Would you mind answering my above question since I was polite enough to answer yours? Why do you believe that I am "on a crusade since day on to make us look bad"?

 

Show me the numbers...:smile:

 

There is not conspiracy here. I have never talked to Andy about this. This was just information freely available on this board. And we are not trying to shut you down. I have bought products from you and like what you have. This isn't about shutting you down or trying to put you out of business. But just as jlm said, anyone can make a claim about anything on the internet. The power on these forums is that there are enormous checks and balances amongst all members, by both questioning a vendor and by being able to comment on what they have.

This is also, not about only attacking Peter and M7 and no one else. Everyone has attacked other vendors. Read the thousands of posts on it. It just seems like M7 keeps making more and more outlandish claims, and most of us would like it stopped unless you have something to back it up. If you don't want to post numbers great. I have since stopped pushing them long time ago, when you decided not to post them. But you should expect some backlash, when you kept promising and promising over a number over 4 months and then the week you released the product decide not to. No other vendor keeps making these kind of claims.

 

what does andy have to gain with m7's demise anyways? if andy is indeed on a crusade to eliminate m7 from existance, he must have SOME reason to do it, not just because he has the time (and im sure he's got his own things to worry).... now... andy's gained zero dollars from selling his hai idea.... why would he have ANYTHING to gain but more anger to argue with you over numbers when you slam his idea, and every other intake on the market by saying 'we outflow them all'

im not a hater myself, LOVE the visual grills you guys make... (i have a lower grille from you guys, and soon order a splitter and the upper/middle grille too, would've wanted your cf hood if i got money!) seriously guys... this is a long argument no one likes...

 

Satisfaction:smile:

 

Coming next week... Does Andy really "just want the numbers"? Does Peter promise products and then not deliver? Are the mods taking sides? Is someone posting while drunk, or whacked out on speedballs?

 

What outlandish claims???

That we outflow all other intakes....come on, I think we already proved it with the flow chart, and look at the design, I know it's not your Grand mothers
intake but it is obvious that has more engineering and thought put in to it then all the other CAI combined on the market. As we do not Copy
anyones designs or ideas.


What else is outlandish... please tell

 

Peter,

I do totally agree that you intake has had more engineering than most any, if not all the other intakes on the market, and for what you get in the kit it is quite a good deal. But outflowing any other intake, without comparison numbers, I don't think you can make that claim. The numbers looked good that another customer put up, but I have no idea if intake X makes 2% more than your does. I have no idea? But I think the ownace is on you to post the numbers since you made the claim. I will give you kudos for thinking outside of the box. Most of your products are top notch (I won't say anything about the plxsmxbxxstxr), and of high quality. You do answer your phone and provide any help a customer may need. This is much better than can be said for most other vendors. If you just work on your marketing (don't promise too much too soon, keep other people from hyping prototypes that they have seen, and don't post claims with little to no backing), than I don't think you would have any problems at all.

 

I can't believe you still don't "get" it. Having your customer post a flow bench result from ONE PORTION of your complete intake, without testing the whole thing ... does not prove ANYTHING. I have trouble believing that you don't understand that. You didn't post flow data for your complete intake. You didn't post flow data for any competing intakes. Just looking at the design does not prove ANYTHING. Yet, you stated publicly that your intake outflows all others on the market. You haven't presented anything to back that up.

FWIW, I have nothing to gain from M7's demise and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I hope M7 is a successful company and continues to innovate, but I would hope that in the future, either they would either present data to back up their claims ... or they would not get mad and lash out at moderators, members, etc. when M7 is merely asked to back up the statements with data they claimed to have all along.

 

This problem is old. It has been going on for most of the time I have been reading these boards. Disagreement is inherent in human interaction and when a passionate topic (such as our Minis) is involved we become more passionate in our responses. Peter/M7 is not out to screw anyone IMHO. He got a bad start in the Mini community by being associated with TMMZ when that ugliness happened, followed closely by the PB debacle. Peter is in business to make a profit, as are all the other NAM vendors. If you look at M7's products they are cutting edge tech with a cutting edge tech price. That's great for the community. Creativity is never a bad thing when used to make Minis go faster, or stop better, or turn quicker, you get my point. The area of contention seems to be the dispute over proof of legitimacy. Folks, there is no answer to this quandary. Peter or Randy or Eric or Dan or (insert vendor here) could post plots, numbers, data, graphs, ect. and they don't mean anything. What it comes down to is trust. I have met Randy Webb. I have ate supper with Randy Webb. Randy Webb has worked on my car. I don't KNOW Randy but he seems to be a great guy because of his enthusiasm and the fact he has never lied to me. I trust him. I have met Eric with Helix. We have never "broke bread" together and he has never worked on my car but I have asked him specific questions and he has never lied to me. I trust him. Peter M7 and I have never met or spoke. I have followed many of the M7 performance threads because they are entertaining and quite informative. I trust Peter. Maybe I'm naive but I trust anyone until they prove they no longer deserve my trust. Peter lost some of my trust with the whole PB argument and then subsequent dropping of the PB from his stock of products. He has regained most of that trust back with his latest offerings to Mini world. IMHO Peter is right about the amount of pressure he is placed under compared to others. He does take more than his fair share of bashing, but Peter needs to remember if you are gonna be on the cutting edge those are some of the things you have to put up with. I would love to see this problem work itself out in an equitable manner. My father always told me "things are best when done in moderation". Perhaps we the NAM community need to moderate ourselves. We have all been here long enough to anticipate results of a thread topic. Lets just try to accept the shortcomings of our fellow posters. A golden rule I learned about forum posting is you can't see me. You have no idea what expression is on my face. You can't hear the tone in my voice. All you see is what I post. I may be making a subtle joke or play on words but if you don't get it you could be insulted. I could insult a person and start a flame fest where I meant to tell a joke to lighten a situation and then not know what I had done until I log back on the next day. Can you see what I'm trying to say?

I teach middle school. 8th grade to those who need the numbers.
These arguments are a lot like what I deal with everyday. People, sometimes we must agree to disagree and let it go at that. Thanks for reading.

Spell checked Never post when drinking scotch not with the English professors around here.

 

'Because I said so' is not proof. I don't believe the AGS is better than a simple HAI until I see test results. Real simple.

 

Another thing real quick. We on the East coast don't have the opportunity to see Peter and his innovations in person. If we could it might be a different story.

To the number folks. I teach science so I understand the scientific method. Numbers are great, data is wonderful, but nothing beats sitting in the seat and hitting the gas. That ole' butt dyno ain't very accurate but it knows what it likes.

I repeat (in a mantra chant) agree to disagree ohm agree to disagree

 

Here is a perfect example of how M7 should have handled the AGS introduction.
Warning: There are no personal attacks or conspiracies of bringing down a vendor in this thread!
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ht=intercooler

Simple. Explain what it is. Explain how you tested. Show the results. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

 

first of all,and this is my business decision,i honestly beleive that a vendor who uses NAM to sell their products or advertize they must be responsible to all the Nam members and if the members are demanding numbers on a product they should be release (if i had a product that produced 12 horsepower) ,why wouldn't i release the numbers to prove my claim unless the numbers didn't back up my claim ,you guys out there got me curious is thr M7 the best intake or is it hype, i think this question must be answered,we owe this the members of NAM ,if M7 won't release the numbers ,i think the members of NAM should buy the part and send it to most knowlogable guy on the planet Randy Webb and then we will be 100%

vendors must have a responsibility of what they post or say,if claims are being made there should be numbers to back it up,vendors make a good living from us,THEY MUST BE TRUTHFUL AND LOYAL TO THE MEMBERS OF NAM or should be BANNED

MINDAD

p.s.

 

Morales:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but about three months ago, another Vendor (please - no names) gave us a sneak peak at one of his upcoming offerings - he even posted (hold on to your hat) numbers! Unfortunately, they weren't in the correct FORMAT (or maybe they were posted in the wrong font) and boy the hilarity that ensued!

Alas, after 10 plus pages of hairpulling, crotch grabbing, yowling, scientific postulization, general tossing around of large impressive words and name calling, the Mods had to separate the ladies to their perspective corners.

The moral of the story: on this Board, numbers are NOT always enough to get you a free pass. The peanut gallery occasionally craves blood - get them in a poopy mood and watch out!

The mods have been watching these little freakshows for some time now and they have a pretty good idea when to step in. Just because one or two recent Vendor posts have been treated relatively gently does not mean that the natives won't revert back to werewolves at the next full moon.

If people don't like it, mosey on down to MINI2 and sample the "freedom" there.

 

So they should be banned, let's see now.....Vendor A tells everyone his intake
makes 12hp, but no one manages to dyno that number.......Banned

Vendor B say's my exhaust is guaranteed to make 15hp damn that's impressive don't you think. But the dyno numbers are way of time and time again........Banned

Vendor C is telling bla bla bla you get the idea......Banned

This place is here because all the vendors pay big money, so you can
enjoy that freedom to write such remarks..

As a vendor I'm here to make money pure and simple, yes I do love MINI's
and I do enjoy talking to other owners all day long. With your plan of Banning as soon as it doesn't meet your strict standards, this place will be Empty.

 

I seem to recall Andy asking for numbers on 99% of the products advertised/offered by ALL the vendors, not just M7. I'll go back to my original post from the infamous AGS thread....

You're getting as much bashing(probably more) by not posting your numbers than you would have gotten by posting them in the first place.

Post the numbers, "This is how I tested it, these are my numbers, call if you have any further questions."


I agree that if the vendors post in the discussion forum about their product, then it's up for discussion. If they post in the vendors section, they don't have to worry about answering questions in the discussion forum....even if it's brought up by a member there.

 

You should also note a difference in the results: the Webb intercooler introduction thread garnered 19 replys over the course of 2 days, then nothing else. The AGS introduction has had countless (well, they could be counted, but I'm not going to do it) posts over 8 months and is still going strong today.

 

I agree with Peter. I don't think it is appropriate to ban a vendor (unless they violate the the forum rules) just as I don't think it is appropriate to ban a user (unless they violate the the forum rules). What is NOT appropriate is for the moderators to move/edit/delete discussion that is 100% on-topic and within the forum rules. Just because a vendor does not want to SEE posts asking him to back up his claims, doesn't mean those posts are invalid and inappropriate.

 

There are more differences as well, and no one else is getting this. The difference in this case between Vendor A, B, C....Z and M7 is that none of these vendors ever said their product is best performing product on the market, and promised numbers, and numbers, and numbers, and then either refused to give any or never said they are wrong. Many of the other vendors have come on this board with similiar approaches as M7, and every single one of them got negative posts. Every single one of them have also changed their mode of posting and information sharing, after these negative posts. Most of them scaled back their initial announcements, and/or they have developed better numbers. But again all of them have altered how they have done things to better accommodate this board. M7 has not and actually has become more brazen in how they post, trumping up even more each new product and providing less numbers or no numbers at all. I don't think this is an attack on everything M7 does. Not every product has been bashed, and if you look there are even positive comments from Andy and others toward M7. I still think M7 makes some great products. It is just that they continually go overboard on some of their stuff, and most actively posting members on this community don't like it. Again, from the beginning these arguments have gone on with almost every major vendor out there. We have attacked some vendors on their 245bhp kits. The difference most of the time is that the vendor barely responds or doesn't respond, therefore the arguments are dropped. But there are plenty of bashes with Webbmotorsports and the such as well back in the earlier days. Some even resulted in members being banned and many threads locked. So this isn't just an M7 phenomonen. It is just that recently most of the other vendors are submitting somewhat better information.

But again, to bring it back more on topic. I still think the Moderators should develop guidelines. I think a set of (still loose) guidelines should be implemented. It is the only way to fix this problem.

 

It's all in the vendor's grace - or lack thereof - when handling questions, whether they be (tongue-in-cheek) attacks or sincere quests for knowledge.

Hint 1: when you, as a vendor, say you're going to release numbers that pertain to a product (i.e. not just a single component of a multi-piece product) and don't follow through, and then find yourself combative with members you KNOW are waiting to hold you to your word, you're going to lose clout.

Hint 2: when you, as a vendor, cannot rise above petty comments, you're going to lose clout.

There really is something to be said for brushing aside the nastiness.

There are outspoken individuals on both sides - Andy, jlm, and the rest of the "peanut gallery" (come on, appreciate them for trying to keep vendors and other members honest); JCampos, sfjames2, et al. For every member of the "police squad," there's a blind subscriber. Please, if we're going to insult people like Andy with words like "crusader," don't use words like "early adopter" for his counterpart on M7's side. If you're gonna hate, hate equally.

Marty

 

:smile::smile:

 

Kudos to you, sir, for bringing this back on track. This discussion was started as a Q/A between readers and moderators, not as a celebrity smack-down between Peter and The-World-At-Large.

Peter - Let it go. The only real harm that's coming from this argument is coming from your willingness to involve yourself directly with this dispute. You're feeding the fire. I like your products, and respect your decision to do business however you choose, but getting sucked into a public fight doesn't look good.

rafthos - Invest in a spell-checker

Someone had suggested that Peter send his AGS to Randy Webb. From my discussions with Randy and others, I believe he and Peter work together regularly, so I have a feeling Randy has probably tried the AGS. Perhaps we should ask. However, that's a question for the AGS thread - no this one.

I honestly don't believe the moderators work as hired thugs for the vendors, but the vendors are the revenue stream that keeps this site up. To an extent, they owe it to both the vendors AND the MINI community to cater to the whims of those vendors. They must, however, tread a fine line and avoid the impression of bias.

I, for one, do not envy them, and wouldn't dream of wanting that job. I do, however, think it's nice that they take some of the tripe off the board. Trying to get real information about a part is difficult, as only the first 10 or so posts on any discussion seem to be on-topic. Just look at this one.

I'm genuinely amazed this topic hasn't been shut down.

 

I disagree with the notion that it is all in the Vendor's grace (or lack thereof).

I've seen plenty of Vendors take lumps and insults with gentle good humor, only to be dog piled on for pages and pages at a time.

This recent phenomena of giving big love to Vendors who show their numbers is just that - recent. I suspect that it has more to do with making a point with regards to the AGS issue than anything else.

I remember a time on this Forum when Performance Vendors used to come here and chat us up pretty regularly. It's dwindled to the point where only one really makes it a point to come here and mix it up with the natives. The others tend to make their announcements and fade quietly back into the woodwork. Keep it up and this Forum will be comprised solely of "What Car Fragrance Do You Prefer at the Local Car Wash?" threads.

Many of us aren't asking for anyone to be our consumer advocate on this Board. While I really don't mind that some people have decided to take up that mantle, don't ask me to appreciate their efforts. I appreciate their efforts only on the level of entertainment these little spats provide me.

 

Ain't that a beautiful thing? We're all entitled to our opinions, and no one is forcing us to spend our money to modify our cars. I've had the good fortune to meet many different vendors for MINI products, and vendors of products for other cars (BMW, Volvo), and I can tell you that ANYONE can have innovative ideas. It's in the execution of that idea, both materials and advertising, that good vendors build for themselves sound reputations.

Anyway, I think most of us have bigger fish to fry than getting bent around this silliness on NAM...