at the risk of restarting an old debate, here are two GTech graphs, overlayed...

the black graph is 80 seconds at Devens, autocrossing. forty three turns...

the red graph is 96 seconds at NHIS. twelve turns... (hey, i'm a beginner!)

now i am not saying road racing is easy, but look at the extraordinary amount of work that the autocross course demands of the driver in comparison to the road course!

(see next post for data -- the website fooled me on this one, and I cannot now attach!)

 

huh?

 

(the missing data)

 

probably GTech data is an acquired taste, but i just coudn't resist the comparison...

 

That's one way to make a comparison. How about an hour of driving time a day at the track vs 5 minutes of driving time a day at an autocross.

or... $40 for an autocross day vs $200 for a track day.

 

Autocross "is so hard" because the sites are normally much smaller than a dedicated road course. If an autocross had the same frequency of turns as a road course, you could fit maybe one or two turns on the average autocross site. (not very exciting)

But I don't think you were really looking for an answer.

 

Why is autocrossing so hard? Because if it was any easier you could call it road racing.


Just kidding guys, sort of.

Scott
90SM

 

I agree 110%. I love going to track day where I can run the same circuit again and and getting it's nuances down. Takes me at least a session on a new track to learn where to go. Now if I autox I get lost, never really feel comfortable about where I am going. To me AutoX is hard as heck where track days are down right fun.

 

wha.........

 

How does the old saying go? "Road racing is for fast cars, autocrossing is for fast drivers."

 

Yep, I agree. Track is fun, especially when it starts to get dialed in after a few laps. I loved going to Second Creek in Denver before it closed!

Autocross is very challenging and I'm enjoying it more and more as I start to get a handle on some of the techical issues regarding car set-up. Learning the course and pushing myself to go ever faster are the hardest aspects for me!

 

Thanks for the graphs. Neat stuff.

Autocross and track sessions are very very different even though you might use the same car and it all seems like performance driving.

Things unique to autocrossing-
- You can use ANY car- bone stock is fine- just apply more driving skill. The best autocross drivers don't need the "best tuned" car, they can do well with what they have and beat the times of many others.
- Each course is different for that day- course setup is meant to be different for variety and the challenge.
- Since speeds are up to highway level you're not likely to get into as much trouble as on the track, wear and tear on your car is very limited
- You're on the course by yourself- Solo. No other cars to bother you.
- There are very many turns- I counted 27 turns in 29 seconds on one of my runs. This means you have to plan and think ahead.
- You don't get practice like on the track. You walk the course to study it, think, then do it for the fastest cleanest run in your allotment of trys for the day. Most of use can do really well if we practiced 8 times but doing well given only 3 or 4 tries is the challenge.
- Autocrossing is much more available (less expensive). it doesn't require a track, just a flat enough area (parking lot, airfield, etc).

 

AGREE! When a Mini can stay with a WRX in Auto X , you have a fast driver!!

 

I wonder about the interaction of a car and it's driver.

I think the driver and learned skill level is the chief determinant.

Then the car can be tuned for that driver more or less. Since every driver has certain tendencies, some can be exploited more.

Driving a Subaru WRX STi or Evo MR is quite a handful and I haven't seen many drivers capable of doing as well at autocross over the last three season. We might get about 10-15 drivers of these each event, many do return. One very experienced driver did very well in an STi after he totalled his BMW M3 on the track but has now preferred to drive an Older BMW M3.

The cars that will give my MINI a run of it's money are-
Toyota MR2s
Mazda Miatas
Datsun 240Zs
Honda S2000
(not in any order- depends on the driver)

Why are these all two seaters!?

OK, there is one BMW M3 that could be a factor for me. Guess what, but only when it's driven by that same former STi driver (his father owns the newer BMW and sometimes they both drive it in BSP class)

 

at NHIS there are 12 turns to screw up - twelve braking areas to mis-time, twelve apexes to miss, twelve opportunities to be too early or too late on the throttle, twelve exits to blow

the graph for that Devens course has fifteen serious brake applications, but it has forty one direction changes, most at 1g

at NHIS I ran it thirty six times

at Devens, three

for me to be quick on the AX course I have to learn it in chunks, not gates - i have to be able to pick a key cone out instantly and hold the intervening three gates in peripheral vision and make the car dance toward the one that matters

and that happens... sometimes twice a year!

and it makes me shout in the cool down area, and shake my fist out the window, and grin, and its the best most addictive, most elusive, most wonderful moment

so i will not go back to the track

to each their own poison

 

Interesting, as I have the exact opposite opinion. :D At pretty much every autocross, at some point during the day I say "I hate autocrossing! Why do I do this?"

 

OK, we have drivers that would agree with you. Many are much better on the track (some are champions locally) and find that autocross is too tedious and fast paced by comparison. Too little time to think, too many elements that come up quickly. No set course so hard to get familiar with where to go.

But at the same time, one needs to walk the course and learn by watching and planning. And one can't be thinking too much once on the course, one has to train to go with the flow, like skiing downhill or surfing the big wave.

The solution? Attend autocross school until they ask you to be an instructor, find some test and tune days and experiment on techniques, or switch to lapping sessions on the nearest track.

The good track drivers in my area all started doing solo racing, then moved to wheel to wheel racing. By comparison they are so smooth it seems they are hardly doing anything just like the car drives itself on the course. There is little wasted effort on throttle or braking and their lines are consistent and on the mark. I had a couple of them as instructors for BMW driving school, one remark was if he drove like autocross on the track the car would not hold up or he'd wear the tires extra fast. They drive smoothly to preserve as much performance in their car lap after lap. Less wear, less heat, more performance, less breakdowns, less expense.

 

I autocrossed my previous car (Jetta GLi) 7 times. Tires and brakes worn out quick!

Have done several track days with Swifty. Race prepped Miatas, Porsche 924, Ferrari 328, etc. are no match. I could hang with a Mitsubishi EVO MR, even in the rain (yes it rains in Phoenix). Tires and brakes are really worn out! Very hard on the car compared to autocrossing. Also, for insurance reasons, you can't have a timing transponder on the track, so the autocross time is cool.

I have trouble remembering what to do for autocrossing, so I say it's harder for that reason.

 

Having started in auto-x and moved to road racing (1st & 2nd gn RX-7's), instructing at track days and now after 7 yrs getting back into auto-x, I concur that they are two different tasks.

One of the first things I needed to do to be competitive in road racing (per a past SCCA Nat'ls winner) was to break some of my old habits gained from auto-x. The best analogy I can think of is the difference from being a slalom skier (quick, always providing max input either decel or accel, slamming the gates) vs downhill or Super G skier (patient, late turn in, nothing to unsettle the ski/tire).

Either disciples have their ups and negatives, and both require a unique style and mindset. One thing of note on the differences I've noticed in the past 15 years....you can drive an auto-x course with aggression and possibly turn a good time....drive a track overly aggressive (regardless of cars around you) and you will not necessarily gain time, especially in a 30 minute or more session.

 

It's the hard that makes it great. (Tom Hanks as Jimmy Dugan in a League of Their Own)

 

Another way of looking at it - if I road race on an average track I'll have to perfect around 10 turns, and get them all right in about 90 seconds after having taken at least 20 laps of practice.

If I autocross on an average course I'll have to perfect around 30 turns, and get them all right in about 70 seconds after having taken no more than 2 previous runs.

Gee Mr. Wizard, why is autocross so hard again?

Cheers,

Charlie

 

Why some driver's don't like autocross-
Course is not long enough.
Course is different each time.
Total seat time limited
No actual practice lap
Road and weather conditions can be crucial
Only 4 runs to get it right
Too many turns or elements too close together
Very little margin for error

Track vs Autocross (is one harder than the other? Really?)
They are just at different ends of high performance driving.
Autocross forces you to think quickly and perform precisely at the right time on a course that is unfamiliar. You need to make enough adjustment, run to run to minimize errors and be as clean as possible. Much of that can be trained and helped by studying/walking the course or watching others drive.

If that wasn't bad enough then try Rallycross-
You can get 8 runs and count 6 for a combined time. You have little room for big errors and need to be consistent each time while driving on ever changing conditions from run to run. Minimize loss of traction while looking for the best driving line.

 

In addition to all that...... Sometimes you are focused and on top of it. Those times feel great! Then there are those other times when the focus is ... elusive.

Which, come to think of it, is one of the nice things about autocross vs track. If you lose focus or control in an autocross, you hit a cone or spin. Track speeds are less forgiving. At best, you go off into the weeds. At worst, you go into a wall.

 

Amen!