Smells just as bad and keeps the JCW fans from getting mad at me crashing their DSC equipped cars into giant fans.

 

Yesterday going home a dog runs in front of me in a curve hit the brakes turned hard felt the DSC come on stayed in a straight line. Saved my ***.

 

And if you really are botherd by the DSC on take off, you CAN get it modified! For about the cost of some CAIs or whatnot. Seems to me that this is a case where you can have your cake and eat it too!

Matt

 

Good logical prudent thought process, does nothing for my random application of the brakes or the car deciding to go another direction than what I tell it to in corners where when I shut it off I might get a tad bit of understeer (b/c I'm still on a sotck rear bar) I don't know when I'll need it off and I can't think of anytime it would have helped me, I drive by responding to the car and giving it deliberate specific instructions, the last thing I need is a computer unaware of the surrounding road condtions (traffic, barriers, trees, corners, etc.) and unware of what skill the driver posess decding my calcualted inputs are overruled and the car should really be going a different direction. Also there are times that he ASC has negated the fact I have the LSD and as soon as I shut off the ASC the LSD can then function properly.

 

Matt

those are ALL valid points and I am SURE those studies talk about the "masses". So often, NAM discussion dont care about the masses. I would agree.

On the other hand, ESC systems have been around for years ... this is nothing new ... MINI has reinvented the wheel and if you read many other car forums, you will find that more experienced drivers leave ESCs off...

Why? because they can "feel" the car handling better than the computer. Sure, if it starts to skid, whatever, the ESC kicks in, but its pretty common for many ppl to just turn of the ESC as soon as they get in the car ... IF driving enthusiastically.

That is just a different POV ... the less experienced the driver ... and with the car ... the more ESC helps.

 

I think you hit the crux of the debate: knowing when you need to turn the system off. If the system wasn't so heavy-handed in cutting power, though, I wouldn't have to turn it off all the time. Would it kill my computer overlord to just reduce power instead of cutting it completely?

 

Reminds me of a movie.

Motor On: Human beings have dreams. Even dogs have dreams, but not you, you are just a machine. An imitation of life. Can a robot write a symphony? Can a robot turn a... canvas into a beautiful masterpiece?

DSC: Can *you*?

 

Exactly why I said in my first post I'd like to see the numbers with experianced drivers vs. the masses (or dawrins as I called them). I think experianced drivers are better off being able to sense the car and make the proper corrections.

GRM hand an excellent article that left rubber inmprints on the tire rack course for several months. They tested ABS traction control and stability control on a new 3 series, round the track the best results were with ABS on everything else off for times and driver control and confidence. One driver was experianced and new tot he track the other was well versed in the track layout as well as experianced.

 

I really liked one undocumente feature of the DSC. It's a very good coach. You can approach the same turn with the DSC on, and if you are smooth and fast, it won't intervene. I've gotten to the edge of 4 wheel drifts with it on.

Also, there is a lot of charecter put into each car's programming of the system. I have no clue why Mini/BMW did such drastic intervention, but they did. If they hadn't, pretty much every complaint about it would be gone.

Spirited driving? I'm sure that each driver has some level where they don't like its intervention, and that's OK. But I honestly don't think that many actually understand the risk equation that they play with when that switch is used to turn the feature off. I'm up on a lot of these things and I had no idea how much fatalities were reduced.

Maybe I won't change anyone's mind (inflexibility tends to be the trend in society today) but at least I hope that people will understand a bit more what they are giving away when the yellow light is on the dash....

Matt

 

Sorry Motor, I didn't read all the posts

Some ESC systems are adjustable, not on/off switches. For example, you can turn the ESC off in a GT3 and most do when tracking the car but its NEVER fully off. The system just lowers the sensor numbers but if it really senses your in trouble, it WILL kick in. If you have the adjustable suspension, you can adjust the setting to but the fact is, the computer IS quicker than a human.

 

No See that robot tried to kill me so now everytime I get behind the wheel it is shut off.

(I know I twisted it )

 

It's ok.

So what you're saying is we need a 5 position switch with snow, rain, race and Commit Sucide Training In which caseyes I'd probably always leave it on Race instead of CST, however they also make they're cars computers a little more reliable when the put the Ferrari Badge on them.

 

street driving doesn't have corner workers, or run out zones or the like. And the point of street driving isn't the lowest time, but getting there in one piece! So sure, fastest times were with some subset of electronic aids. But for street driving, we're talking risk minimization. Also, when on the street, you are making the risk decision for yourself, as well as all those around you.

I think ( but don't know) that if the stats were divided by driver skill, you would still see a benefit, but reduced over the studies of the population at large. The skilled driver will avoid problems in some of the situations. But not all that are encountered on the road can be mitigated by good driving, so I'd expect the system to help in that reduces set of circumstances.


Matt

 

I think that's an excellent point, to remember that while you may be an experienced driver, 95% of all other people on the road aren't. And you have to factor in their innability to maneuver properly when danger presents itself.

 

What I was hoping you'd be able to see witht he GRM example is that you have significantly (i.e. consistantly meaurable) better conrol over a car with the systems off. This means not only will a good driver be moe likely to avoid the situation but when such a situation does present itself a well trained driver is more likely to put the car in the proper place with the systems off.

If I can put the car where I want it, well in over 200k miles between 3 cars in less than 4 years I've had 0 accidents. And I am a firm believer that good driving is what mitigates cirumstances, and I make sure to drive at a level that I can save my @$$ and not be sideswiped rear ended of hit someone else. It's not a matter of minimization its a matter of emilination through prepartion and you only know what to prepare for through extremely care in maintenance, awrness of the cars feed back your surroundings and analyzing the potential what ifs. Driver awareness and skill are irreplaceable.

CST explination around the 3:21 mark here

 

Actually, your close. I can turn on or off the PSM.

 

Check out the video Ferrari lets real drivers shut it off

 

Motor On, have you had DSC or is your experience with ASC? Just want to be sure we are clear on the apples to apples comparisons since they are different.

 

But Ferrari drivers are used to FIREBALLS and can afford to change their Sunday toys when the WRECK THEM

 

As was mentioned earlier this is with the allegedly less intrusive and supposedly easier to live with ASC+T

 

Thats cause the celebls driving them as look at me cars didn't leave them in RACE

 

Well, for people reading the title of the thread and maybe not reading through it there are important differences in how it works, DSC is more advanced and can do more. And yes, like other things when you use it it is easier to live with and avoid losing traction/inciting it when you have control over the circumstances. You can almost see it as a training aid - if someone causes the DSC to come on a lot their skills could use some honing and/or they are pushing the limit too often on public roads (that or they are driving in crappy weather a lot ).

shankrabbit put it well, DSC is a great tool to control when you know you don't want it vs not have it on that one time you really need it.

 

But this is the track, a very, very predictible environment. Where the turns are the same every time, and the surface is repeatable and predictible and there are people to warn you if it isn't so you don't get into trouble. This is EXACTLY different on street driving, where others actions are out of your control, and because of their relative lower average skill level, are much less predictible. The surface isn't known in advance, and there are often puddles, oil, ice, snow, gravel and the like that aren't flagged at all.

So this is a case where I agree completely with the point that you're faster around a track with the Minis systems off, other cars and other programs have differing degree of intrusion and deactivation. I drive on tracks with it off.

But the track is not the street, and the lesson of that article may be more appropriate on a group drive in the hills where people in front warn people in the rear. Commute or most travel? Doesn't really apply then.

Matt

 

I am with Dr.Obnxs too, the DSC did help me to avoid accidents 2~3 times, the biggest one was when I was running pretty fast in a corner (one way, cover by wall, within a tunnel you know), all of sudden I found there is an ice on the road, then I see my DSC light was flashing and my car went straight, but the car which tried to follow me (a Toyota Echo) lost traction while he past though the ice, and ''bang''... His Echo crashed and lost both front and back end (spinned 3 times). in that situation since the road is so narrow, there is nothing much you can do in such narrow road, especially when the ice appeared all of sudden though a corner.

And I think street racing or let say spirit driving on street are very dangerous, you never know what will happen, you could be a very experience driver but not the others.

Track racing is another story though, for sure you will never want to have the DSC on, at that time, you can just turn it off by press on the DSC button, very easy.

 

Car control is improved with it off. Wheter on the track or the street I am the driver I am responsible, I want control of the vehicle I am in and I am going to put it where it needs to be to be safe.

I love hearing these stories where things just pop up. Little to nothing from ice to puddles to snow to drivers blowing stopsigns and red lights suprises me anymore. I observe and am just as aware of my surrounding son the street as I am at the track, if not even more so. Anyone who does less scares me.