GIACs finally available and not one post? This may be the ultimate irony. See Vendor Announcements for details.

--Jeff

 

I was just thinking the same thing. Maybe its the cold reality of all that anticipation, then realizing that it only gets you 3 - 9 hp for $325. The MTH solution for <$200 is looking much better.

 

After all this time, talk and anticipation of the GIAC, (see multiple posts under search), a measly 3-9 hp? What about torque #s?

Is this what we all have been so impatiently waiting for?

 

3-9 is the power across the entire power band. So 9hp is the peak. Remember also that Helix has what is considered a very conservative dyno. Throttle bodies that show 6hp on other dynos show 1-2hp on his. Air intakes that show 10hp on other dynos show 3hp on his. Exhausts that show 10-15hp on another dyno show 4-5HP on his. A 9hp gain on his dyno is a pretty nice increase. Also I heard right from the MINI owner who volunteered his MINI for the final testing and tweaking. They threw out the highest numbers. That's right. Threw 'em out. That's what Eric means by saying "consistent, repeatable, verifiable HP". They didn't take the highest GIAC run and graph it with the lowest stock run. Nor did they take the highest GIAC run and compare it to the average stock run. So you could see considerably more but you won't necessarily see it every time - that's why they threw it out. But the highest run was in the teens - a large percentage higher than 9HP. We've all seen all of the other ECUs out there claim 10-15hp only to get dynoed by individuals and get 5hp or 7hp or in some cases, 2hp. And there is at least one out there (I think the original EVOtech) that claimed a whole lot yet independent tests have been all over the place with one MINI owner posting a graph showing a gain of 14hp and others found little to no gain with the same software! So when GIAC says 9hp, they mean it..."consistent, repeatable, verifiable".

I also know that they tested the GIAC versus other software that the MINI guy already had. The other software showed 168hp at the wheels. After the switch to GIAC, the MINI was showing 189hp at the wheels. Sounds exciting to me.

As for why I'm not jumping up and down yet, I have a 19% pulley and that is not for sale yet as they are exploring ways to fully take advantage of the extra boost that the 19% can provide. But I am excited!

And you'll be able to upload this from your computer yourself - just like powerchips and some of the others. Yet somehow, even with all of the testing and the long time in development, it's half the price of all the other software ECUs out there yet we were told that so much time and money goes into development that they can't lower the price any more. Well I bet the prices drop now.

 

can anyone report reliable dyno results from any of the chips out there?

For example, depending on what you read on Webb's site, you get up to 17hp from the Powerchip, but no clear explanation of flywheel corrected or not (If fwheel corrected, you have to deflate it 15% to get 14whp) The Unichip results are equally murky, where the dyno is reading artificially high numbers (good only for comparisons made on that exact dyno) and is apparently fwheel corrected as well.

 

That thought crossed my mind. I'm hoping that Eric'll give some insight into how those numbers compare to others that they've tested on the same dyno.

It's inexpensive enough to chance that it's worth it at that cost, though I'd wait for the USB version--with the chance at every dealer visit that you have to reflash this is almost a must-have.

--Jeff

 

Greatgo,

Don't get me wrong. I am excited about the software and the price. I think with all the anticipation of the software release, that the announcement was pretty weak. No graphs, no mention of torque, no other mention of features (i.e. what was the revlimiter raised to....). The statement of 3-9hp was not clear. You gave one definition that it was across the range, but I doubt that is the case across the entire rev range. Then you give a statement that when the tested it, it showed 21hp improvement over a Mini with an ECU upgrade already. This has got to be an exagerated claim. No way is this making 21hp over another ECU upgrade (even the Shark). I would really like to see the graphs.

I think the reason the feedback is subdued is that it has taken two years to deliver, which is obviously due to GIAC not placing this anywhere near a priority. Many people say it is because they have spent a long time tweaking it and that it was the quality, while others are saying it is because of a niche market, yet GIAC was able to release the chip upgrade in 2 months from the release to market of the VW R32, which has a much smaller market share (at a maximum 5,000 cars this year, with the possiblity of the car never coming back to the market). Many people have gone on and bought other chip upgrades, specifically ones like the Powerchip and the Unichip. It is great that you waited for this upgrade, but most people did not.

I will be interested in seeing more data released about the chip, and will reserve my excitement after more information.

 

I think sometimes it is easier to get VP Cheney to release the participants of his energy committee than it is to get graphs about chips. AmD has never released a graph, no matter how many people have bugged them. Shark has never released a graph. Randy has never released a reliable graph of the Powerchip, Evotech, or the Unichip. Most of the time the excuse was that he was wanting a scanner. But I agree we have heard vary crazy numbers, such as 17hp for the Powerchip (which no one ever came close to), now greatgo with 21hp for the GIAC. You would think that it would be so easy to just post a graph on the site. They must have ran them, or they couldn't have developed the chip. Just doesn't make sense. And the consumer is just left in the dark as to what they are buying. I don't spend $300 on a computer monitor without looking at all the numbers that the manufacturer publishes and the reviews that are given, but yet we are expected to pay up to $800 for a chip without any information on it. Basically all you get from the people who have them installed is, "it feels quicker", it "feels smoother", "I can now rev to 7200rpm". I don't know. It just seems that the chip market is extremely confusing and frusturating for a consumer.

 

I just think, and as some expected, there is no one chip option that is just clearly, hands-down, the best at delivering power gains. There were hopes and even expectations that GIAC would knock the door down in this area, especially with the torque figures. It's just not as resounding as some would have liked, and given the horrendous Dinan-like wait, the let-down is understandable...

Given that several chip options might deliver more or less the same performance, things like price and other features or variables will help distinguish one from another. What might be better for one, might not be deemed so by someone else...

I for one I'm not going to let a couple hundred bucks keep me from getting anything that I feel is the absolute best product for my MCS. If it meets X,Y and Z requirements like no other product, then to me, I don't see any competition to fill that need. If there are several that meet those requirements/needs, then I'll use "wants" or less critical criteria to differentiate them...

Knowing that a couple hundred bucks is a determining factor for many, and that GIAC numbers are up there, along with USB cable ease, I'm sure that it will be a popular choice.

While not all chips are the same, either are all MINIs. I think many of us have seen that on before and after dynos. A chip that is mass produced can make for power gains in all, but since it's not being tailored to one's car and unique mod set-up, maximum gains cannot be expected. I only say this because of many of us are hung-up on every hp and ft-lb. Having choices only based upon pulley size attempts to account for some of this, but not the whole picture...

And when turbos, SC replacements and other like major mods become a reality (and they will), for the person who wants that power, they would need to buy a new chip again, or hope for an updated map, and if so, ideally not wait a long time for it...

A chip that is flexible to grow with our performance evolution and aspirations, and that can be refined and controlled to milk-out every last drop of power is the ulitmate, at least for some of us.

 

I hope Helix is reading this. I have a few questions:

• Can this chip be further tuned at a GIAC facility, in much the same way as the Unichip. If it can, it would be a really great bonus feature.
• What is the time frame (best guess) for the USB cable? Will it have a proprietary ODBII plug, that plugs into my USB connection on my laptop? Can the plug/wire be purchased? or does it need to be rented?

As much as I complained in my upper posts, this is now (if the $350 price is correct), the cheapest solution out there. If it produces 5hp gains, it would be beneficial, especially if it really smoothes out the powerband. If it can be further tuned to my specific car at a shop, that is even a bigger bonus. I would still like to see the graphs, but this is looking more like my top pick. Especially if we can revert back to stock and back again.

 

Wow, if GIAC can be tuned - let us know!!!

 

I agree with what Tony B says. I like the price on the G.I.A.C, the USB Connectivity, and not to mention the race and valet programs. Once you think about it none of the chips out there have been consistent. I would definitely like to see a graph and also to see what kind of torque #s we will be seeing.

 

You will have to find out as well on how much the cable will be because I am sure it will not be free of charge. For now you will have shipping cost as well since the ECU needs to be shipped out until the cable option is released. It is one of the cheaper solutions but not the cheapest.
I would like to know if the flash is done thru a cable already or will the ECU be opened to solder in a chip with socket? The reason for me asking is will people that get the GIAC chip now be able to use the cable transfer after?
I also would like to know how the ECU adaption function will work when you switch from valet to 91 to Race gas all the time. I would like to know that as well for the UNICHIP that has a switch for an A and B map.

Alex

 

To me it doesn't make sense that GIAC requires the ECU to be shipped now for tuning, while they promise a user flash option via USB cable somewhere down the road. If their present solution is hardware based, meaning a chip is soldered, then their promise of the user flash option is nothing but a promise, as it will involve a totally different approach using software, a la MTH. If their current solution is already software based, then the USB cable should be ready NOW, considering the amount of time they have taken to come to market. How difficult can it be for them to get an OBDII/USB interface and cable ready? Do I sense a clever marketing scheme?

Clarification from GIAC would help eliminate a lot of questions and concerns.

DDTUNG

 

Ok, ok. It was actually the JCW ECU. Yet it wasn't a JCW MINI. It was an MCS with K&N intake, exhaust, 15% pulley and throttle body, I believe. He also was running (how I don't know) JCW software. Although he thought the JCW software was much smoother than stock, it actually took away power from the stock ECU. That's where the 21hp comes from.

 

Yes, I'm reading it, and I understand the fickle hellcat that is posting dyno numbers. Very dangerous indeed.

I will speak only for myself when dyno methodology is discussed: I learned to use a dyno from AWE Tuning, a former employer, and GIAC. Both companies have Mustang load dynos, and both have impeccable reputations for useful dyno information. In previous posts, I have explained our take on the usefulness of a dynomometer, specifically that it is a good testing tool, not a good advertising tool (more info in previous posts). Moreover, it's only a good testing tool if it is used correctly, which is VERY difficult for MINIs. I have to admit that on the first hundred or so runs that we did on MINIs, we weren't getting good, reliable, repeatable, scientific results. We just hadn't learned how to dyno these cars (so disregard the the stuff I so autoritatively stated about power in the early days of MCS tuning--sorry). After more than 500 runs on these cars, I feel that we have good methodology for getting reliable, repeatable results for these cars.

Dynos are also not the end-all, perfect way to measure power increases (or decreases, as the case may be). It is impossible, for example, to replicate the effects of wind on a car, with the hood closed on our budget. We could spend $15,000 on fans and still not be able to create the wind velocity and volume of a drag run.

That having been said, properly used dynos can be a very useful tool in measuring power and TQ changes--probably the best. If you want more information on how increasing the supercharger boost with the M45 plays out on the dyno, gimme a call and I'll lay it out for you.

With those caveats in mind, and understanding that we are in this for the long run, and want to have the reputation for honest propaganda, we offer the GIAC chip with the above mentioned power increases.

The plan as it stands now is to have several cars tested on several different dynos to create a database of info for 91 and 93 octane cars, and with different pulleys. We will post various dyno graphs of the final products. As we tune for specific modifications/fuels those files will be made available. We still need to iron out the details, but I suspect that those who have the GIAC USB cable, will be able to access different files for their cars. This would be instead of putting home tuning in the hands of the user, because of the risk of people getting greedy with fueling and timing, and causing problems that we have to iron out on an individual basis. GIAC will sell the cables to the user as part of the multiple file GIAC chip. The price is TBD, but it's not going to be crazy. Until then, I will soon have several cables that people can borrow to self-load the software. Over the next few days, we will develop a good system for cable distribution and upgradeability. For now, people will have to come to the shop, or send us their ECU.

Garrett prices his chips not only on the time spent in developing, but also on the power results. The relatively modest price reflects the fact that the stock chips are relatively good for pure power and torque numbers. If there were tons of power to be gained with a chip, rest assured, he would produce them with his chip, and the price would be higher.

So, apologies for the muted announcement, but it's still a work in progress, as good chips always are. We will be coming out with mucho information as we produce it. I also am going (try) to wangle Garrett into posting a bit about the process of tuning these cars, since he is very forthright about what chips can and can't do. If I can answer anything in the meantime, give me a call and/or I'll try to keep my eyes on this thread.

 

Ok I don't know the answer to this but based on the small amount of inside stuff I do know, my guess is this: You get to KEEP the special USB cable when you purchase the upgrade. So the reason why it is not yet ready is b/c they don't have a whole lot of these cables yet probably. It is NOT hardware based - it is loaded under the dash - I THINK. Don't take this to be fact though until we hear from Helix.

 

Erik,

I actually like the numbers. If I saw 10-15hp I would be more skeptical. This really falls into line with what else is seen out there. I would really like to see the dyno's. I know that they are not all the same and it isn't to debunk the power, but just to get a good idea of where power is coming from in the powerband. If it is additional peak hp coming from the fact that the rev limiter was raised, it is not so useful to me. But a hp increase across a broader range would be more useful.

I think a lot of the hype from Garett is based on his VW experience, especially his 1.8T work. The problem is that turbo as well as a lot of turbos he tunes for, are detuned in the chip already. A lot of companies are getting 20hp from the 1.8T. I really don't see the MCS being as detuned as everyone thinks.

The price is great, and really inline with more what I feel a 5-9hp chip should be charged. $800 is ridiculous for a chip. I really look forward to the dynos and the information on the USB cable.

 

Here Here!

 

OK from the posts by Eric and greatgro it would appear that the tuning is mostly software based, the OBDII/USB interface and cable being the new hardware needed, rather than a replacement or piggyback chip. If that is indeed the case, wouldn't it be more appropriate to call it a reflash product, rather than a chip? That would also explain the lower price point as compared to a replacement or piggyback chip.


DDTUNG

 

Fair enough. From henceforth, I proclaim it a reflash product.:smile:

 

I owe greatgro an apology. Last week he said "GIAC is very close" and I posted something along the lines of " Yeah, it's been very close since 2002". So, greatgro, now that the product has been released, my apologies and I shall insert my foot in my mouth

 

DDTUNG,


The term chip or ECU is interchangeably used amongst us. In truth it is not a chip upgrade. But in reality none of the units out there are chip upgrades. They are only flash upgrades or the Unichip which is a piggyback unit. None of them actually require you to remove the Siemens unit and replace with their own unit.


Helix,

Will this chip be further tunable at a GIAC center? It sounds like a lot of GIAC chips can be done this way. There seems to be different levels of chip tuning.

• Factory Chip: Tuned for a wide range of users and conditions, with no aftermarket part "awareness".
• Aftermarket Chip tuning: Tuned for more performance, with some aftermarket "awareness" (i.e. the chip is tuned on one or two customer cars, assumes that these cars are representative of the populace, and is tuned against a set of aftermarket components on these customer cars and again assumes the impact of these upgrades are representative of the populace). The chip still cannot accommodate the specific impact of your specific aftermarket upgrades, fuel conditions for the area you live in, as well as climate.
• Customer Tuned Chips: Tuned for performance, with your exact upgrades and circumstances accommodated.

The final tuning is what really brings out the last little bit of hp and takes into account your specific components. With at least 6 different throttle body setups out there 58.5mm, 59mm, 60mm, 61mm, 62mm, 63mm, when a chip is tuned for an upgraded throttle body, the chances are it is only tuned for either the most popular out there, or the one that the tuning company sells, same with heads and many other items.

I am hoping that it can be tuned at a GIAC facility. At this point it only seems that the Unichip and the AmD allows you to do this. The AmD can be tuned but only at their shop in New Jersey.


Also can you clarify the 3-9hp. Was this at different rev ranges or peak hp on different cars?

 

don't believe everthing you read about Helix.


Contrary to Minihune, those cheesesteaks are about 10 minutes away.

Last time I went to AMD in NJ, they had a computer to load security codes, their pre-programmed tune and whatnot on to the One-click, but no tuning facility in NJ; that was being done in the UK.

 

The ECU is more than a chip. It is an electronic device made up of chips and discreet components. It is my understanding that some tuners claim that they remove a chip(probably an EPROM containing the various maps) in the ECU and replace it with one of their own.

Not trying to be difficult here. Just want to clarify a few things and remove some of the myth of 'chip' tuning.

DDTUNG