Drivetrain M7 Air Gain System... Sneak Peek
Originally Posted by macncheese
...I'm all for removing the bend and shortening the intake system's length but the rest seems like hype to me. All in all, a better solution (in theory) than most....
2nd Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 115
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From: Southern California
Because . . . it's more then that . . .
Originally Posted by flyboy2160
what he said. you can't throw out that buzzword bingo stuff when people with a real technical background are reading; you just lose credibility. why not just say "it's shorter and has the fewest bends."
Every restriction, bend, increase in length adds to the work needed to be done to get the air into the engine. If you had numbers for the system, you could do a balance equation from one system to the next to show which is more efficient. What ever work the SC must do to pull the air through the intake tube, is lost HP. It is probably fractional, but still a loss.
Of course the ideal system would be a straight shot into the intake, but then that would look ugly sticking out in front of the car, wouldn't it?
3rd Gear
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 198
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From: San Fran, Bay Area
Originally Posted by M7
Hi Fly.......
Let me try to explain and help you with your questions.
The sound of the AGS has nothing in common with jet planes, mortar rounds
or the space shuttle..
As a matter of fact it's kind of subdued because of it's location in the engine compartment, but at full throttle you will get a very distinct Supercharger shriek..
CARB approval is of highest importance for M7, and a system will be delivered
with the necessary paperworks in the next week or two.
When we originally designed the AGS, the price was arbritarily set at under
$300 for a couple of reasons, the first reason would be that 90% of the
cold air intakes on the market are priced below $300, the second would
be that the market could bare that price range.......fast wind to today
and let's look at what we are offering to you the enthusiast!!
A vastly improved system not just a filter and a heat shield, these are the parts you will receive for less then $300.
1. Patented AGS tube
2. TB elbow connection
3. (3) Stainless steel T-band hose clamps (Very expensive and the best)
4. (2) Stainless steel wire hose clamps (at bypass valve)
5. High quality silicone hose (between TB and elbow)
6. Custom wire harness extension (no need to splice in to ECU harness)
7. (2) barbed fittings for the Map sensor and vaccum.
8. (1) barbed fitting for oil vapor return line
9. Molded heat shield
10. Foul weather plug for the front air intake
11. Custom made Air filter (no rubbing on the hood)
12. Misc Goodyear emission hoses
And more, but I won't tell..
And if you send in your registration card you will be able to buy the
cleaning/recharging kit for less then $10 bucks.......
You know, looking around at all the other products on the market, this is
one hell of a deal for $299.
As for addaption of the ECU/ Unichip/ MTH I would not worry to much
as the ECU with upgrade is seemingly "A no problem".
Feel free to call me, pick my brain or............
Let me try to explain and help you with your questions.
The sound of the AGS has nothing in common with jet planes, mortar rounds
or the space shuttle..
As a matter of fact it's kind of subdued because of it's location in the engine compartment, but at full throttle you will get a very distinct Supercharger shriek..CARB approval is of highest importance for M7, and a system will be delivered
with the necessary paperworks in the next week or two.
When we originally designed the AGS, the price was arbritarily set at under
$300 for a couple of reasons, the first reason would be that 90% of the
cold air intakes on the market are priced below $300, the second would
be that the market could bare that price range.......fast wind to today
and let's look at what we are offering to you the enthusiast!!
A vastly improved system not just a filter and a heat shield, these are the parts you will receive for less then $300.
1. Patented AGS tube
2. TB elbow connection
3. (3) Stainless steel T-band hose clamps (Very expensive and the best)
4. (2) Stainless steel wire hose clamps (at bypass valve)
5. High quality silicone hose (between TB and elbow)
6. Custom wire harness extension (no need to splice in to ECU harness)
7. (2) barbed fittings for the Map sensor and vaccum.
8. (1) barbed fitting for oil vapor return line
9. Molded heat shield
10. Foul weather plug for the front air intake
11. Custom made Air filter (no rubbing on the hood)
12. Misc Goodyear emission hoses
And more, but I won't tell..
And if you send in your registration card you will be able to buy the
cleaning/recharging kit for less then $10 bucks.......
You know, looking around at all the other products on the market, this is
one hell of a deal for $299.
As for addaption of the ECU/ Unichip/ MTH I would not worry to much
as the ECU with upgrade is seemingly "A no problem".
Feel free to call me, pick my brain or............
Sorry if I infered that it's not worth what your charging as I do believe it's a fair price and considering the TB option, very fair.
I was just trying to make a general statement about how mods are becoming more elaborate. I'm interested in the AGS but I want to see how the filter media is attached and what kind of hp numbers your getting along with people experience with the product. BTW thanks for developing new cool stuff for our mini's.
Thread Starter
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Former Vendor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,594
Likes: 2
From: los angeles
Hi Fly..
Here's an Image where I did draw an aproximation of a filter for you to get an idea how it looks when installed.
As for Hp and flow numbers we will have all the numbers as soon as everyone get's back from the holidays.
JLM your question regarding the patent is very simple, we did it because we can
and should. To cover us, from other companys copying our design and use of materials. The patent covers design (designs) and application of the AGS tube and are Mini- Cooper specific.
peter
Team M7
562-712-3270
Here's an Image where I did draw an aproximation of a filter for you to get an idea how it looks when installed.
As for Hp and flow numbers we will have all the numbers as soon as everyone get's back from the holidays.
JLM your question regarding the patent is very simple, we did it because we can
and should. To cover us, from other companys copying our design and use of materials. The patent covers design (designs) and application of the AGS tube and are Mini- Cooper specific.
peter
Team M7
562-712-3270
Just a thought....
for those of you that are used to electronics, think of everything passive that the gas flows through as a resistor, to some extent. (In this case, the throttle body would be a potentiometer). It's true that improving the gas flow (lowering the resistance of the electical model) will always result in more gas (current) flowing for a given ambient pressure (voltage).
So, why does any of this matter? If you think about changing one resistor in the circuit, the benefit is based on the total resistance of the circuit. As stated above, the TB is usually the largest resistance (if not all our cars would run at redline all the time) EXCEPT at wide open throttle. Then the only resistance to flow is the fact the the butterfly is in the gas path. (This is why opening up the TB is so bitchen)
Anyway, I've found that lots more people are comfortable with resistors etc, than gas dynamics. The analogy is strong, and can be carried quite far.
Hope this helps for the electronically inclined that aren't into fluid dynamics!
Matt
So, why does any of this matter? If you think about changing one resistor in the circuit, the benefit is based on the total resistance of the circuit. As stated above, the TB is usually the largest resistance (if not all our cars would run at redline all the time) EXCEPT at wide open throttle. Then the only resistance to flow is the fact the the butterfly is in the gas path. (This is why opening up the TB is so bitchen)
Anyway, I've found that lots more people are comfortable with resistors etc, than gas dynamics. The analogy is strong, and can be carried quite far.
Hope this helps for the electronically inclined that aren't into fluid dynamics!
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,816
Likes: 2
From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
So, why does any of this matter? If you think about changing one resistor in the circuit, the benefit is based on the total resistance of the circuit. As stated above, the TB is usually the largest resistance (if not all our cars would run at redline all the time) EXCEPT at wide open throttle. Then the only resistance to flow is the fact the the butterfly is in the gas path. (This is why opening up the TB is so bitchen)
Ideally, you dont want to open the bore of the TB if you can get away with tapering it to the same diameter, knife edging the plate and thinning out the shaft. The idea is least resistance in the smallest diameter.... just like in exhaust design. There are no 4" exhaust for the Cooper S, but they'd have the least resistance.
There is another reason for mainting a small diameter in the intake system and thats the eaton positive displacement supercharger. The blower ingests a given volume of air every revolution and spits it out the other side, but there is also a bit coming back the other way. I'm pretty sure the stock tube is smaller than the inlet to reduce backflow in the intake system. The same principle is used on the mounting flange of an intake manifold to a head. You want the head's port to bigger than the intake manifold to reduce backflow when the intake valves open on the exhaust stroke. If you dont do this, the intake charge gets contaminated with end gas.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
peter, help me out with the patent;
I searched the USGPO separately for air gain systm, mini cooper and horvath with no results
Surely you aren't claiming a molded plastic intake runner, plastic filter duct and re-located TB with connectors is a patentable design?
I searched the USGPO separately for air gain systm, mini cooper and horvath with no results
Surely you aren't claiming a molded plastic intake runner, plastic filter duct and re-located TB with connectors is a patentable design?
Last edited by jlm; Dec 31, 2004 at 07:18 AM.
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 370
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From: Gurnee, IL
Please forgive my ignorance, but if you just increased air flow, wouldn't you lean out the mixture, unless you were running rich to begin with? For optimum performance wouldn't you have to remap the fuel delivery system to compensate for the increased air flow?
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
Originally Posted by jlm
peter, help me out with the patent;
I searched the USGPO separately for air gain systm, mini cooper and horvath with no results
Surely you aren't claiming a molded plastic intake runner, plastic filter duct and re-located TB with connectors is a patentable design?
I searched the USGPO separately for air gain systm, mini cooper and horvath with no results
Surely you aren't claiming a molded plastic intake runner, plastic filter duct and re-located TB with connectors is a patentable design?
What Peter is showing is definitely patentable. But what is patentable is not necessarily defendable. Patents for much "looser" items have been granted. If the patent office thinks the design is unique, somewhat well documented, and a patent doesn't exists, they will most likely patent it. But now a days the patent itself is meaning less and less. It really comes down to the documentation that someone like Peter attaches to the patent and the pictures and drawings. Sometimes changing one small thing, like moving the TB 10mm, could be outside the scope of Peter's patent if Peter or a lawyer didn't right it up well. Someone could design a device that looks identical to Peters and still not be in violation of Peter's patent if it wasn't written up right.
In my opinion the United States needs to redo the entire patent process and revamp the entire organization. It is becoming a mess and the stuff that people are patenting are just ridiculous. It is just a good way to add more lawyers into the system.
1. "....Here's an Image where I did draw an aproximation of a filter for you to get an idea how it looks when installed...."
--------------
2. "Because . . . it's more then that . . .
Every restriction, bend, increase in length adds to the work"
-----------------------
3. "The idea of high velocity air for power has to do with using the inertia in the gas flow to get more charge into the cylender as it fills, and the piston slows on the intake stroke. All that fast moving gas upstream exerts a force on the gas at the valve and stuffs a bit more in. Think of it as "topping off" the charge in the cylender."
--------
1 & 2. this picture looks like the ags removes a bend downstream of the TB, but adds on upstream to mount the filter. this looks like the same total number of bends as the HAI.
3. i understand the concept of using dynamic gas pressures in both intakes and exhausts to help get the desired flow, but i don't see how this applies the the supercharger [edit] inlet runner. are you guys claiming that the new runner is a tuned length? do you do any calculations? if so, at what gas velocity and flow rate?
--------------
2. "Because . . . it's more then that . . .
Every restriction, bend, increase in length adds to the work"
-----------------------
3. "The idea of high velocity air for power has to do with using the inertia in the gas flow to get more charge into the cylender as it fills, and the piston slows on the intake stroke. All that fast moving gas upstream exerts a force on the gas at the valve and stuffs a bit more in. Think of it as "topping off" the charge in the cylender."
--------
1 & 2. this picture looks like the ags removes a bend downstream of the TB, but adds on upstream to mount the filter. this looks like the same total number of bends as the HAI.
3. i understand the concept of using dynamic gas pressures in both intakes and exhausts to help get the desired flow, but i don't see how this applies the the supercharger [edit] inlet runner. are you guys claiming that the new runner is a tuned length? do you do any calculations? if so, at what gas velocity and flow rate?
That's what the ECU is for.....
Originally Posted by Morris9982
Please forgive my ignorance, but if you just increased air flow, wouldn't you lean out the mixture, unless you were running rich to begin with? For optimum performance wouldn't you have to remap the fuel delivery system to compensate for the increased air flow?
Here's an interesting thing to ponder. A guy in my mustang car club built a twin turbo 5 litre and ran it with the STOCK COMPUTER! The inputs are manifold pressure, the Mass Air Meter signal, throttle position, RPM and some mods for various temps, and it works! He'll get a lot more out when he tunes around his normal operation point (he is running a map for a NA motor), but he's pretty happy with the 600 HP he's pushing now.
We can't do it for the mini yet, but for the ford computers, you can buy logging/tuning software for about $500-$600. One of them supports 4 tunes plus stock. So, you drive, log analyze, tune, drive, log etc. now with the "computer dynos" you don't even need to pay for dyno time!
Unichip comes close, but doesn't have the data logging. Too bad, cause if it did, I'd have one!
Matt
Thread Starter
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Former Vendor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,594
Likes: 2
From: los angeles
Originally Posted by uae mini
How long will this custom filter last?
maybe its too early to ask, but its worth a try.
maybe its too early to ask, but its worth a try.
If taken care of properly(cleaning and reoiling) it will outlast your car....
We will have a re-charge kit available for a very low $9.95 if the
warranty card is returned with the order....
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,446
Likes: 9
From: L.A ca
The $ 599 price for the AGS and 62mm Tb is factoring in the exchange of the stock TB.
Randy
www.M7tuning.com
Randy
www.M7tuning.com
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by maxmini
The $ 599 price for the AGS and 62mm Tb is factoring in the exchange of the stock TB.
Randy
www.M7tuning.com
Randy
www.M7tuning.com
btw thx for the reply M7
