Sounds like it somehow does everything including violating the laws of physics! :smile: I dont completely understand the concept, but kudos on the short ram design. I agree with you that the majority of intakes are relying on the filter to make the power and thats not the way to do it. Looking forward to your upstream/downstream test results.

 

Do you mean it violates physics for the part where it allows a larger volume and higher velocity together? I don't feel like googling physics laws to be sure.. rather make some discussion here on this rainy day.

 

The key question, I think, is if the air mass per unit time (mass flow rate) increases and, if so, by how much. I also wonder how that could happen and, in particular, how you could simultaneously have a larger diameter and a faster flow. Mass has to be conserved in a closed tube: a given mass of air going in one end has to come out the other so, if you look at any cross-sectional plane of the tube sliced perpendicular to the tube, the mass passing through that plane per unit time is constant regardless of the diameter of the tube. Constrict the tube and the velocity increases; enlarge it and it decreases.

It would be interesting to see actual mass flow numbers that would prove or disproved the claimed advantages.

Mark

 

why would you want a higher velocity via the "velocity stack"?

assuming you get a higher velocity by reducing cross section. aren't you starting to get more non-ideal flow with more boundary layer effects, etc?

 

I've always associated velocity stacks with directing airflow into the Venturi for a smooth transition.
To bad this graph is for a normally aspirated engine, haven't found one for a supercharged engine yet but I know one's out there.
Aren't we looking for the bottle neck in the system here, the ideal
no restrictions in or out.
CFM = ???.? at 100% volumetric efficiency
Oh what the heck do I know anyway.
Chart Showing Main Venturi Sizes for Various Engine sizes and RPM ranqes


Rare metal spark plugs @ $16.25 ea., Wa ha ha.........

 

What's this thing sound like during start from a light, WOT, cruising, etc, etc, etc........ swooshy, boggy, throaty, jet engine, etc, etc, etc........

C.A.R.B. approval is my next biggest question! Yes, no, maybe so..... How long will the process take? I've read others that say they're getting this done but it seems like they say it's coming but nothing is ever posted again about it. I don't mean this will be the case with you but to us in Cali, it's a big deal. I don't want to have to unbolt things every couple of years to get smoged

Is it me or are mods getting stranger and stranger for our Mini's?? Seems like the prices of things would come down before things would get more elaborate but that's not happening. Non of the last sentence is spacific to M7's AGS but with all this talk of twin SC's, front mount IC's and turbo replacements, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed that our little 1.6L engine is going fall out of the engine bay from all this stuff.

This AGS looks interesting but I'll let you guys try it out a while before I get onboard. OH, btw how is the ECU adapting to this thing? MPG difference, unichip map????

 

Hi JLM,

The idea of high velocity air for power has to do with using the inertia in the gas flow to get more charge into the cylender as it fills, and the piston slows on the intake stroke. All that fast moving gas upstream exerts a force on the gas at the valve and stuffs a bit more in. Think of it as "topping off" the charge in the cylender.

This is a perfect example of paying a bit in effeciency (the boundary layer you mentioned) but getting more air in. The extra energy returned is by burning more gas, and releasing more chemical energy.

Matt

 

It's not a priori true that the gas velocity will be higher with this set up, but it may be, it may not be. MarkS has it right.

The way you describe flow for thing like this is called conductance. Size changes, protrusions, sorces of turbulence, bends etc all create friction or resistance to flow, and you end up either flowing less gas as a given pressure drop, or need a higher pressure to maintain the same flow.

to go a little nerdy, this is also a function of the gas (or gas mixture) that is flowing, the pressure and the temp.

Getting back to our car, the increase in conductance (due to smoother walls and better transitions, as well as increase in effective diameter), will mean that the pressure drop across the part is smaller for the same flow, and you end up with a higher overall boost pressure relative to atmosphere.

The larger diameter is interesting. It isn't really needed UNLESS the car is starved for air redline, it really contributes more to final capacity (think redline).

So if the increase in conductance is such that more mass will flow, and this increase in mass is by more than the increase in effective diameter, then it will result in increased velocity and diameter at the same time.

But my guess is that it will have lower velocities, but higher mass delivery, up untill red-line, when every bit of flow is needed.

sorry if at the end of this, it wasn't worth reading!


Matt

 

Hi Fly.......

Let me try to explain and help you with your questions.

The sound of the AGS has nothing in common with jet planes, mortar rounds
or the space shuttle.. As a matter of fact it's kind of subdued because of it's location in the engine compartment, but at full throttle you will get a very distinct Supercharger shriek..

CARB approval is of highest importance for M7, and a system will be delivered
with the necessary paperworks in the next week or two.

When we originally designed the AGS, the price was arbritarily set at under
$300 for a couple of reasons, the first reason would be that 90% of the
cold air intakes on the market are priced below $300, the second would
be that the market could bare that price range.......fast wind to today
and let's look at what we are offering to you the enthusiast!!

A vastly improved system not just a filter and a heat shield, these are the parts you will receive for less then $300.

1. Patented AGS tube
2. TB elbow connection
3. (3) Stainless steel T-band hose clamps (Very expensive and the best)
4. (2) Stainless steel wire hose clamps (at bypass valve)
5. High quality silicone hose (between TB and elbow)
6. Custom wire harness extension (no need to splice in to ECU harness)
7. (2) barbed fittings for the Map sensor and vaccum.
8. (1) barbed fitting for oil vapor return line
9. Molded heat shield
10. Foul weather plug for the front air intake
11. Custom made Air filter (no rubbing on the hood)
12. Misc Goodyear emission hoses

And more, but I won't tell..

And if you send in your registration card you will be able to buy the
cleaning/recharging kit for less then $10 bucks.......

You know, looking around at all the other products on the market, this is
one hell of a deal for $299.

As for addaption of the ECU/ Unichip/ MTH I would not worry to much
as the ECU with upgrade is seemingly "A no problem".

Feel free to call me, pick my brain or............

peter
Team M7
562-712-3270

www.m7tuning.com

 

So where is all that profit coming from
looking forward to the graghs..

could you PM me the price of the kit with the throttle body..
I won't be sending the stock one back since I would have to pay for the shipping going both ways(not worth the fuss aswell)

 

no question, it sounds like a great price.


Peter what is "patentable" about your intake tube?

 

Matt,
You seem to a pretty decent grasp of these things and my fluid dynamics is a bit rusty. :smile: Let me run some thoughts by you....

The throttle body is varying the amount of air the engine ingests by rotating the throttle plate, which varies the restriction. This is exemplified by the change in manifold vacuum as the throttle plates tips. The throttle body is, by design, the bottleneck of the system, no?

So if the only way that mass can enter the AGS tube is through the throttle body, there is no way that the larger diameter AGS tube can achieve everything claimed without violating a conservation of mass or energy law or two.

I'm not sure I understand the concept of making it larger and the utilizing a velocity stack, which is essiently just a tube with a that tapers to a smaller diameter. It seems like you're creating some extra work for the air to do for no good reason.

I'm all for removing the bend and shortening the intake system's length but the rest seems like hype to me. All in all, a better solution (in theory) than most. Now we just need some numbers...

 

what I got from it was that speeding up the charge in the port and up to the valve due the port size restricton will cram more air into the chamber simply due to the extra molecule momentum. What I'm not so sure of is what good it would do to speed it up upstream of the ports where the boundary effects will simply build up more.

 

Numbers are overrated. Will it be available in different colors? :smile:

 

does the extension off of the TB put placement back into stock location?(where the TB used to be) Ie will my silicone charge pipes go right on like they do with the Tb and is the extension the same diameter as the TB?

 

Can yoy elaborate? Why/when is this useful/needed?

TIA

 

No, that's why I can't use this system on my twincharge

 

to quote Randy webb: "suck, squeeze, bang, blow". Still the same old thing, but what I want to know is why a fan isn't introduced to the air intake system so that the "suck" part is actually"blown"(man that all sorta came out x-rated, hope the moderators don't delete it ). if the problem is getting more air to the supercharger ,why rely on suction?

 

Well that's a supercharger for the supercharger. There's got to be an end to it. There are electric super/turbo chargers out there but the current draw is very high. Your just going to draw more power from the engine (via alternator) to run some fan in the intake. Even if it allows the SC to function more efficiently, your not even going to break even unless everything is 100% efficient.

 

as stated by Holdenontoit
to quote Randy webb: "suck, squeeze, bang, blow". Still the same old thing, but what I want to know is why a fan isn't introduced to the air intake system so that the "suck" part is actually"blown"(man that all sorta came out x-rated, hope the moderators don't delete it ). if the problem is getting more air to the supercharger ,why rely on suction?

Wasn't this the Idea behind the Twin charged minis like El Diablito's

but the Method should be " Suck, Blow, Squeeze, bang and blow " if were talking about the path of the air going thru the engine on a stock set up and "Suck, Blow, Blow, Squeeze, Bang and Blow" for El Diablito

I would go one.. but its getting more xrated by the word

 

why am I becoming EUPHORIC reading this?

 

why don't you add the twin screw blower?

 

hmmmmmmmmm..... twins.........

 

Can we get it in carbon fiber? :smile:

 

Despite all the poly-syllabic vocabulary, the concept is easy. The inproved flow path allows for more charge in the cylender at a given throttle positon. So, for standard motoring, you press the gas pedal less to get the desired effect, so if you never go fast, it just doesn't matter. But since this doesn't apply to any of us, we'll move on.

All of these adders really "help" at the extreme of motor operation (think high rpm or wide open throttle). Since you get more charge into the cylender with better intake dynamics then when the trottle is all the way open, you get more than the stock set-up, and more power! (If hp were a drug... I'd be hitting on it all the time!). This is where the benefit lies.

For the velocity effect, this is mostly used in intake runner design, as the valves open and close. I don't know if the input to the SC modulates the air flow or not, but it won't be as sever. I think long narrow runners are used for higher torque at lower RPM, and short fat ones for high RPM horsepower. Go look at some Edelbrock intakes to see what they do to tune for power at RPM. This would have more effect at the actual intake manifold, and having a SC may reduce the benefit of the gas inertia, as you have pressure to drive the gasses in.
Back to the air gain. Less pressure drop in the ducts drives higher overall boost levels.

Hay M7 guys: do you have to modify the bypass with a stronger spring?

For all that suck blow etc (I'm older and get tired ) what about the ducted fan on the input (search on electic supercharger for a real headache!)

Matt