In my experience modding my car I have bought as you can see by my signature a fair amount of parts from a variety of vendors. Some have exceeded my expectations and some have let me down. I look to the debates on this forum to get info from people who are more knowledgable than I for info to help minimize the let downs.

An open debate is a checks and balances in the marketplace. Do I think that M7 should post their data, absolutely. Do I think Andy has a right to question claims, absolutely. Do I think Andy is very diplomatic, NO. Do I get info to ponder from Andy and am I glad that he brings up these points, yes.

When a claim is made and money spent not only for the part but the labor and then the dyno does not confirm the claims......it is frustrating to say the least. some of us are more able financially to take a hit on a part that does not perform......it still pisses us off.

I do understand that M7 is sick of people bashing them. I do support them and their products because I think they are the most consistently creative vendor for the Mini (IMO).

I think censorship is a bad thing.........restaint and compliance would be a far better solution.

 

OK, I'll clarify my point.

Let's say I get a Vendor account and make a post here that says I have a new exhaust that costs $300 and outflows every other exhaust on the market by a margin.

Next, I reply to my own post and say that I absolutely will not provide any sort of data to back up my claim. In that reply, I demand that nobody ask for data.

Since I took the position of not providing data (my reply), where have I made a specific performance claim? Will you move/lock/edit/delete any posts that ask for data to back up my claim?

 

If a thread does come up in the Performance Mods, then they are not obligated to post to this thread, they can just feel free that anyone who wants to discuss their numbers in the Vendor Announcement can give them a call.

Unfortunately, M7 brings some of this on themselves and the Site Administrators should discuss some of this with them. Given the history of this forum, and some of the history that either M7 or some other vendors have, they should be aware that they need to be cautious. They need to word their information differently from their posts on the TeamMightyMiniz site where there are a lot less questions asked. I think it is very irresponsible for a vendor to announce large claims. These aren't claims such as produce 3 hp. These are claims such as outflow every other intake on the market. To announce this without any other information and a refusal to give anything else is irresponsible and also damaging to other vendors who do post numbers and do contribute positively to this forum. This is our forum and not a vendors forum. If a vendor wants to make his own forum and post this information than that is great. But it seems like a vaste majority of people here do not want to see a vendor post outlandish claims without either an apology or some kind of numbers to back up their claim. It is unfair that a vendor like Alta pays good money on this board and posts numbers, but another vendor can come on and say ours is way better than Alta's, but I don't have to prove it to anyone.

Additionally I think a vendor should be responsible for the information that they release. Not only in what they claim, but in what other's claim. For a long time, some vendors like to leak information out, which almost always without fail drives up negative discussions.

I think there are two ways to handle this DiD. You can either ban members or posts regarding this (which will not stop it), or you can maintain some code of conduct from vendors (which some vendors try to maintain), which will stop this problem. To me vendors have a responsibility and NAM members have a right to ensure that conduct is followed in fair manner. I would much more rather see a code of conduct (a fair code), than to see post removed or threads locked. Establishing some form of a code, will ensure that information is presented fairly for all vendors, remove a vaste majority of negative threads, and eliminate locked threads. To me this is a win-win situation for all, and one that should supplant the lose-lose situation that we have now.

 

I just wanted to chime in on this disscusion, and tell our side of the story.....

We have no problem giving numbers to anyone who want's it, just call me.

The problem is, when we post something here on the board a certain group
of members start to badger us with unresonable questions IE. we (M7) are
held to a higher set of standards when it comes to giving numbers and technical information then any other vendor.


We posted airflow numbers for the AGS, numbers that was given to us by a
customer. The numbers where very impressive, but as soon as they where posted "the usual suspects" started to tear it to bits, questioning the validity
of the numbers. The amount of AGS threads that's been closed down is embarassing, all because of a few diehard detractors can not restrain them selfs.

I would like to ask all the detractors who are so uppset that we have not shown any numbers and dyno charts where are the dynocharts for:

From: Tuner A who is repetedly telling everyone that their CAI is
making 12hp, a pretty lofty promisse don't you think.

From: Tuner B who is stating that their CAI is making 13hp, you must be kidding me,Where's the dyno charts.

From: Tuner C telling everyone that their intercooler is "Making"
a solid 20+ hp..... where's the dyno proof.

From: Tuner D who is telling everyone that their uppgrade kit is making
a solid 245hp with no dyno charts to substantiate the claim...

Where the hell is the outrage for this?

The way I see it is. that some members really disslike M7 and at any cost will
try to badmouth us, tear our product offerings appart, sabotage our threads
and do what ever it takes to make us look bad.

Is this going to stop us you must be kidding me, we have tons of new innovative MINI stuff coming down the shute that will kick ***...

And yes I did speak to Mark about the situation on the board, and asked him
to figure out a way to make it easier to post without getting slammed and
sabotaged everytime we post.

peter
Team M7
562-608-8123

 

NO

You're missing the point entirely. A discussion started by a member is entirely different than a discussion started by a vendor.

- a vendor starting a thread implies (to myself, and many others here) that they want to have a discussion.

- a thread started by a member is 1) inevetible and 2) does not require the participation of the vendor. They can join the discussion if they choose to, and answer only the questions they choose to.

 

i think it brings up the point that m7 seems to be somewhat doing themselves the problem.. they know the potential people who will pick apart ANYTHING that isn't scientifically proven... yet they still open the thread for discussion.. you are just knowingly feeding yourselves to the wolves anyways... if you dont want people asking for numbers, have the people discuss the numbers privately.... just making a claim without backing up would ALWAYS have someone askin why... and we just naturally assume a few things... its irresponsible... even if you do post numbers... would people not buy your product? some people do not buy on facts... at least i dont think everyone in nam buys on fact

other vendors have no problems with this.. look at minipilo's head flow charts... did ANYONE try to challenge dan's results by saying 'ooo, what is the condition and stuff'? no... yet i do not think they EVER make any attempt to say their head flows better than any other head out there.... (if im wrong, im sorry) which is why minipilo, alta, and other vendors have kept away from the sharks by just showing numbers, if someone wants to challenge them, they can give conditions etc... and people can just decide if they want the part or not...
m7 has shot themselvse in the foot... they created mistrust among those who wants data... and it will only continue... if they never provided data to begin with, and none of their products provide data... no one will ever trust them with their claims....

 

Have you seriously convinced yourself of this? Where is the badmouthing? Where is the tearing apart of your product offerings? Where is the sabotage of your threads? Examples please.

Have you even bothered to read any of the posts that you are referencing? Is it more likely that there is a vast conspiracy of M7 haters ... OR ... are there lots of people on this board who ask intelligent questions and are persistent about getting answers?

 

IMO, there are two groups... of "troublemakers".

1) the "numbers" guys - Andy (and an occasional one or two extras)
2) the rest

Andy is running his own crusade. The "rest", are just tired of hearing about M7. Yes, Peter, you're clearly getting targeted and you brought it on yourself.

The constant advertising of current and new products and promising of future or hypothetical products seems to be your sales strategy. I can only conclude that it's working since you have been doing it for some time and if anything more frequently of late. If that's the case, you should just accept the negative backlash as a the cost of doing business. If it bothered you, the sensible thing would seem to be to reduce the amount of advertising you're doing - let things calm down a bit. Instead, the pace post frequency increases. The phrase "any press is good press" comes to mind.

[edit] BTW, I don't think that Andy necessarily has it out for M7. He seems consistent with his posts, regardless of vendor. There are just more M7 posts to participate in.

 

Another question. You have obviously convinced yourself that the above statement is true. If there really is a conspiracy against you ... WHY do you feel that members have decided to target you? Is it just luck, fate, chance? Is it coincidence that the people asking questions appear to be among the more technically astute members on the forum (whether they got to be astute through book learning or school of hard knocks or both)?

 

Well if your definition of troublemaker is 'person who has enough common sense and intelligence to ask the right questions rather than be a lemming' then I agree. If not, why don't you give us your definition so we're all clear. Be very specific.

 

Allow me to take a stab at answering this. I think it is hard for most of us to free ourselves from the idea that stock parts are inherently compromised from a performance perspective by constraints of cost, noise, reliability, etc. Therefore, it seems to me that most any vendor can claim an improvement of their part vs stock, and as long as there are no obvious visible engineering defects, most people will accept that there is some performance benefit. To be sure, the exact numbers (if any) may be viewed with some skepticism, but the general claim is not seriously doubted.

In the current situation, though, M7 crossed into unexplored territory when they compared flow of the AGS to ANY other intake. Such a comparison extends beyond the stock intake (with its compromises) to include intakes specifically designed for performance. So, this really is a bold claim, profoundly different from the others quoted above.

Given this, when M7 made the decision to withhold their data, the sparks started to fly. Personally, I resepct M7's right to keep their data confidential, even though I do think it is ill-advised.

 

No......you answer my question.

Why aren't you picking apart the other guys offerings, with promissed hp#
that never lives up to it's promisse..

So what part have we not delivered on lately, and don't say the SC wich was dropped for one reason only....there's no market for it, period.

peter

 

Don't change the subject. This isn't about them.

 

Actually it is. The subject is about every single person that participates in the Performance Mods forum...

 

Do a search for my posts. From the Alta intake to the Magnaflow exhaust, I have consistently sought data on all sorts of products on this board. Feel free to use the convenient Search function:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ms/search.php?

I don't understand the question. This thread is about people asking for performance information on a product from a vendor. What does that have to do with parts that you have "not delivered on lately".

Now that I have answered your question, please answer mine. WHY do you think that the conspirators are out to get you?

 

There will always be differing schools of thought regarding validity and viability of different mods and parts available on the market. This is not unique to intakes and pulleys and whatnot. Apply our current dilemma to washing machines. Every manufacturer in one way or another says their machine does a better job at cleaning clothes. You'll have customers that fall into a few categories:

-Those that take mfr. claims at face value and pick their box from what they see as the best,

-Those that wait for an independent group to pit the machines against one another under laboratory conditions (think Consumer Reports) and select from the highest rated boxes,

-Those who have always bought appliances from a certain manufacturer because they have had luck over the years with that brand, or that was the 'family' brand,

-Those who buy a washer for a particular style or color to fit their aesthetic needs, perforrnance or construction is secondary

-Those who buy a particular box because of how it's built, style or performance is secondary

-Those who buy the first thing they see, or buy according to price alone.

Perf Mods people can see themselves in one of these categories. Let's use the infamous AGS as an example:

-Some will buy because they like M7 products, period,

-Some will avoid it entirely because they dont like M7 products,

-Some will pick it because of it's unique design. This seems to be one of the biggest factors in play here, since the system is totally unlike anything else out there,

-People might buy it for the sound, and nothing else,

-And some will buy for the performance claims.

Since the thing is so new, it hasnt had much of a chance to make the rounds in a lot of tuner's hands and build up a reputation for performance gains and such. Badgering Peter for numbers endlessly becomes rather pointless. Let the early adopters get their hands on the stuff as well as those doing side-by-side comparisons and wait for some independent numbers. Randy Webb and others have been doing that for a few years now and it's been an indispensable resource for everyone here. Those who wait a while for such testing can pick from proven parts without using their car as a guinea pig.

I tend to put myself in the that latter category but still willing to try something new or different here and there. I feel I have done well on both counts. I am also willing to offer my opinions to anyone who asks. I've learned from many here, and it makes me better informed as well as willing to do something some others havent tried before.

 

yeah!

why did you (speaking collectively and anonymously) delete my post about ram air? or in another thread/context, the discussion about liability?

 

If M7 wanted to keep their data confidential, that is great. I have no qualms about it, but the problem is that they made claims and said that all types of numbers would be forthcoming (a whole suite of tests). It is not the fact that they are withholding numbers, but how they are going about it.

Again, Andy has been very consistent with a lot of this. The fact of the matter is that M7 out of all the boards that I visit on a regular basis is the only vendor that has ever made a claim that there product is better than any other product in the world. Does anyone see why someone would be critical of this. Not only do they withhold the numbers, but they have never even testing every intake against there own. They claimed it ouflowed all the rest back in December, and they didn't even have a product at that time (not even a prototype). They were still having an install problem with the prototype. So basically M7 was lying at that point, and exagerating and building hype on their product on lies. They had no way to prove in December that their product outflowed every other intake on the market. Who likes a vendor lying? Not me. And based on this post and others, the overwhelming answer from other members is that no one else likes it either.

As for why no one attacks any other vendors with such swiftness. I don't think any vendor has ever done what you have done with the AGS. You can see all your threads below in which you claimed something, but never delivered. No other vendor that I am aware of has made the outlandish claims that you have and then just walked away from it, not expecting any kind of backlash.

M7 claims that airflow testing will be done on Friday, December 8th between AGS and all competing systems (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post434677)


M7 claims that it does (gain) more air than any other system (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post445696)

M7 claims that they currently have tons of data that they will share on December 25, 2004 (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post445696)

M7 claims that they will have CARB approval on a released product in two weeks (from December 30, 2004) (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post447917)

M7 claims to be showing NAM the numbers right after everyone gets back from the holidays (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post448420)

M7 claims to have run airflow numbers on January 14, 2005. Not sure why they needed to airflow it, since it had already been airflowed almost a month ago. Gains were 10%, with Randy coming up with some great ideas to increase flow and decrease costs. (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post458910)

M7 again claims it will outflow anything else anyone can mention (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...&postcount=152)

M7 claims to be doing dyno runs the week of February 7th, and will let us know asap (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post472376)

M7 claiming that they never did a CARB approval back in January as claimed they would, but only after the product is released (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post472489)

February 22nd, still no product (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post483632)

M7 releases information for preording the AGS to be released by April 22nd (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post518733)

M7 admits it's original dates were wrong and they apologized (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post518734)

First mention of someone getting a production version of the AGS - April 24th. No pics or information on the website though. (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post530574)


After all of their testing and numbers they begin to ask people for sound files (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post531550)

M7 begins to say customers will have to give any information on flow numbers or dynos (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post533535)

First photos of the M7 from M7 on 5/9 (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post542601)

M7 posts customer's airflow numbers (https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...AGS#post542601)

 

Very interesting thread guys. Since I'm not a regular in the Perf/Mod section, I am responding from an "outside" perspective. I think all the questions and requests for data are fine, but reading this back and forth between m7 and Andy makes me wonder, why the hell don't you guys take this into PM's, emails, or phone calls between the 2 of you?

Why force the rest of the community to watch and have to read through these posts that really should be taken offline? Your last couple posts here Andy are personal and really serve no purpose for the rest of us, unless you are trying to publicly express some ill will towards m7.

Just my 2 cents.

 

One additional element that hasn't been discussed here, but should be, is the animus that developed in some of the threads between members. The continual requests for numbers are one thing, but on more than one occasion a member or members on each side of the fence would get into ugly flame contests. It's ugly, and not in keeping with the spirit of the forum. Here's some excerpts from the site guidelines:

"The North American Motoring community is a place where you can express yourself...as long as you treat your fellow enthusiasts with respect.

North American Motoring reserves the right to organize the site, discussion forums, and content to best serve the majority of the community.

North American Motoring also reserves the right to prohibit or delete discussions that are thought to...be harmful to other members."


Ultimately, this is not a democracy. The Mods hold the cards, and their decisions are final. I've seen plenty of boards where mods would have been banning members and so forth, so kudos to the mods here for listening to everyone's point of view.



Bottom line, they've stated what they expect, it's time to accept it and move on.



One more thing: Peter has posted (somewhere in the threads) that he will answer the questions about numbers if one is willing to call. Why not make the call, and get the answers? If he asks that the info you are given be kept off the forum, honor his request, but you can still post that you talked to Peter, got answers to your questions, but Peter asked that the specifics be kept off the forum. Then people can decide if they are mad about not getting info posted, or decide to make the call for themselves to get the info. If you truly want the info, make the call!

 

a factor to consider is that, especially since the internet, any two-bit twelve year old novice can make a claim, cite a "fact" or print a "conclusion" and the credibility of same can go un-questioned. However, there is something about the printed word sticking in the mind, so "pseudo-facts" spread as facts. "The 19% pulley will make you water pump cavitate, or overheat the bearings and blow superchargers, etc." So there is a need, a responsibility, to question claims, sources, conditions, citer's background, you name it. toss in some shakey past experiences (plasma booster...outrageous claims, etc.) and the game ramps up.

 

Actually, It seems to me most people are upset with M7 for making claims without substantiation....the problem here is we're talking about vendors (people or entities) trying to make money though sales of their products, not ordinary guys braggin' about their rides. Members feel betrayed by this behavior - and are rejecting it, not the vendor.

To M7's example, tuners A-D (if I'm reading Peter's post correctly) are amatuers/enthusiats spewing about how great this or that thing on their car is. There is a difference. Tuners A-D are giving purely opinion/impression/bravado. M7 seems to be making statements/claims designed to influence (hopefully) people's purchase decision making process....I mean, that's why we have truth in advertising laws, right?... Remember the snake-oil salesman of 100+ years ago?

Look, in the end, a healthy dose of scepticism is good for members, vendors and the MINI community as a whole, as it tends to keep people for the most-part honest (vendors and members). If a vendor wants to make a claim and not back it up with a dyno chart/numbers that's their decision... Member's should then just decide for themeslves if that sort of communication is a good thing or a bad thing. Vote with your wallet.

Eventually the free-market will sort it out IE, either the vendor will sustain economic damage and change their style, or it won't be painful for them and they'll continue making 'impressionistic' claims. But no one here should use antagonistic language and try to get anyone pissed-off. C'mon folks...let's be adults. Spread the cult, not the hate.

...And I just want to say - I'm a fan of M7. I love their springs (!!!!), I hope they keep the good things coming. ...just know that most people are pretty bright, and will vote with their wallets.

Cheers - - Michael

 

What an impressive list, did Andy send it to you..

Bottom line is, if you guys wouldn't be such jerks, constantly harping on every
little detail, always complaining about what we do and how we do it, you would have had plenty of numbers to chew on.
But early on I was adviced (rightly so) that showing numbers would be ill adviced and there would be no winning showing anything.

And for the record I had the AGS R&D system in my car for close to a year
testing it against some bench marks, just to make sure it does what I claim.

Again where's the dyno numbers from all the other non-offenders
They lie in their advertising everyday and none of you Crusaders
seems to mind, could it be you use their products.

peter

 

Sigh ... again with the conspiracy theories.

Peter, tell me this. Have you seen any other vendor claim that their product outperformed (in a very measurable way) every other competing product on the market? Did the vendor then refuse to provide data to back up that claim? Did that vendor then complain to the moderators on NAM to get threads asking for that data removed? Do you still not understand exactly why people are questioning you for numbers?

 

Andy....seriously

You are the problem, you have been on a crusade since day on to make us look bad. No conspiracy theories necessary to see that. I get more phone calls from customers asking what the hell is the problem with that Andy guy, and this is
not a new phenomenon I heard it for years......

I would actually venture to say it's your fault that we do not put out numbers anymore....Thank you Andy, I'm sure eveyone here at NAM appreciate your
crusade against M7 wich leads to less for everyone else.

peter