In the past, running a forum was a major expense, and the cost of a gigabyte of space could be prohibitive, and thus excess off topic threads or posts could spell doom for the operators.

Times have changed, and so have attitudes. I got flamed on another forum for suggesting that people do a search before asking a question that has been answered a thousand times. In fact the moderators posted that they didn't care if people just posted the same questions over and over.

I don't know how many times I've been told to just use my delete key on mailing lists that contained frequent off topic messages.

I'm also on forums that could be considered to be overmoderated. Anyone straying off topic too often was quickly suspended. I must say that the forum was one of my favorites, but the moderator had to spend an inordinate amount of time devoted to keeping it going.

With all the subforums, it shouldn't be difficult for someone to post in the appropriate place, or for others to point out when someone is violating the guidelines. But there will always be those people who find it necessary to inject what they think is a humorous retort or hijack a thread. We can deal with those people by using the ignore feature. But it's like driving by an accident. As much as they disturb us, we don't put them on ignore, because we have this innate interest in seeing just how off topic or idiotic their next statement will be.

In the end, of all the MINI forums I read, NAM is by far the best for finding information or discussion on topics of interest. There have been few instances where I've found the need to report a post (like the guy who suggested I move to a gay forum). Or the bonehead who refused to type in anything but CAPS (but I didn't have to report it since so many people stepped in and let him/her know how offensive he/she was). Stuff like that quickly floats to the surface.

So, I guess my answer is Nothing is wrong here on NAM, at least nothing worth sweating over. I'm just glad it's here.

Jas.

 

When I first started NAM I had no idea of what the demographics of the community would be like. Given the discussions I had seen on other sites regarding street racing I didn't want NAM to become a breeding ground or coordination point for something like that. I still strongly feel that it is irresponsible behavior since it puts other people, unknowingly, at risk...a track or autocross is a better venue for this.

With that in mind NAM hasn't become a coordination point and, in general, when excessive speed and what looks like it could be street racing comes, members have jumped all over those that posted...effectively self-moderating it. With this in mind I'd open to revising the guidelines and terms of use for the site in this regards. Something along the lines of:

The above style would be something I would use in rewriting all of the "big" issues that we've faced on the site to date. There may be some of the smaller points that get dropped since they would be self-moderated by members of the site. In changing to this the process new members would have to check each of the items when they join the site. I'll have to look into if/how we do this for current members.

Also, prior to putting these changes in place I'll start a thread for comment on the changes.

Mark

 

It seems a battle against wills over multiple sites on the net has reared it's ugly head here on NAM too. I hereby nominate Onasled the Coordinator :: Road Racing Discussion to be the poster child of how not to be a Moderator.

See https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...&postcount=521 for the local content. There are posts on multiple other forums by Onasled doing his best to cut Siddhartha down. This is no way for a person that is supposed to show leadership qualities to act. While the majority of the disgusting behavior is being carried out on other forums it reflects poorly on NAM to have a person that is supposed to set the tone act in this manner. Yes, what you do with your own name on others sites does come back to haunt you.

Along those lines I fail to find any examples of how Onaseld has done anything to facilitate any types of ongoing discourse in the Road Racing sections. I for one, think it is time that Onasled is replaced by a responsible person.

 

Nathan,
Can you give me some background on this issue. I've not be on other sites of late to see if there have been issues between Onasled and other members. The only case I'm aware of was over on M|U but it seemed like it was some time ago. Can you fill me in so I can look into this issue further? Thanks!

Mark

 

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...9&postcount=38
http://www.motoringunderground.com/f...2&postcount=10
http://www.motoringunderground.com/f...6&postcount=70
http://www.motoringunderground.com/f...8&postcount=57

 

It doesn't change the concern (nor should it), but I do want to point out that Coordinator ≠ Moderator. There's a very significant difference... but I can appreciate why there might be a misunderstanding.

 

As far as forums go, a moderator generally coordinates discussion. So, with a title like "Coordinator :: Road Racing Discussion", association with the site is only natural to infer.

 

Again, totally understandable. I just wanted to clear that up here as it isn't the case. Coordinators do get a few rights, but they are quite limited compared to Moderators.

 

So I've read through everything (the complete threads beginning to end of the above). Let me summarize what I "think" I've read

• Siddhartha has a knack for talking up his abilities...to the point of being quite confrontational with others
• Onasled has been calling him out for his rhetoric and driving patterns on the track. Predicts an accident is going to happen.
• The guys on bimmerforums generally conclude that Siddhartha's driving at various events is questionable given the intended rules of the event.
• Accident happens...Siddhartha rolls his MINI and is ok
• Onasled comments here and elsewhere that this accident had occurred and includes the off-color Darwin comment posted by a user in the bimmerforums

Are there any other points I missed?

While I don't think that Onasled's comments were necessarily appropriate, being a coordinator of one of our forums, I have to ask (Devil's advocate hat going on here) why is there such a backlash about Onasled's comments as compared to what I've read from Siddhartha's over on M|U? From what I've read he's always been in everyone's face boasting of his talents and the consensus from those in the track community that have run into him is that he is something of a troublemaker or has been labeled as being potentially dangerous.

I'm not interested in defending the actions of either side of what appears to be a long running duel. I'm just trying to get an understanding of what type of issue is really at hand here...is there a huge lovefest for Siddhartha that I'm not aware of? Is there something that Onasled has done to Sid that wasn't revealed in these threads? Is there some more information that needs to be revealed?

Thanks for any additional insight you can provide on this subject.

Mark

 

Given the situation I can certainly see your point and the confusion that this kind of title creates. That said, I'd like to better understand what has caused this outcry (see my comments above).

Thanks

Mark

 

for me....this is the issue. an e-pissing contest....one out there doing it, the other here writing about it. whether it was an accident waiting to happen, who knows? I don't much care really. I guess I would expect more from a Forum Coordinator than playing an armchair QB and "I told you so" (it's as if he was anxiously awaiting this). The contentious vid that was mentioned...well....
http://www.motoringunderground.com/f...9&postcount=58

Anybody who's spent time at the track knows....sooner or later....you'll have an off. If you don't, you're not really trying hard enough to push things. To rub someone's nose in it is low-rent

 

It's not about volume of traffic... the fact remains that unless a LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL witnesses FIRST HAND something in the vehicle code, that person can't be penalized. It's pretty easy to deduce from that that a site someone is posting on can't be held accountable for that. There's a difference between YouTube hosting illegal content (Read: Copywrited media) and refusing to take it down and NAM allowing a conversation (which could have never even taken place) about street racing.

You're right in this day and age people can and will sue for anything, but we're talking about criminal ramifications, there exist few instances where someone would have a viable civil suit (Viable meaning it would even be allowed in court) against NAM over something related to street racing (Only thing that comes to mind is if someone was involved in a hit and run and there was an injury of some sort and racing was involved, obviously if NAM were to encounter a post such as that, it should be removed and/or reported to the proper authorities.

 

It is my perception as well as many of the members that Onasled's reason for joining m|u has been to fight with Jerry. While the fights are allowed, his reason for posting are not well respected. As Jerry may talk highly of his driving, he has still contributed to the forum in general. Onasled has made it clear that his only purpose is unnecessary drama.

 

My take is that as a representative of NAM Onasled needs to take a higher moral ground and not allow himself to be sucked into these issues. While Sid put himself up on the pedestal and knocked himself off of it there is no reason that Onasled should be chasing him to various forums and kicking him all over the net. One needs to watch their footprint on the net.

On the surface the points made in the post above do not show any issue. Whats missing is the undercurrent where Onasled seems to disparage Siddhartha at every opportunity. I'm no fan of the grandstanding Siddhartha does and do not like his cavalier attitude about HPDE's. I've posted about this too, but not in a manner that that looks to undermine at every opportunity. There are ways to disagree without using an axe. Given the Coordinator position Onasled enjoys here on NAM there is an expectation that he would rise above the fray and use the disagreement as a teaching tool for others interested in HPDE's as an example of what not to do.

I really have no idea what is expected from a Coordinator. I see it as a Moderator of their specific realm in the forums where one facilitates discourse, creates new topics to be discussed and sets a lead by example. Maybe I'm asking for too much of the position.

 

Yah....sid's a big talker....he's competitive. Onasled talks up himself too. Most racers do as far as I've ever experienced. I don't see that as an issue for either of them....or any future coordinator. The problem arises when it switches from the "I'm awesome, i can go fast" to chuckling about a potentially fatal accident that involved the other person. That goes from innocent bench racing (which can get intense, but is still in the good spirit of competition) to a personal attack (in my opinion).

Anyways.....if this discussion is in concern to onasled's ability to be the coordinator....sid's personality doesnt really play into the discussion because he isn't a coordinator. Onasled's actions should be examined separate from any actions of others who have not held position as coordinators anyways.

Even if Sid did have a bad rep, it doesn't make onasled's post any more appropriate. "Two wrongs don't make a right." About as simple as it gets....we all heard that from our parents, I'm sure.

Proof can be easily reached. Check out M|U and look at his profile for his past posts.....of the posts that onasled has made in the past 12 months....well over 60% were spent bashing sid. None of his posts aimed at contributing positive things to the forum. His intentions become pretty apparent when you look at his past posts.

 

Some background...
Onasled was set up as a coordinator several years ago...long before this situation started brewing and he, like Jerry (Siddhartha), have posted and contributed a lot to the site. When we set him up it was a coordinator which is similar to a moderator except that the things they can do are much more limited. As the years have gone by we've done away with the coordinator capabilities in the general forums and only support the concept in club forums (where there is turnover of club officers, etc.).

To be honest I hadn't noticed that Onasled still had this old status and I understand the confusion it has created...and rightfully so in light of this ongoing e-battle-royale.

Ideally I want strong leaders overseeing the various general forums of the site. That said, because of the criticism that has been leveled regarding favoritism, uneven moderation, etc. I'm more sensitive than ever to selecting/asking members that represent the best spirit and knowledge of the community and not just the interests and opinions of a few people.

I have a short list of members that I'll be talking to about these kind of roles. If you have other recommendations please forward them to me via PM.

As for Onasled and his posts...I've always tried to disregard what is posted on other sites for the reason that people have different personalities depending on what social situation they are in...the same is true online. That said, a consistent pattern of behavior expressed elsewhere and then rolling over to NAM tells me that it is connected. Given this I'll be making some changes in this area.

Mark

 

from right here I see an analogy forming... watch a pro UFC fight... these guys talk crap... these guys are accually going to hit eachother... (not like most of the internet tough guys I see round forums)... but when the bell rings at the end of a round... they'll pat each other on the back... "good round" there's only 3 in UFC... they are brothers in what they do out side of those rounds...

that's how Jerry is... I am not seeing that from Onasled it's more... I'll throw mud in yer eye when we leave after the fight...

I wish I had the $ to break my car... cuase that's the one reason I couldn't ever get out on the track and race Jerry... cuase I know... hands down... all he wanted was to have someone.. heck everyone... come out.. learn the car.. and if you can, BEAT HIM... he would have been honored.. especially if he had helped by teaching you.. sitting in the passenger seat yelling at you... LOL

 

NAM seems OK to me

 

 

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=118611
If there is not a level of accountability then this common mis-conception needs to be further dispelled.

I know this was discussed earlier but even with the ratings system, members and visitors alike are proneto being mislead by association.

 

I've had issues with a few vendors here but I don't hold NAM accountable, I hold the business principle and their people accountable.

 

You are correct. Any recommendations as to how to fix this issue?

 

It's more a business listed as a NAM vendor brings about a sense of saftey.

I'm aware that message boards are centers for issues but it seems multiple vendors cause more trouble than needed. My suggestion would be a clear indication at the top of the vendor page making lack of a return endorsement clear.

 

Ok...say that was done. How would that change things? (just playing devil's advocate here) Would less people have issues with vendors?

 

NAM is not Consumer Reports. The members here are not subscribing to a service that vets a business or the efficacy of its products for the Mini community. That is our responsibility as a member. Have a bad or good experience about a vendor then speak up. It's also a members responsibility to check into the vendors they want to work with. NAM merely provides a location where those of us with a common interest to congregate. That space needs to be funded, thats where the vendors come into the mix. Just as a devolper builds a shopping center where members of that community can gather it needs to be funded, so it's filled with stores. You would not chase after the landlord if a store in that location wronged you. If the store wrongs enough people they eventually fold. As Mark would state...it's the evolution of business. Companies live and die on how they treat the customers. You can't expect the venue to go to bat for you or to protect you from a rogue vendor.