And nobody believed me...

 

It is interesting to note that the "Official ALTA Q & A" thread has been fairly active, and while there may have been some slightly snippy remarks, the discussion has been informative, valuable and mature.

Maybe your "ATTN Moderator Staff" thread didn't make the cut, but you're still getting the results you're looking for, more or less. Just be sure to continue thanking members for their posts and answering the questions as you have thus far. It's a pretty good model for the type of Vendor/Tuner/Member interaction we're hoping to restore to NAM.

Great work, Alta.

 

I like Randy Webb's method. His site has a "Garage" section which is a bulletin board. He can do what he wants with HIS OWN BBS.

 

Then why are you making such a big deal out of this? Just leave, real simple.

 

BRAVO! if all the vendors and all the moderators shared this rational, self-secure point of view, we wouldn't have had all this drama.....and we'd all be wiser from what we learned from each other.

makes me want to just go out and buy something from ALTA....even if i don't need it and it doesn't make any horsepower!!

 

Thanks for trying to promote a new standard re: moderation, censorship/editing of vendor initiated threads.

While I certainly appreciate the good intention of the mods - trying to keep things fun, civil and clean... The community is done a disservice by unnecessarily editing and or censoring posts which ARE on topic.

No doubt its a tough balance here. But there needs to be more thought on how issues such as the M7/AGS/heatshield threads are dealt with.

At least one member has commented that he felt the AGS thread, and others like it were marketing ploys... that the vendor knew his claims/wording would create controversy and this would draw attention to brand/product.

No one can prove what M7's intent was or was not... So let’s not go there - period!

Irrespective of intent, if the end result is equivalent (vendor/product gets attention) why then would the site/moderators allow any vendor to post a controversially worded thread? Furthermore... after X many similarly controversial threads hasn't a pattern emerged? ...and doesn't this pattern demonstrate a need for change?

 

The controversy was not in the wording of the thread, the original that is. Some did not like the fact that M7 decided not to post numbers after he said he would, he changed his mind, that simple. Some can't accept that, it's their problem and they should learn how to deal with it, not come here and harp on it. Particularly when subsequesnt threads were started and those same individuals followed those threads around and poisoned them with the same questions they should have known would not be answered.

Even when some numbers were posted, it was not enough for those that were clamoring for blood. Yes, I know Andy, you say they were not to your satisfaction because they did not test the whole system, but it wouldn't be to difficult to extrapolate a conclusion based on what was posted.

You should be careful of what you wish for, the end result might not be to your liking.

 

Ergo: I should not whish for anything if I am not 100% certain that the outcome will be to my liking. No thanks. No reward without risk.
I do not share your opinion(s) as to the motivations of the other member(s) you site.

Additionally
IMO it's a mistake to profess that you know (with certainty) another poster's motivations and or intent. Further to this I believe it would be in the best interest of this thread and yourself if you were more cautious in your statements... When supposition turns to accusation folks get offended.

I'm of the opinion that we can have vendor involvement without many of the pitfalls we now experience. I'm also of the belief that much of the problems we're experiencing could be avoided by judicial wording of stated findings and or claims… Instead of expressing unproven information as absolute fact or truth it should be expressed as opinion, belief or findings.

I haven’t implied that I have all the answers, however I have made suggestions. Involving one’s self in finding a solution is proactive. I encourage others to do the same.

 

As a site that receives revenue from paying (advertising) vendors, you can't blaim NAM for wanting to promote an environment conducive to attracting more paying vendors. I will once again (I said this many months ago on a similar thread) remind everyone that this website is a business, and not just some basement project. I will also remind everyone that access to the Internet does not grant you freedom of digital speech - unless it is on your own website. The owners/moderators of NAM have every right to modify, move, or delete posts and threads as they see fit - you, as a contributor, have no rights other than what they grant you.

Those are the fact of life for Internet forums.

That being said, my opinion is that Alta's suggestion is fair - allow vendors to post and defend themselves. Anyone with a worthy product (and the ability to portray it accurately) will be able to weather any amount of negativity. Moderate abusiveness / language that does not contribute to the discussion, but do not moderate questions simply because they challenge the vendor.



There, I've stated my opinion, and I'm done. No one really needs to post their opinion on this more than once. The owners/moderators will get your viewpoint the first time - each consecutive post along the same lines merely drags out the thread and reduces your contribution.

 

I agree with you to a point. But without any people on this forum, the business also ceases to exist. It is a symbiotic relationship. Both people have to be satisfied to keep a board running. And I would probably go so far as too say that the members are more important than the vendors. If there are enough enthusiastic people on the board, vendors will want to come and purchase space/advertisement. If there are a bunch of enthusiastic vendors, but the members are upset, the board will cease to exist, since no one wants to pay for advertisement space with only 2 people on a board (obviously this is a little extreme). Secondly, boards that show no partiality and are very even handed, have a very good success, since the members know that they will get honest information and vendors will know that they have a good target audience.

The moderators on this board have done a good job with a more "hands off" approach, but that doesn't mean there doesn't need to be more rules. We currently do have rules, and I think the rules that we have make this a very successful site. Historically this board has had a tough time between members and vendors, more so than any other Mini board. And unlike what many people think, it has a long history of it. I think the moderators really need to think about the causes of why this is, and formulate a solution, otherwise it will continue. I do not think that banning vendors or users is the solution. You can see by how quickly this thread has gone, as well as others, that you would have to ban large groups of people. Someone has to step back and think, if a large majority of active posters think a certain way than probably it might be better to change practices, than deleting and banning people. The other thing that moderators need to think about, is that the complaints seem to always be the same. I think we need to spend some time in trying to solve the root of the problem and not look for quick solutions. Because as long as I have been on this board (which is 2002), these same problems keep coming up.

 

What large majority? You, kaeleria, andy, el, and a few others. You do not represent any majority mindset. If you claim to, show us the numbers.

I'm not picking on you guys, I just see your names all over the place.

There are thousands upon thousands of members here, and I get very accustomed to seeing a relatively tiny number of names on a regular basis.

I think your second statement above supports my premise, here. It's a very small number of people who spend a lot of time on this board, making the same basic statements in a lot of discussion areas.

 

The "Noisy Minority?"

Are these the same people that practice the "Hecklers Veto?"

 

Awww shucks. I like you too!

--
Cheese

 

For any business to be successful and remain such it relies on various aspects to attract clientele. In NAM's case vendors pay the administrator a fee to advertise - I don't believe the concept is alien to most members.

EDIT: More attitude than I'd intended

Members purchases (from NAM sponsors) pay for the site's vendors, and thus the site (not the other way round). Although this wasn't always the case - the business model did require start up time & investment prior to sales.

Vendors like Webb and Helix put a lot of front-end time into NAM and the vendors who've followed benefit from this investment - without having made as substantial a contribution of time/efforts IMO. Members like jlm and the oft-vilified andy@ross-tech have also been major contributors that helped this site (and other sites) gain thier current stature as useful MINI resources.

For NAM to continue to attract traffic it must remain vibrant and relevant. Stifling dissent because it upsets paying vendors won't do that.

Paying vendors will be only be attracted by business opportunity - a vibrant & relevant site which gets a lot of traffic - made up of probable customers.

To make a direct comparison, (IMO) MINI2, while a good site isn't anywhere near as technically savvy as NAM. It's much more sanitized... the bad word checker is set on EXTREMELY HIGH, and any thread which begins to develop an air of anti-corporate MINI sentiment (or other dissent) is quickly undermined or outright squelched by the overly corporately connected admin... and legions of MINI folk who frequently and blindly endorse anything MINI or JCW, then ask relevant questions later.

While you may not share my characterization of MINI2 I suspect there are those that do. Reading my words back, I might even be a little harsh. Can you appreciate what I'm saying?

IMO this makes MINI2 less relevant to private individuals wanting honest and unbiased technical knowledge about their cars &/or how to increase their performance. I believe NAM is a much better community in which to find this type of information. Especially for those in North America - however certainly not limited to it.

Now, the above is just my opinion... but if its anywhere near true vendors - especially those selling bolt-on performance modifications benefit from NAM's many visitors. Despite the negative bent some folks characterize.

Take the bad with the good. Do you want warm and fuzzy site ruled with a rubberized-iron MINI fist, or would you prefer greater freedom of expression/information?

FYI
I am an entrepreneur. I've been in business for over 10 years. I know how difficult new ventures are & how much investment they require, time, $ etc.

I know how to treat a customer or a prospective customer. If a dispute erupts always take the high road... Use "I messages" not "you messages" to express one's self... And if a prospective customer gets personal or out of line state plainly to that person that you are there at their service - not for their abuse. And NEVER do it in public if possible. Then, leave it at that.

We all need each other - site, vendors, consumers. No one is more important or relevant than another.
Agreed
I don't agree with your last comment at all. Would you prefer that this problem to be left alone... in hopes that it will fade away?

If the issue is allowed to die in this thread as simply a big rant-fest (no revised code of conduct for vendors/members or other solution) I fear we'll be right back here again soon.

I believe that the site and community is suffering. I think it's broken and needs fixing before further damage occurs.

We've heard from a few moderators, but I've yet to see anyone who can effect change agree that change is necessary. Further to this I haven't seen them make constructive suggestions or criticisms which might help to solve this problem. ...And I'm not talking the obvious "don't argue". If I'm forgetting something that the Moderators said, my apologies - it's been a long thread, and I'm going on memory.

Without some feedback I'm left with the impression that the status quo is acceptable. If the status quo seemed acceptable I wouldn't have started this thread.

EDIT: Darn... took too long to respond & I'm just duplicating what others have said.

 

:smile:

 

Hang on just a sec... Let's not address one hasty generalization with yet another hasty generalization.
How could either of you prove your position? This'll get us no-where (or worse) fast.

 

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh. It always boils down to numbers, doesnt it?

 

Yes... see everyone IS in agreement Deft use for sure. Sid's jumped on that a couple times too. Good ironic humor which even the "number guys" should appreciate.

 

True. But as I'm sure the owners of NAM have realized, this is a case of a very vocal minority. Every upset person in this thread could leave, and take 10 people with them - and NAM (and its paying vendors) would continue to thrive.

1) Yes, I understand you.
2) Yes, I prefer a (mostly) unmoderated forum. (I'm pretty sure I said that)
3) Being an entrepreneur does not grant you any specific knowledge of managing an online business. B&M principals != Internet savvy.
4) I never said your feedback was unimportant. But repeating yourself (with a post so lengthy I had to skim and snip it) does not hammer your message home even more - people tend to ignore you after the first repetitive message. Why do you think Mark stopped responding? He got the message the first time.

 

Excellent point..........and well said.

I disagree. See Gravedgr's comment above.

 

My absence from this and recent related threads explained gravedgr, very well put also...

 

To quote Ahamos quoting Andy: Show me the numbers
...Since when does operating an online business mean an individual is web savvy? Falacy & assumption.
I'm a wordy guy. I wish I were more efficient at expressing my thoughts - its a personal battle. This doesn't mean I'm going to avoid responding.

Mark hasn't made comment here.

 

Sure, 100 people leaving would not affect NAM - it is dynamic. What WOULD affect it is if NAM turned into a place where any vendor could promote any product (turbonator, 'voltage stabilzer' or 20HP module, anyone?) without critical feedback from the NAM community. One big infomercial? No thanks.

Yes, folks get overly picky at times, but IMO it's better than the alternative. As has been said, a competent businessperson who knows and is comfortable with their product will be able to 'defend' it.

 

We are a manufacture and we should be held to a higher standard.

We have to know hard numbers in order to design products for a vehicle. We have to test over and over again. We go through several proto types and designs before a finished product is produced. Once released my job as marketing director, is to educate and discuss our products.

I think many people take the theoretical “negative” comments out of context. These questions or comments are not being asked of a simple vendor or wholesaler who is defenseless. You are speaking directly to the person who made the part. The person who designed and tested the part. I should be able to answer just about any question you throw at me. And if I don’t, I will get the answer.

Our company has been on the receiving end of JLM and Andy’s interrogations. Members like JLM and Andy ask the tough questions which should be asked. I welcome their discussions on our threads and believe it only leads to a more informed consumer.
Our Q&A thread does not exist only to answer the questions of satisfied consumers. We are providing information to members who may doubt the viability or practicality of a product, who would like to question the design of a product, or who would like to question the hard “numbers” and stats of a product. I cannot ethically pick and choose the comments and questions presented.

There is nothing wrong with this message board. Mark has built it into a wonderful community , full of information, which provides direct access to manufacturers, tuners, and vendors alike. Ask the tuners how to tune your car. Ask them why the modified one part and not another. Ask a vendor which part he would put on his car and why. Ask the manufacturers why they designed a part a certain way and why I, the consumer, should buy it.

The only thing I ask of this community is that you not ask our company to directly compare our products to a competitor. Ethically I cannot answer that within the forums.

Thank you
Cheers

 

spoken like a gentleman...