Dissenting opinion in Performance Mods Forum
 

I was about to post this to the "Slamming the M7 AGS & Heatshield" thread, but it appears to be blocked, and or on its way out. So... new thread.

The most concerning issue (as I see it) is opportunity to ask questions and or present dissenting opinion in any thread.

…If a Vendor, Mnfr. or Retailer ABC wants to post about an upcoming product or idea outside of Vendor Announcements that thread should be open to all, for whatever questions or criticisms or endorsements might seem appropriate. Obviously the forum guidelines about getting personal would apply.

The "Slamming the M7 AGS & Heatshield" thread & the editing of the AGS thread are IMO moderation crossed over the line to interference and censorship & in some ways endorsement of other ill behaviors witnessed on NAM.

Although right now censorship of this variety may seem like an appealing solution to frustrated moderators, restriction of logical questions/dissenting opinions from being expressed are not the answers. Tolerance is necessary. No matter how many times one party may ask the same question or the other refuses to answer it.

IMO Multiple perspectives (no matter how opposing) must be allowed to exist within any thread for NAM's forums to remain relevant.

Trying to be positive and pro-active…
 

Is there a way to "link" relevant threads together?

Although I'm unfamiliar with the capabilities of this website software (or any other for that matter) it has occurred to me that threads such as the M7 AGS thread would benefit from "branches" off of the main. ...All would be linked, but as the discussion evolved new branches could form from the main & exist in parallel. This would allow discourse regarding the same subject.

To be a true community and feel involved I want to know that when I or another member expresses an opinion relating to a product or modification that the post remains linked to the subject – unless COMPLETELY unrelated. This isn’t the case right now.

Dissenting opinions, discussions, questions etc... are all good and are all encouraged.

However the problem that has created the current ugly atmosphere in the Performance Mods forums is that groups have risen up and acted in a manner that appears that they have launched a crusade against various vendors. It's not a static or organized group by any means, nor are the issues directed at any one vendor.

What's more troubling is that many of these "detractors" aren't customer's of the vendors they are targeting, and it appears many of these detractors don't have any intention of becoming a customer of those vendors.

These detractors have led numerous threads about various products very off topic forcing the threads to be closed or deleted. That's not fair to the vendors or to the majority of the NAM community, yet every time the Moderators have been backed into a corner and forced to act.

One of the reasons for the creation of these forums was to allow vendors the opportunity to converse with customers and potential customers about their products. However the actions of these vocal detractors will (if they haven't already) stifle any possible discussions with vendors, and could quite possibly chase vendors away from NAM and even more troubling, the MINI community in general.

Now yes the vendors do have some responsibility to you the consumer and member of NAM. They need to act professionally, and treat you with respect. They should always respond to your questions to the best of their ability providing all of the information that they are comfortable providing about their product. But with that in mind the vendor shouldn't make quantifiable claims about their product that they can't back up with something other than anecdotal evidence.

But along the same line you the consumer and member of NAM also have a responsiblity to the vendors here that you are communicating with. Just as you are entilted to respect, so are they. If a vendor makes specific quantifiable claims about their product, hey you can even ask about their test regime. However, you should also understand and respect the fact that the vendor has the right to withold information about their product and/or their testing regimes. It is not appropriate for a single member, or the community in general to badger a vendor for information they refuse to disclose.

If a vendor doesn't make quantifiable claims about their product, that's their right too, and you as the member of NAM and the general public shouldn't force them too if they don't wish to.

The efforts of those detractors frustrate NAM vendors current and potential customers, as well as the vendors themselves.

However, it also doesn't help that some vendors haven't exactly helped their case by making claims about products that they couldn't back up or have acted in an unprofessional manner at times here on the forums. That's a problem that Moderation Team has run into in other areas of the forums as well, not just here in the Perfomance Mods section.

I can certainly agree with you about the atmosphere being ugly.

I don't see any crusade against vendors per se. I have seen a crusade against anyone posting absolute claims without substantiating those claims.

Yes, on occasion the degree to which the claim is asked to be validated has gotten out of controll. But this often happens due to poorly thought out and or flippant responses to technically knowledgable members.

All members are not held to the same level of scrutiny, nor should they be. I share the perspective that vendors as a whole may justifyably be held to a higher standard than "Joe member" when making claims. ...Providing that Joe member ins't selling anything relating to his claim(s) or acting as a shill for someone who is. ...Hard to prove, but neccessary to nip in the bud.
If ANY vendor makes absolute claims, but does not wish to substantiate said claims that vendor shouldn't be surprised or upset if thier creditbility is questioned. It is reasonable to request quantifyable information regarding a performance related product. This is the very reason so many consumer protection agencies exist... To protect consumers from unproven and or false claims. The big 3 have been caught making false claims... why should a vendor here be any less accoutable when making absolute claims?

If a given vendor or vendors repeatedly make claims, but avoid substantiating said claims it's unlikely that those seeking quantifyalbe proof will become customers of the vendor or vendors. This seems quite straight forward and reasonable. ...Imagine the position Pfizer would be in had it's claims re: Viagra not held up to scrutiny... How many people would be lining up to buy the little blue pill? No... we're not talking drugs here, but the same logic applies.

Numerous members have said that they do not care re: substantiating performance claims. ...Yet many of these same members have sought out products with "substantiated" performance claims. Furthermore the members being refered to as "detractors" have logged and or shared personally attained data regarding parts and or testing. In several cases this testing and data helped in substantiating claims - and HELPED sell product for vendors.
Surely you are aware that the "ugly" climate in performance mods did not occur overnight. The relationship between the "detractors" and several vendors/members has a long history. ...And quite frankly, had a few vendors/members started out with less bravado, fewer flippant answers, and frequent abuse of forums (shills extolling the virtues of product-X in the form of a new thread) the climate wouldn't be as hostile & cynical as it now is. ...But, history is history... too many toes stepped on. YOU ARE HERE:wink:
I think it's pretty clear that vendorsand the MINI community in general are important to this site's existence.

The site owner & moderators set the tone for what was acceptable on NAM... And early on it got a reputation as a great place for technical info., but, not so freindly. There were a few folks who needed to be informed what was an acceptable way to post - that goes for both the "detractors" and vendors.

I think the owner tried his best to keept the site real & vibrant without sanitizing it. For which I'll add he deserves much praise. Hindsight being 20-20... there were too many 'boarderline' personal attacks and insults which got by. The combatants assumed that because it wasn't squelched that it would continue to be tollerated. This set the tone, and spawned the hostility now being dealt with.

All said, it now appears that much of the unpleasantness is kept in check these days.:thumbsup:
Courtesy & common respect for everyone on NAM is part of being in the community. Those who can't play nice & keep it non-personal should shove off.

When we are discussing technical information it is only reasonable & logical to expect technical answers. No, not everyone (even some vendors) are knowledgeable enough or willing to answer extremely technical questions... especially those which might reveal privy or at least not widely known information.

However vendors shouldn't be surprised or cry foul when they are approached for supporting documentaion. Anecdotal evidence is for us privateers/amatures to spout off about :thumbsup: More is expected from the experts. ...And if they're not expert enough to answer our questions it begs the question why are we trusting them with our 20+K MINIs?:sly:

This gets us back to "absolute claims" and what a problem they are.:roll: Don't quote them and no one can hold you accountable. Quote absolutes & get ready to feild the questions/provide quantifyable data. Seems like a simple enough rule to live by.

If you are a vendor selling a finished product you should either say with clarity what it will do, or just explain the end goal of the product... whether or not it acheives the goal is another thing entirely.:wink:
If we're talking about the appearance of malice there's plenty to go around on both sides of this issue. I've witnessed both vedors and "detractors" appearing to take pleasure from frustrating one aonother.

Agreed on the last statement. It sure doesn't help. Hopefully the next new product launch for ANY vendor avoids these pitfalls.

Thanks for adressing the issue & for your continued work moderating these forums.:thumbsup:

Thank you for your comments and analysis of the current communication problem(s). You mention responsibility on the part of both vendors and forum members. May I suggest that the moderators of the forum make it very clear to vendors about the appropriate place for their posts. The Vendors Announcement section has a very specific function, as do the various Discussion sections.

If a vendor places a post in a Discussion section, then there should be discussion, as long as it is kept within the bounds of propriety. If a vendor does not want open discussion, then that vendor should keep comments in the Vendors Announcement section. It seems to me that if a vendor poses a question to the membership, and only wants feedback that will help promote or market the product, then that should be in the Vendors Announcement section. Since members cannot post to that section, they could always PM the vendor with suggestions. Should the vendor want to update the post or summarize the feedback, then that also could be done in the Vendors Announcement section. IMO, a vendor should not dictate the content of responses in an open Discussion section. If such action is allowed to continue, that would be unfair to other vendors as well as the membership of the forum.

I'm sure that the moderators have a difficult job, and at times it may seem they are walking a fine line. Your emphasis on the responsibilities of both vendors and members is appreciated, and I do hope this forum will continue in the spirit of presentation and discussion of products and issues related to the cars that "brought" us to this forum :smile:

:thumbsup:

:wink: :smile:

I think blame must solidly be placed on both sides of the aisle here. Vendor Announcements was created to give vendors a place to show new/upcoming items without starting and subsequently having to deal with an open discussion (though other vendors with posting rights in VA will sometimes make commentary or ask questions). A vendor that posts in an open forum such as Perf Mods is essentially swimming in open waters, and if anything is said that can be construed as being blood in the water you can rest assured the sharks will come in for a feast.

I'm smart enough to know that if a manufacturer states that his intake flows 25% better than stock it does not mean that my car will make 25% more power. Likewise, if it's stated that said intake makes 8hp over stock I would want to know what else might have been done to the car prior. Face it, if I am gonna tear the front end offa my car to install an AGS, I am not going to leave everything else stock. Other might, simply because they might only be going for the sound of that intake. I, on the other hand, am most interested in how a particular mod behaves as part of a 'package' of mods. For some vendors to come up with such numbers is very rare, since not everyone's idea of a 'system' of mods is always the same thing.

Randy Webb made it a good policy early on of taking a stock car and adding various intakes or exhausts and publishing the gains. One can deduce from the various numbers how those parts might behave together or with other power adders. The individual numbers might not look like much, but therein lies the rub. If a vendor is going to sell an intake, exhaust or some such, will he boast that his piece made a whopping 5hp over stock on a stock car (and you end up paying a large amount of coin for that 5hp), or will he take the biggest numbers he found during testing (undoubtedly on a car with a rash of other mods) and state those instead? Better yet, will they be translated into obscure 'percentage' gains?

I've come up with a good reason why politics and religion should never be mixed. All one has to do is peek into some of the Perf Mod threads to see the results of that mixture. :eek: :roll:

A rational voice in the wilderness!

Let's get him, boys!

/gary mc

Greatbear,
Thanks for your post.

Each of us must also be wary of any claims made and decide if that product will afford perceived gains whether real or not given the price we pay. We drive cars in the real world and many times have to settle for tests run under simulated situations. We each also have different skill levels and our ability to use various upgrades can vary immensely.

http://www.vibrantsea.net/images/ham...ds3_cocos2.jpg
Swimming with sharks can be risky business. :razz: :grin:

actually, I have been diving with hundreds of hammerheads, just like the photo, but it was nearer land than open water...Galapagos. A fantastic experience.

The moderators totally did the right thing. If you allow people to discuss radical concepts things "heat" and "shielding" in a thread about a "Heatshield", who knows what sorts of crazy, off-topic things we'll be discussing next? Maybe we should be required to provide a copy of our receipt for each new product before we are allowed to post in a thread about that new product? Wait ... how would that work if the product doesn't exist yet? Maybe a vendor could start a thread about a new product in this forum and the moderators could lock it and sticky it. Once people have bought the product (and provided proof of that purchase of course), the thread can be selectively unlocked (only for those with receipts) so they can ask questions about the product's function and performance. That way we can all decide if the money we already spent was worth it. :thumbsup:

Some of you guys really seem intent on turning the performance mods forum into the Jerry Springer Show of NAM. :confused: Isn't it possible to state your "dissenting opinion" rationally and respectfully, without making it your obvious mission to kill half the threads in the forum before they go anywhere? Believe it or not, there are plenty of us here that, without your assistance, can read vendor's claims with a healthy dose of skepticism, and proceed from there. It would be great if we had that opportunity more often, without having to sift through all of the redundant tantrums.

Some people enjoy being lemmings. It's too bad this forum is so obviously biased and bought off.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OT:P was like Wall Street Week by comparison. Seriously. :sly: :roll: :sad:

I am the great evil man known as Deep Pockets, and I secretly fund the moderation team with money given to me by the Evil Vendors. The NAM Secret Police will be coming to see you soon, Kaeleria.

How did you stumble onto our great conspiracy? If it hadn't been for you darned kids, I'd have gotten away with it! Curses!

In my opinion the supposed "bashing" by NAM members on vendors products is absolutely no different than vendors selling products and making claims, but not providing any information to back up the claims. Just as we expect members on this board to active civil and not to personally attack people, we should also enforce some form of rules on vendors if they are going to post in general forums. They should not make detailed claims, and then refuse to comment on them. I hate using M7 as an example, but if a vendor claims that their product flows more because of smoother path, but that they do not have any numbers, that too me is much more acceptable than a vendor claiming that their product outflows everything else on the market, and has great power numbers, but they can't tell you what they have tested, how they have tested and will not provide any dyno's for their product. I think that is just as reckless, rude, and not the best practice of business, just as tearing into vendors isn't the best either.

I don't think that this is an attack on one vendor, it is just that a handful of vendors continue to go down destructive paths, and other vendors have no problems.

One NAM member holds the key to ending the recent rash of thread problems. Unfortunately, he chooses to keep the solution to himself and prefers to complain loudly about the state of affairs. He even sets thread rules and issues ultimatums. Thus far, it appears that the NAM management/moderation team agrees with him.

It would seem that the general NAM population is to have no voice of dissention.

A Need for clarity in WHAT information vendors can post and WHERE it can be posted
 

Thanks for sharing the excellent thoughts!

...And for those less enthusiastic... Give this a chance. I've been as frustrated as you. Expressing your point of view through cynicism & sarcasm may feel good but it works against your otherwise thoughtful perspectives.

IMO Greatbear brings the issue more clearly into focus:
Not all members of NAM are as technically competent, knowledgeable or confident in their knowledge as Greatbear. Less knowledgeable members often rely upon the more knowledgeable private members, and occasionally vendors for scrutiny, advice, information and or opinion. ...It's this community that makes the site valuable to the members.

The above notwithstanding... Unproven claims going unchallenged gives the perception of endorsement of said claims by the community. How does the community at large find value in or benefit from this perception? ...Especially the less knowledgeable?

The open forums are for the exchange of useful and possibly technical information, which might not be readily available elsewhere... Not a place for Vendors to promote & spread marketing hyperbole, nor shills to parrot it.
Allowing vendors to author loosely (or not so) promotional threads about their own products in non-marketing forums completely blurs the line between private members exchanging information & vendors advertising. IMO promotional threads clearly fall into the Vendor Announcements area.

I do not want to see vendors shut out of discussion or feeling that they are not free to participate. I believe they have interesting perspectives to share in all of the various discussions. I would like to see vendors remain involved in open discussion. ...Just so long as the involvement is not blatant marketing. ...Posting to answer technical questions, problem solving, or providing experience, opinion or advice (like "How to" threads) are ways that vendors can add value to the community & remain involved.

:eek: who are you referring to?

We have never said you can't ask questions of vendors or challenge them on their claims.

The issue that came up over the weekend was much more specific than that. M7 has been asked for numbers repeatedly by members. They have said repeatedly they have made a specific decision to not provide that information. That leaves us at an impasse. Continuing to challenge them for numbers and badgering them because at some point in history they "promised" to provide numbers is counter-productive when we all know they aren't going to provide the numbers. The fact is, the vendor has been questioned (repeatedly), any claims the vendor made have been (repeatedly) challenged, and the response is still going to be the same. Therefore, it's time to accept that M7 won't be supply numbers. Continuing to badger them isn't going to change that. Accept it and move on, because that is the state of the situation and continueing to flog that isn't going to do anything at this point other than cause the thread to devolve.

Again, we haven't said you can't ask questions of vendors. However, in this case, the question has been asked, and an answer (which admittedly doesn't sit well with some members) has been provided.

Do you have this policy for all vendors? If I start selling a product and claim that it makes 100 hp, yet I refuse to provide any data to back that up ... can I get moderators to edit or delete any posts asking for that data?

Regarding the just have them post it in Vendor Announcements if the vendor doesn't want real discussion comments:

How does that do anything other than delay a thread from popping up in Performance Mods and having the topic discussed anyway? Again, not that there is anything wrong with discussion. Once the thread is in Performance Mods, the vendor would obviously feel compeled to post to the thread, so how are we not right back where we started?

(I'm asking the question, not to rule out an option, but if there is something I'm missing about that approach I'd like it pointed out).

That doesn't really describe the current situation though does it. You make it sound like a vendor is running through performance mods screaming "we make 30 hp from an intake" at every opportunity they have and you're just trying to get them to show the plots. Since they took the position of not providing data, where have they claimed to make a specific amount of power?

Here's what we are upset about, REAL SIMPLE. Threads in a publicly open section should be OPEN FOR DISCUSSION regardless of topic so long as it fits your rules. If a vendor opts to start or post in a public thread it's FAIR GAME. Who cares if they repeatedly say they won't put up numbers? What are you their mommy? Let them keep saying no, let people keep asking. If they don't want to discuss they shouldn't have posted PERIOD. STOP locking or deleting thread and posts about this issue. There is NO RULE that says you can't ask for numbers after a vendor says no. It doesn't do you or the forum ANY harm to have muliple posts in a thread asking for nubers, and having them say no. When we get sick of asking, it'll stop. It's not breaking any rules or causing any harm. That being said - there is certainly speculation as to WHY you have been censoring such posts lately. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out something else is going on, considering this is such a small issue that you are making HUGE.