Word to you, my brother!

 

So... this then is justification for any and or all vendors to refuse to prove that their products actually do what they say they do?

I did not start this thread to attack M7 or the AGS. It was to draw attention to the precedent being set by M7/NAM's actions.

The precedent is clear, and completely inappropriate.

It’s not the numbers I'm after. It's the principle of the matter… how it effects the forum.

.................................................. ..................................................

I don't believe M7 is exclusively in the crosshairs. I've witnessed other vendors under fire (Pilo/Webb to name two). Each time it was due to wording in their statements about products or findings.

Like them or not, the crew who scrutinize products & the written word do so with literal interpretation, logic and science. If NAM or members take issue with their style or attitude that's an entirely different matter, and there are means for dealing with it.

Does anyone here really believe that the precedent being set will see this type of questioning go away?

I say hold everyone accountable… The doubter/questioners - that they be professional & non-personal… AND the vendors - that they back up what they state or be forced to make retractions.

To leave things where they are only fuels misgivings about M7, NAM, and a few members. No one looks good.

 

Where is that Trippy guy these days anyway? You've got to admit he was interesting and entertaining as well as controversial.

 

Uh oh... you said the "T" word!

 

BTW,

To those that got things back on track over the last page & 1/2. Positive expression of various positions!

 

Exactly why he's not around anymore The voice of reason is often not to our liking

M

 

No it isn't and I never claimed it was. It is, however, justification for Vendors to cease having open discussions with us. Goodbye NAM the Forum where we could talk to the Vendors - hello NAM Vendor Announcement Central.

I will repeat - up until very recently (like, uh, the last three weeks), almost any p-e-r-f-o-r-m-a-n-c-e mod Vendor who tried to mix with the general population would get roughed up in some way or form whether they posted numbers or not.

Regardless of the AGS, we are seeing less and less performance Vendors bother to engage our little group in discussion, opting instead to make announcements - why do you think that is?

Believe it or not, I owned my car for over a year before I even heard of NAM. In that time I spent over $1500 on mods - in other words, I managed to find my way to the Vendors without the help of NAM - imagine that.

I understand why the dogs we've been kicking are beginning to refuse to continue eating out of our hands - do you?

 

You can't have it both ways... Either its OK or its not acceptable.

 

Nobody's having it both ways. You asked me a specific question. I answered that specific question - it's not OK to refuse to prove the efficacy of a product just because someone hurt your feelings in the past.

I then made a separate statement: The bitchy attitude on this Forum is justification to stop having open Forum Discussions with us.

See the difference?

 

I've been around since very early on. Mostly lurking at first. I can tell you that the climate for vendors hasn't always been as you choose to characterize it.

That's a "how often do you beat your wife?" question. Do you really expect someone to answer it directly?

I really don't share your perspectives in these matters.

 

Isn't the claim, of offering the "best" product, the accepted norm in advertising? It's called "puffery," and every manufacturer/business is considered priviliged to refer to their own product/service as "best" in the market, since that IS their opinion...

I'd hate to see "discussion" on this site truncated- I enjoy reading even though I rarely participate- (I know nothing at all about these perf. mods!). I remember being disturbed that another thread I was involved with was suddenly shut down, since the NAM Moderator thought it was getting "personal," I very much disagreed, it was just an honest and spirited debate, seemed most of the participants took effort to keep it in line. What's the solution... ?

 

When name calling is involved things have gotten personal. That's normally what sends something out. All too often folks will resort to personal insults or attacks, rather than logical dissection of an idea or statement.

 

I don't care whether it gets answered or not.:smile:

I respect your perspective regardless of whether we are in agreement.

 

Now we're getting somewhere.

 

Off Topic, but.......................

I miss Trippy and the OTP days too.

Regardless of the argument, none of us ever went to bed angry.............

 

Exactly ...No group hug though

 

I think this should be the end of it....

 

All of this would just go away if it weren't for human nature to make us like beating dead horses. I fear, no matter how cathartic this experience is, that the loose spin on products, along with long memories for any claim or reference, and we are cursed to a world of never ending pissing contests.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could all realize how our actions further a usefull goal or a petty agenda, and do things a little differently.

Oh well.....

 

Apparently, some people did or he'd still be around here.

 

I like cheese

 

Yeah, I miss OTP as well, like Skip said, nobody went to bed angry. We can agree to disagree in OTP, and we need to do that here. Both sides of the issue can take equal blame I think.

BOT
My solution is to not jump right onto the latest new mod in most cases, instead I wait till some get their hands on them and live with them for a while, and some independent numbers come up (though not necessarily on NAM, other sites like WMS for example). Then I have more info to base my decisions on. Furthermore, I stand a better chance to find someone testing on a car similarly equipped to mine. I'll know the efficacy of the mod as it applies to my own car.

If a vendor comes in making claims for a product that I feel might be a bit suspect, I will speak up and ask for their reasoning. I try never to beat a dead horse except in very rare cases, since that breeds animosity and urest on both sides, not to mention being a headache for the mods. If their explanation suits my questioning, I let them know that (and by proxy everyone else here).

I remember the 'old days' of vender/member interactions here in the MCO days. I believe that helped shape the current market of very desirable mod items early on for MINI. A climate of witch hunting that has arisen in recent months is keeping some of the 'pioneering' people from continuing in that vein, they choose instead to make announcements in the relative safety of VA nowadays.

We also are in a period where the current mod climate is maturing. Most of the current ideas are variations on other themes. True innovation is getting tougher. It aint gonna be like this for long, since the '07 models will be basically a completely new beast. Vendors will be back to square one with everything as far as perfomance mods are concerned. None of the items we currently are using will apply in their current form on the new MC/MCS. No pulleys. Entirely new electronics. A turbo to deal with. Our current crop of vendors will need to work with the new MINI owners to develop the good mods once again. And it aint gonna happen with people at odds with one another.

 

Just to clarify: it was a rhetorical question, and begs no answer -- the answer is self-evident.

Vladimir is right. Minimc is right. Andy is right (well, maybe less right, or maybe less frequently ). Peter is right. Dr Obnxs is right. DiD is right. We're all so busy defending our opinions, when that's all they are: opinions. Sheesh. And we all know what opinions are like, don't we? <- that's rhetorical

None of this discussion has been based on truth or fact or anything quantifiable in the universe: it's all been based on what one guy would like to see or what another guy doesn't like to read. It's like the worst version of snake-pit politics, and EVERY SINGLE PARTICIPANT is right, simply because every single participant is arguing his or her point of view.

What exactly is it we're trying to accomplish here? That's not entirely rhetorical. We've had discussions before on how vendors should announce products, and that seems to be the heart of what we're debating.

You might have noticed that the moderators haven't chimed in lately. I think the only way they're going to get back into it is if we start lobbing personal attacks. And isn't this supposed to be a discussion targeted at their practices?

 

I'd love to see some examples of what you guys are talking about. For as long as I can remember (through the present), vendors who posted in the forums have been receiving the same treatment. Those who post about parts or mods that pass the "sniff test" and know what they are talking about, do not get "roughed up" or "witch hunted". Those who post about parts or mods with outrageous claims, without any sort of logic or science behind their claims, get exactly what is coming to them ... skepticism.

Here's a few examples of new product introductions that seemed to be very successful, and whose claims were backed up by data:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=29748

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=27342

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=21783

(The last thread was mangled by moderators who merged it with another thread from their direct competitors ... but you get the point).

 

I started a tread titled ATTN: Moderator Staff

It was an open letter to all moderators asking them not to censor anyone addressing our products. In short I stated that we are professionals who can answer questions about our products. Good or bad we do not need moderators to censor questions about our products.

The thread was pulled minutes after posting and I received a statement that “feedback like this” should not be posted here.

Even as a paying vendor and advertiser, my comments were pulled……. I worry now what else never makes it to the boards?

Some day perhaps they will allow me to post my original message.