But you are not going to be able to control a car that is going out of control. That is the benefit od DSC. ASC+T is not a less intrusive system. It will not become active in as many situations as the DSC will because it doesn't react to as many situations as DSC does (specifically over- and under-steering). These systems will only become active when you have lost control of the car.

There is no way for you to know what is coming around the next corner or intersection. DSC is there for the times when you will have but the barest of time to try and react to a certain situation. Being aware of your surroundings is an excellent way to drive. But it won't help you a bit if you find yourself in a situation that requires a quick change of direction and you find your car won't go where you want it because of the laws of physics. I have never heard of anyone complaining that DSC caused their car to go somewhere other than where they wanted it to go.

 

Question Motor On would you be in you 20's maybe early 30's but I'll go with 20's?

 

let's not get agist.....

There will be all sorts of opinions here, and we can all agree to disagree. But I keep forgetting we're the "Lake Wobegone" website.... Where everyones driving skills is above average!

Matt

 

Again driver skill, and awareness, you never drive beyond the laws of physics you don't have to worry. There have been many times I have utilized the MINIs handling ability, many times I've utilized it braking ability and even acceleration to get out of bad situations. It is a car that is extremely forgiving when it comes to the need to make last minute maneuvers that require a quick change of direction. I've dodged deer, hydroplaned over 70MPH (One side), driven on ice, sand, snow, gravel pavement hot and cold I've driven on empty roads in the middle of the night and busy highways in rush hour. I have NEVER lost control of the MINI with the ASC off, I couldn't even do it, on a skid pad pulling the E-brake @ 40+ mph. I have put the car into the 4 wheel drift the Dr mentioned but I maintained control of the car and guided it to exactly where I wanted it. I "over cooked" a corner on the street ONCE, ASC was off I was on summer tires is was wet and cold, I was aware I went in too hot, down shift foot on the brake put the weight on the front wheels forced the turn and let the clutch out after the steering wheel was straight again, the 3 MINIs following me all were clueless of my understeer condition. You must learn how to never be out of control in the first place, and when the car is out of control and you are operating beyond the laws of physics well sorry no computer is going to help you there either. This is the same thing 4WDs have a problem with in snow they think because they can go faster that snow driving is safe (then you end up digging them out of the snow bank around the bend or explaining that their SUV weighs twice as much as that FWD car they just plowed into because they didn't realized they had 2x the mass to stop)

What DSC does do is take the average driver and cut the power before they are allowed to get out of control, and it takes the control of the car decision away from the driver. It's all about exercising good judgment and frankly I plan on keeping the judgment call to the person watching 70 sec down the road (or the horizon but basically as far ahead ab behind as physically possible) and the person who is smart enough to keep their car under control at all grip levels between 10 and 100% and isn't going to let those levels drop to 0%.

I anticipate what is going to happen, last night alone I had a close in counter with one person blowing a stop sign (but I was aware watched waited and honked as they didn't even dip the nose let alone yield right of way) one person blowing a red light (I had a green saw this person obviously would not stop judged my distance to the intersection decided to go straight instead of turn and floor it to 5 over) I clear the intersection no sooner that the other vehicle enter they intersection realize what they had done and skip to a stop after the intersection. Then started back up and keep going. I go through instances like this daily And I still maintain complete control of my car. Like I said in another post 200k miles in 4 years not a single collision (no such thing as an accident as far as I'm concerned and rarely is it unavoidable, even if you aren't at fault there is usually something that you could have done to prevent it).

I don't go around corners any faster than what I can see the road approaching, I don't out drive my lights. I give appropriate following distance and make myself aware of every car around me. Ever have a passenger block two of your mirrors and still be able to tell the where the cars behind you are and what make model and color each was? I always leave an out so if the car in front of me blows a tire I have 1-4 places I can go, so when the idiot tailgating me doesn't stop I don't get hit.

Make smart decisions and you stay in control of your vehicle, where you can use the laws of physics to save your butt. Like I said there is no replacement for competent aware drivers who know how to control the car and handle themselves, if you can drive on the edge then, when you are no where near it (street driving) then there is zero reason to have a computer to remove your judgment. Traction control systems only help the drivers who don't know how to maintain control in the first place.

That has nothing to do with it and you are wrong on both counts. Age is unrelated to driving skill and the ability to make decisions and maturity.

 

Hmmm... and just as I was about to chime in after a year's hiatus from NAM all the while enjoying my car with the ASC-T off. All I can say is that I have on a number of occasions, pulling out hard into traffic and having forgotten to defeat the traction control, nearly been rear ended as power was cut unexpectedly and severely due to perfectly controllable inside wheel slip. This is not a situation where the driver has in any way lost control, excepting that ASC has intruded to make it so. With significant lock & power applied, ASC is extremely intrusive, at least on an LSD equipped MCS. If the comments around ASC being less intrusive are true, I'm sure I personally would find DSC unbearable. Last winter, it was clear the car was far more controllable in snow with ASC off, largely due to what I suspect is the LSD and ASC competing to manage slip. Can't speak from personal experience as to the LSD/DSC combo, but needless to say, I'm not overly fond of the cars traits with LSD and ASC (when active).

As to the stats page you referenced, while DSC systems may well be the saviour of cell phone gabbing drivers the world over, there was no breakdown as to who was being saved. Was this a general improvement or did certain age groups benefit more? Was the distribution uniform across vehicle type or was the benefit skewed to particular catagories? These surveys were quite general and seemed to involve SUVs as well (which undoubtedly benefit bigtime) and likely most cars were far heavier and with far less chassis than the MINI. So are the results truly applicable to this car or is this a 'your mileage may vary' scenario?

If I were in the market for a new tow vehicle, there is little doubt that I'd tick off the stability control box. There the benefits outweigh the deficiencies, and make no mistake, there are, even for a modestly skilled driver, undoubtedly some deficiencies. After a year of driving the car without incident, and this through all manner of heavy weather on Falken Azenis, not the best all weather tire available, I, for one, am completely satisfied that in my case, DSC is unnecessary. I would never discourage anyone from ticking the box on this option if they've never carted, tracked, AXed, ice raced what have you. But from the perspective of an experienced driver, I have absolutely no regrets that my MINI lacks DSC.

 

I can completely agree with all of this but you raise an interesting point as I too have the LSD with ASC often feel the computer competes with the diff and I wonder if we end up seeing a more significant computer opression, I cant hardly imagine the car computer beign more intrusive than it already is.

 

There are 3 tpyes of lies:

Lies
Damn-Lies
and Statistics

Sorry but without a breakdown of the numbers, it is very hard to look at a percentage and say, yes that "thing" is better or worse. Were the stats for DSC and TC compoiled in the summer, winter, spring? Were the drivers travelling at or above the speed limit? Were drugs and alcohol involved? There are so many questions to be raised.

and by the way, I only believe statistics I make up myself...

 

You keep trying to compare ASC+T and DSC. They are very different systems. I would suggest you go to the MINIUSA site and search for DSC. It has some very good info on it and the differences with ASC+T.

DSC will not engage until it senses the car is way out of control (under- or over-steering) and then it will simply apply some braking to an individual wheel to assist you in maintaining control. To totally put down a system you have no experience with is in my opinion very disrespectful and insulting.

There has been MANY MANY posts about the traction control and it being WAY to sensitive. Dr. O and us are talking about the whole system, not just the traction control. Which by the way I HATE ! ! LOL

 

Kind of reminds me of the mid-to-late 1980's, when passive restraint systems started becoming mandatory. In the beginning, cars had to have either airbags or automatic seatbelts. I never liked the automatic seatbelts - I wear my seatbelts religiously, 100% of the time, so the automatic seatbelts were an added cost and a nuisance, because they never seemed to fit as securely as manual belts. I'm sure they saved some lives among people that might not have worn a seatbelt otherwise, but for me, they were just a nuisance. I like airbags better, because they actually afford an *additional* measure of protection, rather than just converting a manual system to an automatic one.


I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about the automatic traction controls in the MINI. The only time they've cut power unexpectedly on me was when I forgot to turn DSC off at the track.

 

And MINIUSA in addition to MAs SAs and Techs all agree and are aware that DSC INCLUDES ASC+T And that having DSC will cause the system to activate EVEN more often. As having Just the ASC+T I can tell you it is an overbearing babysitter, that eliminates the drivers ability to make judgements and control the car reliably. In additon the OP comments are based on traction control systems in general!!!!!

No disrespect or in insults intended. and FYI I have test driven and driven loaners with DSC and had it kick so while not as extensive a background with the system I do know what I am talking about.

 

Having read you post, I think we are on the same page on this subject. Anyhoo, I certainly have the sense that there is a definite lack of synergy between the electronics and the LSD. I have no idea whether the ASC/DSC algorithm is modified if the car is LSD equipped, but by my seat of the pants, I'd truly be surprised if the program wasn't the same regardless. In which case, you might imagine that we are indeed experiencing the two disconnected systems warring with eachother.

 

It was one of my very first impressions as soon as I hit snow, fel thte computer kept trying to change what he LSD was desgined to do, shut if off and manage to go merrily along my way. I doubt they software was significantly adjusted ofr it with all the data that owuldbe nessecary to implement such changes to a system that sits between the driver and the road in regards to critical car controls.

 

I personally like to leave it on. I am in the habit now of turning it off when it's raining and I need to dart across the street to avoid traffic. I turn it off when I know it will go off at a bad time. I also turn it off when I feel like driving like an ***! I know when it will interfere, and during those times, I turn it off and then turn it back on immediately. To me this is a minor compromise for the potential "predictable" hazards that DSC can cause. The accidents on the other hand, will usually happen when you don't expect it. There is the inherent problem with the TC part of it, in that the moment a tire spins a little, it cuts off the fuel. I want to get an ECU remap soon anyway, so I will go with MTH to help fix these problems. I wish there was a remap that would nearly eliminate the fuel cutoff aspect, as I know when to apply and remove my foot from the gas pedal.

If you need to avoid a major accident in the rain by swerving really fast and it's pouring down rain and the highway looks like a freaking moving river, the DSC will stop the tires from simply hydroplaning when you have to turn the wheel really fast. I love having this piece of mind. If you don't have to worry about torrential downpours or icy temperatures, then don't buy it. Track experience will not save you when all 4 wheels are hydroplaning...the DSC will by applying the ABS to the correct wheels.

 

Interesting: I do exactly the opposite. I use Ian's Auto-Off to keep the DSC turned off all the time, and I turn it on when the limits of traction are uncertain, such as on wet or icy streets. On dry pavement, I can get much better acceleration from manual control, and times through the corners are faster as well.

 

MotorOn, get off of the traction control problem PLEASE ! !

Dr. O asked a question about DSC and its value. Not just about traction control. We all agree that the traction control part of the system is way to sensitive. But if you have driven a car with DSC and had it engage you were either losing traction or in an under-/over-steering situation. This is what DSC does. HELPS you maintain control by applying the brakes on a single wheel. It DOES NOT cut power if you are in a slide.

 

In a 4 wheel hydroplane ALL the wheel sneed to be slowed this is one those situtions the driver should be able to modulate throttle and use smooth braking and easily maintain car control without any computers haivng to kick in, but this is also a situation where a driver not paying attention yapping on their cell phone while reading the newspaper and eating a helly dount (I've seen it done) would likely panic slam on the brakes and the ASC+T or DSC Sytem in addition to the ABS would prevent the car from becomeing compeletely out of control and give the driver a chance to put their hands on the wheel. Remember computers can make cars invulnerable to the laws of physics (Unless Matt has a sectret he's keeping from us). This is also a situation where other factors such as mainting properly inflated tires (I get mad if I'm 2 psi off when I check them) alignment tread depth all come into play

 

No where do I see anything ruling out discussion on the ASC system esp. since it is included in the DCS system.
And as was previously mentioned DSC will cut the power because it includes ASC+T!!!!!

 

only while accelerating ! Geez.......read my post. DSC adds the benefit of individual wheel braking to the traction control. This is what helps when in a slide and out of control. Traction control will not help you in this situation.

 

Well you missed something then cause I'll quote you from page 72 of the manual

"ASC prevents slip at the drive wheels while starting off and accelerating the vehicle. ASC also recognizes unstable vehicle conditions, such as fishtailing or nose-diving. In these cases, and subject to physical limits, ASC help to keep the vehicle on a steady course by reducing engine speed and by applying brakes at individual wheels.This system optimizes driving stability and traction espescally when just starting off, when accelerating or when cornering."

And even MINI acknowledges it wont help you defy the laws of physics.

Both systems fit what the study covered and I find the "less intrusive" ASC system to still be over bearing.

 

Not in anyway to be disrepectful, but it is this assertion that is clearly where we differ. As has been pointed out even by some who strongly believe in DSC, at the track, it gets turned off. This certainly suggests, that it intrudes prior to the point when necessary, particularly when in the hands of someone who has good car control skills. Some of us actually do have some skill beleive it or not. DSC will intrude when it SUSPECTS the car is out of control, oft times its correct, but do a couple of days at rally school with your DSC on and I suspect you'd get an idea where some of us are coming from on this issue.

A friend of mine who just picked up one of the last Ford GTs came by the other day and took me out for a ride. This recall, is a midengined low polar moment beast with 550hp and no traction control management other than one's right foot. It was absolutely clear, even from the passenger's seat that where one foolish enough to plant, as opposed to squeeze, the throttle the car would spin like a top. My friend, one of the winningest drivers in PCA club racing history, is perfectly capable of controlling such a car. Others, notably the ones who totalled them within hours of purchase (and there have been several) clearly might have benefited from a DSC system. So why wasn't it offered? Because Ford, much to their credit, recognized that the GT is aimed squarely at enthusiasts and that driver aids interfere with ones, dare I say it, spiritual connection with the machinery.

The MINI, while capable and equally an enthusiasts car, is nonetheless a mass market exercise which derives its ownership from all sorts of differing target groups. As such, MINI needs to be far more concerned with hamfisted abuse its product. DSC on the MINI, from the examples I've driven, is certainly aimed at the average driver, it errs on the side of caution and for many, its the perfect choice. Even for those who are unsure as to whether its worthwhile..., well if you have to ask, you should buy it. But for some, say the type of guy who bemoans the fact that the car can't truly be left foot braked thanks to the e-throttle being cut if the foot is more than lightly on the brake, these people neither need it, nor want it. Its simply in the way.

 

I have DSC mostly because it was in a package not that I need it.

Will it be off on a dry summer day? You bet your rear

Will it be on when its raining/snowing/freezing outside? you can bet your rear once again

 

What manual are you reffering to? My 04 says nothing like that. And from the current website it basically says that ASC is a traction control system. My manual does say ASC will brake the front wheels only, but not independently nor the rears as DSC will do. The cornering statement has to do with the traction control, not braking of individual wheels.

 

Page 72 of the 05 Manual I'll see if I can pull a screen shot off of the OL....

Here is the page from the manual with a copyright of 2004


Still talks about aplication of the brakes. My manual is copyrighted 2005 and is updated and reads just as I typed it 4 pages later in the new version.

 

I have a lot of experience with driving in bad conditions both on and off track. I am not disputing the effects of the traction control. I HATE THE TRACTION CONTROL, It is much to sensitive. But the only time I have ever had the DSC kick in while in motion was while I was "playing around" in a parking lot with 3 inches of new snow. The only time it was engaged was when I was way under- or over-steering. I could immediantly feel which wheel was being slowed down. It was a bit weird feeling, but it definitely stablized the car and allowed the turn to be completed. I have no experince with the ASC. Can only go by what my manual and the MINIUSA site says about it.

I turn off the DSC while Auto-x because of the traction control sensitivity. But leave it on the rest of the time. You will always go faster on a track as Dr. O pointed out, with DSC off. But I would argue it is mainly because of the traction control. I can modulate the throttle much better than the DSC system can. I would love to be able to turn off the traction control and leave the rest on.

 

From the 05 manual for ASC.....
[FONT=MiniThesis-Bold][SIZE=2]

The concept

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=MiniThesis-Regular][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=BMWExtra][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=BMWExtra][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=BMWExtra][SIZE=1][FONT=MiniThesis-Bold][SIZE=2]

The concept

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=MiniThesis-Regular][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=BMWExtra][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=BMWExtra][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=BMWExtra][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=BMWExtra][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]