, but ASC is something like,
if ( (throttle > 0) && (left front wheel speed - front right wheel speed > Too_much_differential ) ) {
Obviously its far more complex than this... But all the software that makes this magic possible has to intereact appropriately with eachother. I'm just pointing out that in the end its simply a dumb computer program that you've chosen to depend on to save your life. It is subject to all the fraility that any other software system is subject to. I suggest you think seriously about that. throttle -= 1;
resample();
} resample();
You can't remove a piece of it without compromising what the system is. Neither I, nor I suspect you have any clue as to precisely what DSC is doing and when, unless we dump the code, examine it to figure out what the engineers decided to do. These are hueristics, not algorithms. Put more simply, they are best guesses at whats going on, not hard and fast obvious rules that if X happens then do Y whereas if Z happens do Q. Maybe when DSC incorporates vision or radar technology so that it understands the surroundings and the exact circumstance the car finds itself in, it will be everything you think it is. And if you still think you really know how it works and whats going on, l'll ask you a simple question. Does DSC adjust its intervention thresholds on the basis of altitude and/or temperature?
One can only view DSC as the summation of a whole series of tecnological innovations. Thats what it is. If you think that DSC improves the experience over ASC-T thats fine, although again, you haven't actually experienced it, so you are simply doing so on absolutely blind faith and nothing more. BUT, in my world, I drive an automobile, not a unrelated collection of alphabet soup. I take the machine as a machine and look at the total experience to evaluate it.
#115
01-14-2007, 07:52 AM
One can only view DSC as the summation of a whole series of tecnological innovations. Thats what it is. If you think that DSC improves the experience over ASC-T thats fine, although again, you haven't actually experienced it, so you are simply doing so on absolutely blind faith and nothing more. BUT, in my world, I drive an automobile, not a unrelated collection of alphabet soup. I take the machine as a machine and look at the total experience to evaluate it.
For Dr. O.
http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/...ng-column.html
"Everybody—magazine editors, industry engineers, NHTSA, and even the self-appointed Center for Auto Safety types—appreciated the benefits of ABS and expected a meaningful safety payoff. Yet despite this unanimity, no study has ever found that ABS has in any way reduced traffic accidents or fatalities"
WOW! ABS useless!!! But read on and this ties to what rjmann is saying ...
The NHTSA study found that vehicles fitted with ESC had 42 percent fewer single-vehicle crashes and 40 percent fewer fatalities in those crashes. The IIHS study results were even more positive, with single-vehicle crashes declining by 41 percent and fatalities in such crashes plunging by 56 percent. ...ESC uses ABS's ability to individually control a vehicle's brakes to deliver additional benefits. (ESC requires four-channel ABS.)
But wait ... what about "good drivers?"
ESC provides limited benefits to a competent driver on dry roads. But on slick surfaces, the system is magic.
But ... what if you panic? NOT GOOD.
All ESC demands is that you make an attempt to steer in a generally reasonable direction.
Now couple that sentence with this:
"... In a steady turn with [ESC] the steering wheel has to remain close to the desired turning angle (with little or no "sawing") to allow the computer to determine proper corrections if a loss if traction develops. ..."
"Electronic Driving Aids", Caldwell, Panorama, Jan. 2007
(funny, what are the odds of an article that came in the mail yesterday of ESC?)
So what does it mean. Hmm, ABS alone not worth the money. NO statistics whatsoever to back it up.
ESC WILL save your butt provided you keep on line
One more tidbit
"... and rumours indicate it will soon become a federal requirement for all new US automobiles"
(Same article above on ESC)So figure in a year or two ... DSC will be "free" like ASC will be free along with TPMS
#116
01-14-2007, 08:35 AM
No rumors...
DSC or it's other names manditory by 2012.....
But those are good quotes. On the dry roads, good drivers are good drivers. I guess the point for the good drivers is that not all surfaces are dry in dry weather, and that other crap is on the road surfaces as well, that isnt' predictable.
But with known crappy surfaces, the DSC systems will help even the best of drivers.
Some of the comments about not sawing the steering etc make perfect sense. Also, as the software gets better in these things, it will still work with a wider range of driver input, but if the driver is saying "go here, uh, go there, uh, no over there, opps I meant thatway" it's easy to understand how the systems get confused. They don't see the road and have to guess the line based on driver inputs.
As far as the commanality of the systems, they do share some of the same sensors, and differ in the code that is run against the sensor inputs. They are different functions that share some data sources. I don't know if the code actually takes into acount what each is doing, but I'd guess that without some prioritization, the code would get more confused....
Matt
But those are good quotes. On the dry roads, good drivers are good drivers. I guess the point for the good drivers is that not all surfaces are dry in dry weather, and that other crap is on the road surfaces as well, that isnt' predictable.
But with known crappy surfaces, the DSC systems will help even the best of drivers.
Some of the comments about not sawing the steering etc make perfect sense. Also, as the software gets better in these things, it will still work with a wider range of driver input, but if the driver is saying "go here, uh, go there, uh, no over there, opps I meant thatway" it's easy to understand how the systems get confused. They don't see the road and have to guess the line based on driver inputs.
As far as the commanality of the systems, they do share some of the same sensors, and differ in the code that is run against the sensor inputs. They are different functions that share some data sources. I don't know if the code actually takes into acount what each is doing, but I'd guess that without some prioritization, the code would get more confused....
Matt
#117
01-14-2007, 10:03 AM
But those are good quotes. On the dry roads, good drivers are good drivers. I guess the point for the good drivers is that not all surfaces are dry in dry weather, and that other crap is on the road surfaces as well, that isnt' predictable. ...
Some of the comments about not sawing the steering etc make perfect sense. Also, as the software gets better in these things, it will still work with a wider range of driver input, prioritization, the code would get more confused....
Some of the comments about not sawing the steering etc make perfect sense. Also, as the software gets better in these things, it will still work with a wider range of driver input, prioritization, the code would get more confused....
Some more info. Having, of course, driven a MCS many time, I DO think DSC is intrusive in normal, dry driving. Its would appear that MINI has "purposely" set the thresheld "high" ... for the masses ... and that might be what some ppl complain about.
On the other hand, I quote from the same article:
"The [ECS IS] designed to let the driver get very close to lose of control before the cut in to keep the car under control. Many owners ... never set it off in spite of fairly spirited cornering"
Now that is with it "on". Again, even with it "off", its still "on" but at even a lower threshold. Maybe DSC thresholds are just to high for the enthusiasts.
As to gravel and other stuff on the road, well MINI just isn't there yet. That comes with, at least for Porsche, in PASM ... the sensor detect everything including lifting, pitching, load, etc and automatically adjust the suspension for the road surface.
Far more interesting is you mentioned the software.
"The big question for many owners is how reliable these new [systems] will be. Past systems ... were soon forgotten after many hydro/mechanical failures [talking 1969/1971 attempts]. With the current trend of using digital processing and simpler implementation schemes, it may boil down to how long the initial software algorithms in the subprocessor systems will last and whether or not the software could ever be upgraded or replaced"
Being an old programmer. That scarier for two reasons:
- I know for a fact that software sometime just quicks working ... time to reload. Technology gets better all the time but this isn't like a moon-shot with quadruple backup systems.
- Updated or replacing the software
Better hope its not windows
and is upward compatable or people will be buying replacement chips for these systems
#118
01-14-2007, 11:13 AM
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A couple of things chow........
When you state that DSC is intrusive on dry roads are you talking about the traction control?
And about the ABS stats. Since when do people submit evidence that ABS kept them out of an accident? LAst week the ABS in my company truck saved me from an accident on a snowy,wet road when a guy couldn't stop at an intersection cause he had all 4 wheels locked up and couldn't stop while I could and did.
I really hope we can start talking about DSC instead of just the traction control that we all hate.
When you state that DSC is intrusive on dry roads are you talking about the traction control?
And about the ABS stats. Since when do people submit evidence that ABS kept them out of an accident? LAst week the ABS in my company truck saved me from an accident on a snowy,wet road when a guy couldn't stop at an intersection cause he had all 4 wheels locked up and couldn't stop while I could and did.
I really hope we can start talking about DSC instead of just the traction control that we all hate.
#119
01-14-2007, 11:42 AM
In post #75 you quoted for DSC:
This system optimizes driving stability and traction, especially when just starting off, when accelerating or when cornering
Since the DSC "incorporates the ASC" then I'm talking DSC.
If you mean it wont let you spin the wheels in first gear. Yeah everyone hates that I guess, but I've also seen the DSC light flicker at other times.
"In the early days of ABS systems (1989-1999), the expected reduction in accidents with ABS never statistically materialized. However, in the past five years, industry accident data gathered by the National Highway Traffic Safety Agency (NHSTA) has shown a 42 percent reduction in single vehicle accidents and 40 percent fewer fatalities in those accident with cars that use an [ECS]"
Now to go back to the C&D article in more depth ...
Herein perhaps lies the reason why ESC is so effective. If you unexpectedly hit glare ice, or suddenly swerve back onto the road after you drift off while dialing your cell phone, ESC will come to your aid. All ESC demands is that you make an attempt to steer in a generally reasonable direction.
On the other hand, to get the most out of ABS, you must be proactive. You must brake—without pumping the pedal—hard enough to take full advantage of the available traction. You should also try to steer around whatever is in front of you. ABS will help you do these things, but how many drivers have the presence of mind to simultaneously brake hard and steer? In fact, even in an emergency, many drivers never even press their brake pedals hard enough to lock their wheels or engage ABS.
I think your looking at it backwards. I think the NHSTA looks AT the accidents and to see if the car had ABS. If it did ... and the fault was because of braking ... there is a statistic.Your saying "It saved me", but that is not an accident statistic. If, in fact, you had the accident and ABS was employed (and it looks like many drivers dont even hit the brakes hard enuff) ... THEN, you would be part of the statistics.
Also, dont forget, its got to be statistically significant as they said ... it can't be some number of accidents in the noise.
#120
01-14-2007, 12:08 PM
Ill give a personal account of when DSC would have saved my last car. I was coming off a highway ramp at about 60mph (slightly fast for this section). The streets were slightly damp, but I hit an oilslick at the end of the turn. The front wheels spun and I had no steering. The back tires hit the slick and the car spun right into the wall. I had no traction and the DSC would have kept that from happening.
#121
01-14-2007, 12:09 PM
#122
01-14-2007, 12:13 PM
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I am still not sire what you mean by the light has come on "other times". Has this been when the traction control has engaged or not? If not then you were probably in an under- or over-steer situation.
If the stats are gathered in the way you suggest, then the results are highly suggestive. If the car has ABS and it gets into an accident, by what criteria can the investigators determine whether or not the ABS could have prevented the accident. A survey of near accidents would be a much better statistic.
If the stats are gathered in the way you suggest, then the results are highly suggestive. If the car has ABS and it gets into an accident, by what criteria can the investigators determine whether or not the ABS could have prevented the accident. A survey of near accidents would be a much better statistic.
#123
01-14-2007, 12:13 PM
Well stated again
Now couple that sentence with this:
"... In a steady turn with [ESC] the steering wheel has to remain close to the desired turning angle (with little or no "sawing") to allow the computer to determine proper corrections if a loss if traction develops. ..."
So what does it mean. Hmm, ABS alone not worth the money. NO statistics whatsoever to back it up.
ESC WILL save your butt provided you keep on line
One more tidbit
"... and rumours indicate it will soon become a federal requirement for all new US automobiles"
(Same article above on ESC)So figure in a year or two ... DSC will be "free" like ASC will be free along with TPMS
Now couple that sentence with this:
"... In a steady turn with [ESC] the steering wheel has to remain close to the desired turning angle (with little or no "sawing") to allow the computer to determine proper corrections if a loss if traction develops. ..."
So what does it mean. Hmm, ABS alone not worth the money. NO statistics whatsoever to back it up.
ESC WILL save your butt provided you keep on line
One more tidbit
"... and rumours indicate it will soon become a federal requirement for all new US automobiles"
(Same article above on ESC)So figure in a year or two ... DSC will be "free" like ASC will be free along with TPMS
This is the most salient point of all. Just as ABS requires certain driver behavior to be useful (ie just mash your foot to the floor, many accidents have been blamed on ABS as the driver exclaimed that the brakes had 'failed... the pedal was kicking back on me so I pulled my foot off the brake'). If you were raised with brakes that actually lock up, you develop an understanding of what that means. When a new technology comes along and you have to retrain yourself otherwise you are actually at greater potential risk. But few outside of enthusiasts actually understand that each innovation requires something of the driver as well. To the below average person ABS simply means its must be a better car than one without ABS, to the average person it means the brakes are better than one brakes without ABS. Neither of these viewpoints are at all true. To the sophisticated person, it means that one needs to modify their notion of threshold braking and steering input as the brakes will no longer lock. Translated to DSC we note that one shouldn't saw the wheel. I sugest you search the web for the amazing video clip the BBC did on Michael Schumacher. In it, they look at the data traces of Schumacher versus then teamate Eddie Irvine. They show MS's steering traces through copse corner at Silverstone. Take a good look at how the steering wheel trace is constantly correcting through the corner. How well a sophisticated DSC system would cope with such input when tires are on the limit of adhesion is obviously conjecture. But the fact is it would likely be lurking in the background thinking about when to intervene. And the driver, will need to adjust his driving style to accomodate this fact.
Personally, I've no interest in big brother legislating a software version of himself that is forceable included into any automobile I might otherwise entertain owning. I believe that people should be able to make their own informed choices and then live with the consequences of thse decisions. Most of these devices exist because the ability of 97.6% (a guess) of licensed drivers to control an automobile is simply crap. For whatever set of reasons we fail to see fit to actually train drivers and demand higher levels of ability before we bestow unto them the privilege, not the right, to drive on the public roadways. As a result people die who might otherwise not have. What to do? Find a fix that abrogates any personal culpability on the part of the operator of the automobile. Remember automatic seatbelts? We'd still have them today were it not for airbags. And we have them , not becuase its necessarily a better solution, (contemplate all the children who were killed as the result of front seat air bag deployments due to a complete failure of engineering systems that take this problem into account) but because a large majority of the public was, and likely remains, to friggin stupid to actually buckle up.
Will these systems work? Perhaps. BUT again, I think these studies are quite general and certainly premature. What I have seen in the 3 decades of driving I've done is that drivers are far faster, far less involved due to increased distractions and generally have the false belief that thre new big abs, asc, dsc, ebd, etc equipped SUV is built tough and will save there butt no matter what the circumstance. Take the third brake light studies. Initially they demonstrated in such surveys that they had a dramatic effect on reducing the number and severity of rear end collisions. Of course once all cars were so equipped rates rose again, as the lights became familiar and therefore no longer were novel enough for drivers to pay attention to. Even totally incompetant drivers operate through feel and comfort level. People do 90 on the cell phone in their Escalade in the left hand lane because they mistakenly sense that even if something happened, they be fine. Hence we see, that SUVs have been increasingly involved in rollover acidents. I have worried and continue to do so, that systems such as DSC do little in the final analysis, as many drivers, once accustomed to the higher comfort zone they afford will simply and naturally take advantage of it. What this means is that when things do go wrong, they will be dead as speed versus energy isn't linear.
#124
01-14-2007, 12:44 PM
Ill give a personal account of when DSC would have saved my last car. I was coming off a highway ramp at about 60mph (slightly fast for this section). The streets were slightly damp, but I hit an oilslick at the end of the turn. The front wheels spun and I had no steering. The back tires hit the slick and the car spun right into the wall. I had no traction and the DSC would have kept that from happening.
#125
01-14-2007, 02:11 PM
You'd be surprised..
I was reading some guys blog who was cracking an ECU. He found that each table was stored three different places, with both comparison and parity checks. If you think about it, each cylider fire is controlled by code in our cars. The timing of each cylinder firing is calculated separately! And it does this for years and years of operation, with ECU failurs being a relatively rare occurance. I think there's more redundancy and fault tolerance built into them than you might imagine....
Matt
Matt