What is wrong here on NAM
It's more a business listed as a NAM vendor brings about a sense of saftey.
I'm aware that message boards are centers for issues but it seems multiple vendors cause more trouble than needed. My suggestion would be a clear indication at the top of the vendor page making lack of a return endorsement clear.
I'm aware that message boards are centers for issues but it seems multiple vendors cause more trouble than needed. My suggestion would be a clear indication at the top of the vendor page making lack of a return endorsement clear.
Lets assume you are a rabid Cubs fan with season tickets around a large of others that have the same tickets for years. You have Cubs bedsheets, every Tee shirt has something to do with the Cubs. You play 10-14-23-26-42 in the lottery since those are all the #'s that are retired. You all know each other well and are comfortable in the setting. In fact you feel "safe" when ensconced in your seats at Wrigley. Does this mean the products and services that are advertised around the field is endorsed by the Cubs allowing you to buy with impunity from these companies.
A message in the vendor area is not a bad idea, but how much do you expect NAM to coddle and protect you. We have all seen the proliferation of warning labels trying to save us from ourselves. Common sense tells me not to hold my lawnmower by it's deck to trim the bushes. Common sense tells me the hot coffee I ordered is going to be hot. This is not a nanny state. We have to take responsibility for our actions. We have to do our own research.
I think a clear disclaimer stating that NAM is seperatefrom and does not review or hold accountable its vendors for their products or service; would provide a more cautious approach fromthe average consumer, instead of supporting this well they're a vendor on NAM so I can trust them if they made it on there. NAM has grown big enough and has its many enclaves, which at times I have seen lean toward an elitest attitude, which I fear is somethign that is trickles down into the implication if one is a vendor on NAM they are better than one that is not, my experiances have shown that is not the case and on surface level there is a strong sense of reverse backing (even the general site guidlines leave a merky but strong implication, that is not lived up to in my interpretation).
At least I had all the correct letters.
I think a clear disclaimer stating that NAM is seperatefrom and does not review or hold accountable its vendors for their products or service; would provide a more cautious approach fromthe average consumer, instead of supporting this well they're a vendor on NAM so I can trust them if they made it on there. NAM has grown big enough and has its many enclaves, which at times I have seen lean toward an elitest attitude, which I fear is somethign that is trickles down into the implication if one is a vendor on NAM they are better than one that is not, my experiances have shown that is not the case and on surface level there is a strong sense of reverse backing (even the general site guidlines leave a merky but strong implication, that is not lived up to in my interpretation).
so, how does a disclaimer change things? would people really act any different with respect to choosing a vendor? I went through these same machinations on another site for the same reasons....one vendor was causing issues and the fact that they remained a vendor implied to some the 'stamp of approval' from site mgmt, which wasn't at all the case. We were tired of dealing with them too, but the members had a love/hate relationship with this vendor...they were very polarizing in this regard.
I just have a predisposition to hone in on :rogue/rouge: as it's the screename for one of my buddies on another site (whom I know in real life). common type/misspelling and we love to exploit it (all in good fun) 
I think a clear disclaimer stating that NAM is seperatefrom and does not review or hold accountable its vendors for their products or service; would provide a more cautious approach fromthe average consumer, instead of supporting this well they're a vendor on NAM so I can trust them if they made it on there. NAM has grown big enough and has its many enclaves, which at times I have seen lean toward an elitest attitude, which I fear is somethign that is trickles down into the implication if one is a vendor on NAM they are better than one that is not, my experiances have shown that is not the case and on surface level there is a strong sense of reverse backing (even the general site guidlines leave a merky but strong implication, that is not lived up to in my interpretation).
Do you read the warnings on a sleeping pills that it might make you drowsy before you take one?
It has reached the point with warning and disclaimers on everything that now they go largely ignored.
Ever read that airbag warning on your sun visor?
I'd venture to say you already knew that you should not let a baby play with your plastic dry cleaning bag before you read the label the first time. I'm sorry, people need to have and use common sense and the tools they are given between their ears to protect themselves. Warning or placing a disclaimer in the vendor listings that just because an entity is listed doesn't mean they are any good protects no one. Besides the person that made that inference did not even check to see if the vendor was still listed before asking about them.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,337
Likes: 8
From: oh10
I'd venture to say you already knew that you should not let a baby play with your plastic dry cleaning bag before you read the label the first time.
That's an interesting thought, but how does NAM differ from any other public gathering place that has advertising?
Lets assume you are a rabid Cubs fan with season tickets around a large of others that have the same tickets for years. You have Cubs bedsheets, every Tee shirt has something to do with the Cubs. You play 10-14-23-26-42 in the lottery since those are all the #'s that are retired. You all know each other well and are comfortable in the setting. In fact you feel "safe" when ensconced in your seats at Wrigley. Does this mean the products and services that are advertised around the field is endorsed by the Cubs allowing you to buy with impunity from these companies.
A message in the vendor area is not a bad idea, but how much do you expect NAM to coddle and protect you. We have all seen the proliferation of warning labels trying to save us from ourselves. Common sense tells me not to hold my lawnmower by it's deck to trim the bushes. Common sense tells me the hot coffee I ordered is going to be hot. This is not a nanny state. We have to take responsibility for our actions. We have to do our own research.
Lets assume you are a rabid Cubs fan with season tickets around a large of others that have the same tickets for years. You have Cubs bedsheets, every Tee shirt has something to do with the Cubs. You play 10-14-23-26-42 in the lottery since those are all the #'s that are retired. You all know each other well and are comfortable in the setting. In fact you feel "safe" when ensconced in your seats at Wrigley. Does this mean the products and services that are advertised around the field is endorsed by the Cubs allowing you to buy with impunity from these companies.
A message in the vendor area is not a bad idea, but how much do you expect NAM to coddle and protect you. We have all seen the proliferation of warning labels trying to save us from ourselves. Common sense tells me not to hold my lawnmower by it's deck to trim the bushes. Common sense tells me the hot coffee I ordered is going to be hot. This is not a nanny state. We have to take responsibility for our actions. We have to do our own research.
It is the responsibility of vendors and members to address inquiries however they see fit as long as it falls within the Site Guidelines.
If you are a vendor selling a product, and you make a quantitative claim about its function or performance, you should expect to be questioned for data to back up that claim. Since this is a discussion forum, posts in areas other than Vendor announcements will result in questions, scrutiny and discussions.
As I do remember it being even more vague previously. And I'm a tad preplexed why there is a need for a seperate vendors only forum when they could just as easily post there and sticky and lock as nessacary and allow customer interaction, as it seems there is much duplicating back and forth between the respective forums and the vendors forum, if only vendors can post there wouldn't it bemore logical tohave such an area viewedby only them, as other forums on this site are?The change to the guideines has also promted a question, how do I check my points?
Do you read the license agreements in software before you click install?
Do you read the warnings on a sleeping pills that it might make you drowsy before you take one?
It has reached the point with warning and disclaimers on everything that now they go largely ignored.
Ever read that airbag warning on your sun visor?
Do you read the warnings on a sleeping pills that it might make you drowsy before you take one?
It has reached the point with warning and disclaimers on everything that now they go largely ignored.
Ever read that airbag warning on your sun visor?
dont take sleeping pills but I do check the labels and know whats up if I catcha side effect (each is different)
Yes I did, as I simple green andrazor bladed it off.
Think of it more as the disclaimer at the begining of movies. And PGT I did answer it, it makes NAM take a stand in a mere setnace to paragraph saying enter at your own risk because even if its implied we don't go checking up on these people. Which I think will lead many to do their own research, in a world where they are used to having so much handed to them.
More looking for the offical stance to be clearly stated beyond this thread, I'll waitto see Marks thoughts....
Last edited by Motor On; Oct 31, 2007 at 09:36 PM. Reason: And justtobe picky doesit always have to show when I edit?
7th Gear Gal
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 36,087
Likes: 3
From: Weeblegabber West (aka WLA)
Sidebar
My good friend, IsAMini, more accustomed to her 03 'MC, bumped her leg into my '03 MCS's exhaust tips, and Wanda "kissed" her leg, leaving quite a unique mark. Back On Topic: I think perhaps what Motor On is trying to convey is that because NAM grew in an organic, grassroots fashion, eventually accepting vendors to support the site, that those vendors' presence here appears to serve as an endorsement by NAM management, because of that very grassroots basis of the site.
I'll leave the vendor policy discussion to Mark (I try not to get involved in vendor matters, I have other responsibilities), but I believe I can answer this:For accountability... plain and simple. You could post something, something very inaccurate or very "bad", and later come back and fix it, then denying you ever said the first thing.
Look at it this way - when you make a mistake on an official document (including a check (cheque for the Canadians here)), you can put a line through it and initial it afterwards, to show everyone that you made the correction.
Similar principle here, although much less serious of course.
BTW, little known fact... when you create a new post, you can make edits to it for 2 minutes without the "Last edited by" text showing up. Great for those quick typo fixes.
Look at it this way - when you make a mistake on an official document (including a check (cheque for the Canadians here)), you can put a line through it and initial it afterwards, to show everyone that you made the correction.
Similar principle here, although much less serious of course.
BTW, little known fact... when you create a new post, you can make edits to it for 2 minutes without the "Last edited by" text showing up. Great for those quick typo fixes.
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 8
From: Norfolk, VA
You can guess what the result is - I put a line through my initials....and then I initial the line-out.
That's an interesting thought, but how does NAM differ from any other public gathering place that has advertising?
Lets assume you are a rabid Cubs fan with season tickets around a large of others that have the same tickets for years. You have Cubs bedsheets, every Tee shirt has something to do with the Cubs. You play 10-14-23-26-42 in the lottery since those are all the #'s that are retired. You all know each other well and are comfortable in the setting. In fact you feel "safe" when ensconced in your seats at Wrigley. Does this mean the products and services that are advertised around the field is endorsed by the Cubs allowing you to buy with impunity from these companies.
A message in the vendor area is not a bad idea, but how much do you expect NAM to coddle and protect you. We have all seen the proliferation of warning labels trying to save us from ourselves. Common sense tells me not to hold my lawnmower by it's deck to trim the bushes. Common sense tells me the hot coffee I ordered is going to be hot. This is not a nanny state. We have to take responsibility for our actions. We have to do our own research.
Lets assume you are a rabid Cubs fan with season tickets around a large of others that have the same tickets for years. You have Cubs bedsheets, every Tee shirt has something to do with the Cubs. You play 10-14-23-26-42 in the lottery since those are all the #'s that are retired. You all know each other well and are comfortable in the setting. In fact you feel "safe" when ensconced in your seats at Wrigley. Does this mean the products and services that are advertised around the field is endorsed by the Cubs allowing you to buy with impunity from these companies.
A message in the vendor area is not a bad idea, but how much do you expect NAM to coddle and protect you. We have all seen the proliferation of warning labels trying to save us from ourselves. Common sense tells me not to hold my lawnmower by it's deck to trim the bushes. Common sense tells me the hot coffee I ordered is going to be hot. This is not a nanny state. We have to take responsibility for our actions. We have to do our own research.
Do you read the license agreements in software before you click install?
Do you read the warnings on a sleeping pills that it might make you drowsy before you take one?
It has reached the point with warning and disclaimers on everything that now they go largely ignored.
Ever read that airbag warning on your sun visor?
I'd venture to say you already knew that you should not let a baby play with your plastic dry cleaning bag before you read the label the first time. I'm sorry, people need to have and use common sense and the tools they are given between their ears to protect themselves. Warning or placing a disclaimer in the vendor listings that just because an entity is listed doesn't mean they are any good protects no one. Besides the person that made that inference did not even check to see if the vendor was still listed before asking about them.
Do you read the warnings on a sleeping pills that it might make you drowsy before you take one?
It has reached the point with warning and disclaimers on everything that now they go largely ignored.
Ever read that airbag warning on your sun visor?
I'd venture to say you already knew that you should not let a baby play with your plastic dry cleaning bag before you read the label the first time. I'm sorry, people need to have and use common sense and the tools they are given between their ears to protect themselves. Warning or placing a disclaimer in the vendor listings that just because an entity is listed doesn't mean they are any good protects no one. Besides the person that made that inference did not even check to see if the vendor was still listed before asking about them.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 742
Likes: 0
From: Coopersburg (really), PA
One of the problems with vendors on forums like these is there is often a small group of posters who endorse almost anything, despite the fact that they know little of nothing about the product.
The unaware could look and think, wow! all these people like this product so it must be good.
Kinda like a FEMA press conference, where the attendees are not from the press at all, but FEMA employees
The unaware could look and think, wow! all these people like this product so it must be good.
Kinda like a FEMA press conference, where the attendees are not from the press at all, but FEMA employees
North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
Since Motor On quoted one of the items in the Site Guidelines I wanted to comment on it:
The intent of this wasn't to set the expectation that vendors would respond. The guideline was a direct result of vendors posting claims and getting upset when people wanting data to back them up. Vendors were wanting us to take some type of moderation action against the members they thought were troublemakers. Effectively I was saying in the guideline that if you make a claim about your product...incoming alert...you're going to get grilled on it....so be prepared.
While members of the site have asked for NAM to protect them from vendors we've also had the same from vendors...protect us from the members (ie - why aren't you banning them for making bad comments about us Mark?). In fact I addressed this very subject with vendors yesterday in a post I made...the follow is an excerpt from that:
Furthermore one of the things we started with new vendors coming to the site is letting them know up front that we won't be removing negative feedback.
One thing I will say regarding negative feedback. Posting to the site first is the easy way out...working to contact the vendor directly to see if you can resolve the problem should be the first action you take. Give them a chance. If you don't contact them first and you use the site to start railing on them you are doing everyone, including yourself, a disservice (vendor won't want to help you because you created a bigger problem for them, members are scared away from the vendor even though the issue could have been easily resolved, etc.). If you do make the effort and don't get anywhere the vendor and community needs to hear about it. This is where the forums are useful...negative feedback, if done constructively and not as an attack, can locate others that have had similar issue as well as capture, as a group, feedback that the vendor can use to improve his/her business. If the vendor doesn't step up they will drive more customers away and will leave the site...and that's ok. This is what I call Darwin's Theory applied to business. Only those that can adapt and strive to be stronger will survive.
Mark
If you are a vendor selling a product, and you make a quantitative claim about its function or performance, you should expect to be questioned for data to back up that claim. Since this is a discussion forum, posts in areas other than Vendor announcements will result in questions, scrutiny and discussions.
incoming alert...you're going to get grilled on it....so be prepared.While members of the site have asked for NAM to protect them from vendors we've also had the same from vendors...protect us from the members (ie - why aren't you banning them for making bad comments about us Mark?). In fact I addressed this very subject with vendors yesterday in a post I made...the follow is an excerpt from that:
There is a reason we haven't....
NAM has always been intended to be a community (a two way street) we have to balance the needs of the members with the needs of the vendors. With this in mind it was never our intent to provide a consumer protection service or vendor protection service. We provide the infrastructure and programs to facilitate communication between all parties.
In this community we have developed a target audience for many vendors. For interested vendors we provide services to reach that audience. The net is that we assist in getting people to your door. What happens to them after that is up to the vendor. If people stop coming to the door because of issues the vendor has the option to leave the site.
Why we don't remove negative feedback....
The reason we don't ban users like this is that they see the site as their last line of defense when they aren't able to get the problem resolved with the vendor (after they have made it through your door). Its your choice in how you choose to address them or not. However if their negative feedback were to be removed it would create a perception that we cover up issues because we are being paid advertising fees. This in turn would create more negative feedback, conspiracy theories, drive away members, and damage the community to the point that it would no longer be vibrant.
Its a two way street....
All of us receive some form of negative feedback on a daily basis. My hope is that we take it in, process it, learn from it, evolve our business practices, and do our best to make the customer a happy repeat customer. I know that there is always going to be someone you can't please but when I see several people addressing the same thing its likely something that needs to be addressed by the company.
Back to the question...where does NAM step between the member and the vendor? In effect we don't want to step in. Our goal is to facilitate the meeting (just like eHarmony)...what happens after that is up to the vendor and member. As long as it remains civil it should be allowed...we can all learn from what the members of the site are saying.
NAM has always been intended to be a community (a two way street) we have to balance the needs of the members with the needs of the vendors. With this in mind it was never our intent to provide a consumer protection service or vendor protection service. We provide the infrastructure and programs to facilitate communication between all parties.
In this community we have developed a target audience for many vendors. For interested vendors we provide services to reach that audience. The net is that we assist in getting people to your door. What happens to them after that is up to the vendor. If people stop coming to the door because of issues the vendor has the option to leave the site.
Why we don't remove negative feedback....
The reason we don't ban users like this is that they see the site as their last line of defense when they aren't able to get the problem resolved with the vendor (after they have made it through your door). Its your choice in how you choose to address them or not. However if their negative feedback were to be removed it would create a perception that we cover up issues because we are being paid advertising fees. This in turn would create more negative feedback, conspiracy theories, drive away members, and damage the community to the point that it would no longer be vibrant.
Its a two way street....
All of us receive some form of negative feedback on a daily basis. My hope is that we take it in, process it, learn from it, evolve our business practices, and do our best to make the customer a happy repeat customer. I know that there is always going to be someone you can't please but when I see several people addressing the same thing its likely something that needs to be addressed by the company.
Back to the question...where does NAM step between the member and the vendor? In effect we don't want to step in. Our goal is to facilitate the meeting (just like eHarmony)...what happens after that is up to the vendor and member. As long as it remains civil it should be allowed...we can all learn from what the members of the site are saying.
One thing I will say regarding negative feedback. Posting to the site first is the easy way out...working to contact the vendor directly to see if you can resolve the problem should be the first action you take. Give them a chance. If you don't contact them first and you use the site to start railing on them you are doing everyone, including yourself, a disservice (vendor won't want to help you because you created a bigger problem for them, members are scared away from the vendor even though the issue could have been easily resolved, etc.). If you do make the effort and don't get anywhere the vendor and community needs to hear about it. This is where the forums are useful...negative feedback, if done constructively and not as an attack, can locate others that have had similar issue as well as capture, as a group, feedback that the vendor can use to improve his/her business. If the vendor doesn't step up they will drive more customers away and will leave the site...and that's ok. This is what I call Darwin's Theory applied to business. Only those that can adapt and strive to be stronger will survive.
Mark
North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
One of the problems with vendors on forums like these is there is often a small group of posters who endorse almost anything, despite the fact that they know little of nothing about the product.
The unaware could look and think, wow! all these people like this product so it must be good.
Kinda like a FEMA press conference, where the attendees are not from the press at all, but FEMA employees
The unaware could look and think, wow! all these people like this product so it must be good.
Kinda like a FEMA press conference, where the attendees are not from the press at all, but FEMA employees
Regardless of their intentions it doesn't place any real significance in my personal evaluations of where I spend my money. I look at it as noise because I do a lot of research on the things before I spend money. I take all the good and bads things I can find, factor in my specific needs, and...usually...out pops my choice.
I can understand that some people are looking to be "told" what to do and noise like that described above can be very influential to them. I think that's fine as long as its a data point in the decision making process. While I've found many people with similar needs and interests to my own I wouldn't be surprised if I took their advice, bought the product, and then found it didn't exactly meet my needs....that's why I always do my homework, factor in my wants ("gee...its really cool looking"), make my decision, and live with it. Beyond being a community of like-minded individuals, the opinions you see here should be kept as yet another data point in your decision making process.
Mark
5th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 742
Likes: 0
From: Coopersburg (really), PA
Try saying that on another thread and the first response you'll usually get is "Why did you buy a MINI?" "Why don't you sell it then and get a Honda?" or something equally flaming.
Some people must not have garages, but two car altars.
Please genuflect before you post
Some people must not have garages, but two car altars.
Please genuflect before you post
North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
Regardless people need to relax a bit. With everything you choose to deal with a certain amount of, what I call, overhead. If you like cats you choose to live with the occasional hairballs. If you like Porsches you choose to deal with the higher cost of repair, maintenance, and mods. You choose your battles so regardless if you love something you also are aware of its warts. MINIs have warts just like everything else. Its shouldn't be sacrilegious to acknowledge that on NAM. If it is its time to get out and do some DIY maintenance to reset your expectations
Mark
5th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 742
Likes: 0
From: Coopersburg (really), PA
I posted two threads. One was remarking that parked next to a Gen I, the R56 looked bloated. Another asked what irked people about their MINIs (since there are some features which border on the bizarre). I guess one of the reasons is I'm something of a cynic. Another is NAM shouldn't be just a mutual admiration society for MINI owners. Here's some of the responses:
Thankfully there were also posts like this one:
BTW, I like cats, but don't own one. But it does annoy me when I come home from a cat owning friend's and there are paw prints all over my car. Why do cats seem to like sitting on MINIs so much? And for the first week after I bought my car, I'd come out and it was covered with bird crap (very appealing on an Astro Black MINI). Thankfully the bird moved on, or got used to the new car.
Over time, you learn who's who on NAM, and figure out how much credence to give to particular people's posts.
On the original topic, one thing that's wrong with NAM is when people quote a post with pictures, the pictures get quoted too, so some threads are filled with the same pictures over and over and over.
But this site is by far the best mix of information, discussion, and social interaction of all that I read. It's also one of the easiest to navigate. That counts for a lot more than you might imagine.
Jas.
Dear lord, just sell your damn car already if crap like this bothers you
NO, you're not (sorry, that is...if you were that sorry, you would have typed this personal grind and then backed up to delete it and moved on
Look, I have no problem with people making comments or venting but as the previous poster mentioned, if you like the R50/53 better, go buy one
Wow I just wasted time from my life to read this post.
Just curious jascooper, did you buy your R56 sight-unseen? Methinks someone just enjoys flame-baiting.
From some of the posts about countless "irks" ya start to wonder why they own a Mini.
Geez, man, with that many peevages, why did you even buy it ??
Wow, if you have that many issues why did you buy the car?
I remember back in the pre-R56 days when I could come on NAM & biatch about anything I wanted in regards to my MINI. Nobody ever jumped on me & told me to SHUT UP & GO BUY A HONDA. They either joined in the biatchfest because they had the same problems or pointed out why they disagreed. If the OP has gripes about his R56 it is his right. Just because he has a few gripes doesn't mean he should immediately rush to the nearest MINI dealership & unload his R56 for an R53. I don't believe he totally dogged the car out. It's just silly that he can't be allowed to say he doesn't like the seats or the rearview mirror without being pounced on & practically told to get rid of it or shut up. I shudder to think of the backlash that would have come had I said these things.
I wish more people would realize that a criticism of a component on the car you own isn't an all out attack on a family member... just sayin
I wish more people would realize that a criticism of a component on the car you own isn't an all out attack on a family member... just sayin
Over time, you learn who's who on NAM, and figure out how much credence to give to particular people's posts.
On the original topic, one thing that's wrong with NAM is when people quote a post with pictures, the pictures get quoted too, so some threads are filled with the same pictures over and over and over.
But this site is by far the best mix of information, discussion, and social interaction of all that I read. It's also one of the easiest to navigate. That counts for a lot more than you might imagine.
Jas.