So does Mike Bavaro at BodyMotion, the guys at our sister shop Precision…What are you trying to say? There are no good shops in OH?
Back to the topic...

 

Onasled,

I hope you are not confusing me with Micahbones. AFAIK he does not sell cages or roll bars. See my next post for my perspective.

regards

Grant "Bones" Barclay

 

Consider yourself the minority if you "Do it ALL"

There is Helix in Phily ....Then skip thru the Midwest .....You can hardly get a car prepped at 1 shop, it is a feat !!!! I've had bolt-ons from at least 4 vendors ,,,,

So, there are a minority of prepped cars around these parts

 

Well said Greg, adopting BMWCR rules would be ideal so the spec minis could race in Kp or Jp while we could have the radical Minis in D-Modified. That would keep things interested as well as providing more race options for the guys & girls that decide to build their race Mini. Racing in events with multiple classes always adds excitement since the faster classes soon start lapping slower cars.
It makes it more interesting for the spectators as well.
Steve

 

Hello Phil,
Glad to here you will racing at Summit Point, see you there!
Steve

 

Yes, I was confused! Even the location assured me it was you...
A plug for Built-By-Bones is needed here from me. I had posted long ago that I felt that this company was one of the best I've dealt with and their product is top notch. My roll bar has moved onto another well deserved Mini owner who I'm sure will some day retire it for a full cage himself. It went in his 'Cooper' as easily as it did in my 'S'.
Product review = out'a three ...

 

I thought I would stay out of this thread and just leave things be. But there are some very wrong perceptions of this series.

A little personal history.
I have been involved in racing in various forms for almost 25 years. My experience has ranged from being a floor sweeping "go-fer" for BMW South Africa, to building F1 monocoques for Leyton House March, race engineering Indy Cars, navigating and test driving rally and hill climb cars. My driving experience ranges from shifter karts, through Formula Continentals/F2000's, to testing Indy cars.

I am currently the Time Trial Steward for the CO SCCA region. I own a company that builds and prepares race vehicles. We also build cages and roll bars.

My history with the NAMCCRS

I went to the Las Vegas race where we practiced and qualified. We never made the race due to electrical gremlins. I had some serious issues with the series then, but given that it is a fledgling series that is understandable.

I went to St Louis hoping to see these problems corrected. Unfortunately my experience in St Louis was worse, to the point I packed up and headed home on Sunday morning. I will not be attending another NAMCCRS event.

Issues I have a problem with

- tech. There is no such thing for race cars. I was told in Las Vegas that the racers are responsible for teching their own cars. What? . Name one other respected series where this is common practice. None.

- safety. Although the rules are somewhat loosely written (I have no problem with that) - they appear to be for show only. The safety requirements (which are good common sense items) are not even checked. Even the Colorado Hillclimb Association (a redneck organization if I ever saw one) religiously checks that the drivers have a legal helmet, driving suit, shoes, safety gear etc.

- rules. what good are the rules if they are never enforced? It was admirable that Randy made the race (although I have a problem with the waivers) but was that car really a class 3 car? Maybe it should have been in the correct class, but that would have meant two WebbMotorsports drivers competing against each other. I am happy that Walen beat an obviously illegal car.

- waivers. What other respected sanctioning body allows competitors to sign waivers and race? Especially when dealing with a safety item as important as a roll cage? I wonder what the series insurance company would say about that? Is there even such a thing, or is the insurance sanction the same as the DE sanction? I wonder what K&K (Gateway's insurance carrier) would say about such a blatant bending of the rules? I can tell you what the SCCA insurance would say if we ever attempted something at a Time trial event, and that is not even wheel to wheel.

- I know Randy personally, we have co-driven at Nationals together. But I must take issue with him on the waivers for this event. I guess I could even understand waivers being allowed in Las Vegas, where there was adequate run off area. But in St Louis there were 3 area's where the run off was limited and a mistake meant the car would end up in the wall, just as Randy himself experienced. I am glad there were no further incidents (Phil W got lucky) but if something had occured in Nascar turns 3 & 4 the results would have been a lot more serious that the beating that the Mule took. To allow a car without a cage to race on a oval based road course shows a serious lack of judgement on the organizers behalf.

- I can sympathise with Phil that the turnout was low, and he was desperate for more race cars on the track, to the point of putting his own car into the field. But allowing Randy to compete shows (to me at least) that Phil's desire to have more cars trumped any safety concerns for drivers. That is very, very wrong. Sometimes the organizer must shelve their own (selfish) concerns and make a decision in the name of safety. That is never easy, I know that personally. I wonder if the same decisions would have been made if Pete Taylor was present at the event? I cannot say for certain, but I doubt it.

- It is sad to see posters on this thread attack people like Onasled, Rpeterson, and others. These guys have actually been on the track in their Mini's. They are genuinely concerned about safety, both their own and that of other drivers. For that they are being derided as "naysayers". And this by people who do not actually race themselves, or attend the events. The only interest these morons have is wanting a Mini Challenge series. Well if a driver gets killed or hurt at Summit Point, because a waiver was signed, just how succesful will the 2007 series be? There will not be a 2007 series if something like that happens.

- This is the USA, good ole my lawyer will sue your lawyer USA. I know that my lawyer could drive an 18 wheeler through the holes in that waiver, just how effective would that waiver be if it ever had to stand up in court? As someone posted, what if the that "cageless, waiver signed" Mini ends up getting T-boned? No amount of side airbags is going help.

- FIA spec for 2007. I have addressed this in other NAMCCS threads but will repeat this here. Phil W's insistance on the 2007 series cars being to FIA spec will kill this flegdling series faster than any of my concerns posted here. I understand the desire to have the cars the same as the Euro-spec cars, but this is totally unrealistic in the USA. The first major difference is that in the UK, Germany, Spain, Australia and South Africa the Mini Challenge series' are directly supported by BMW Mini. That is not going to be the case here in the USA. The dismal exchange rate of the dollar/euro means that the profit margin on Mini's in the USA is very slim. The US car market being the largest in the world also means you cannot raise prices above those of your perceived competition, without hurting sales. BMW USA does not have the budget to support a fully fledged racing series, heck they cannot even pay contingency money timeously. Why on earth would they want to support a series that presently cannot draw more than 5 Mini's to an event?

Take a look at those participants. With the exception of Steve, every other Mini at Gateway was there because the owner/driver is involved in selling aftermarket parts for Mini's. They are hoping that the series provides the exposure they seek to sell more parts. With a move to an FIA spec series in 2007, and the emphasis on "arrive and drive", what is the motivation for those guys to support the series any longer.

Don't get me started on what a spec FIA cage will cost compared to a legal SCCA approved cage. (my personal opinion is that the SCCA cage is actually safer. FIA road race cages do not have the Nascar style door bar requirements) We prepare rally and hillclimb cars. A FIA Group N cage will cost over double what a Rally America legal cage costs. Driver protection is identical in both.

In another post I made the comparison to the Spec Miata series, and it has been addressed here. The new for 2006 Mazda Cup cars (the MX5's not the Miata's) can be prepared for $40K including the cost of the car (see this months Sportscar), the cars are identical, driver safety is paramount (take a look at the drivers door bars) and there were almost 20 cars at the first event. The series is not directly funded by Mazda, but parts and contingency are available through the usual MAZDASPEED program. Please note this is not a stand alone series either, it is run under SCCA sanction. Yup, that means SCCA safety regulations apply, so do driver licencing requirements, and safety inspections, and tech inspections, and avenues of protest.

I wish Phil and Noree every success with this series, but you need to get the priorities correct. In most cases, priority number one is safety, ignore that at your own peril.

Grant "Bones" Barclay

 

The current fast D-Mod cars are just a snick quicker than the fast JP cars. You can check the time sheets. They are available at: http://bmwccaclubracing.com/events/events.aspx
Which lends itself nicely to my point of how you measure yourself as a driver. To draw racers, get a rules package.

 

I'm happy you spoke up Grant, thanks for doing so.

 

"Take a look at those participants. With the exception of Steve, every other Mini at Gateway was there because the owner/driver is involved in selling aftermarket parts for Mini's. They are hoping that the series provides the exposure they seek to sell more parts. With a move to an FIA spec series in 2007, and the emphasis on "arrive and drive", what is the motivation for those guys to support the series any longer."

There is none. And that is fine. You want drivers not tuners because there is more of them. It’s a numbers game. The most popular series going at the grassroots level are spec series and/or ones with a tight rules package. Just look at BMWCR and you will see how large the fields are for stock and prepared and how small they are for modified. Go to:
http://www.clubracingstats.org/login.php
username:bmwcr
password: bmwcr123

 

It is also very easy to criticize, a lot harder to impliment ideas. If I were asked for suggestions here is what I would offer.

Forget about an FIA spec series. There are too many sanctioning bodies and avenues to go racing in the USA. None of us are interested in racing against Euro-spec cars. We are interested in racing against other Mini's. We are also interested in being able to use our Mini's in more than just the NAMCCRS.

Make it easy to race in as many series as possible.

Get rid of the classes for classic Mini's. Las Vegas did draw some racers, but none at Sebring or Gateway.

Class C - adopt SCCA SSC rules. There is already a core of SSC Mini's out there. The car is essentially identical to a showroom stock car with only safety gear added. I don't like the restrictor currently required in SSC, but approach existing SSC racers and ask them if they would want to run with the restrictor or not.

Class B - adopt BMWCCA rules for J Prepared. With some thought you could have a J-Prepared/John Cooper Works class. More HP and prep than Class C, but still with limitations. Dyno each car the day before the event, enforce the HP limits. Any car over the limit could easily carry ballast for that event, but must meet the HP limit for the following event.

Class A - adopt BMWCCA rules for D-Mod. This is essentially the unlimited class, run what you brung, but still with vigorous safety requirements.

With the classing structure like that, it still allows for the unlimited Mini's, it still has a Cooper Works Class, and hopefully Class C would attract those SCCA SSC owners/drivers.

I really like the BMWCCA 13/13 rule and would ensure that was part of the rules package. If you are involved in contact you are on probation for 13 months, if you involved in contact while on probation then you are suspended. There is a lot less of the "red mist" in the BMW racing events I have attended, than in similar SCCA "win at all costs" events.

Driver safety needs to be priority number one.

Grant "Bones" Barclay

 

Coincidentally, just posted by Gabe on Motoringfile

 

Dave,

I am going to play Devils advocate here, even though I have been suggesting this is a good move.

The problem with now having a SSC class is that those cars are going to be fully SCCA legal cars right down to the safety equipment. This will serve to show the obvious lack of safety gear in the other cars competing in the series. I also wonder how experienced W2W SCCA racers will react to Phil letting anyone run without a cage.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a good idea which hopefully will generate more interest and competition in the series. I just hope Phil and Pete are ready to deal with racers who will not tolerate a lax approach to the rules. Visit impound at an SCCA divisional or national event if you don't understand what I mean.

A good move, and best of luck to the racers and organizers.

Grant "Bones" Barclay

 

Well, I don't see how these are new classes; last time I looked (last week?), groups 1 and 6 were already classes. So I'm confused as to how these are "new". Regardless of whether these are new or not, the statement about safety equipment looks to apply to ALL classes, so a rollbar, fire extinguisher, battery cut-off switch and window net are required for all cars.

I'm using this page as a reference.

 

That might just be the smallest set of rules for racing in 2006 as I have ever seen. And that is not a good thing because it does not attract racers. See post #132.

 

Totally agree with that type of class structure, why reinvent the wheel?
Steve

 

After racing my Mini in BMWCR events for the first year in the Texas region in JP, I was competitive in the class, at least with the guys down south. All it took was qualifying on pole in class at TWS and my JP days were over. All of a sudden they deemed the undesized pully illegal while the previous year every Cooper S raced with a smaller pulley to barely be competitive in the JP class. My car in those days was still street legal, ghad to race seats, head lights and A/C.
Since then, D-Mod is the only way the Mini can be competitive. Obviously my car is much changed at present trim. My car qualified on pole at Roebling last December & third on grid out of 28 cars. At VIR, 2nd in class, 9th overall out of 45 cars.
We still have further improvements to develop and I believe we will be running with the top[ DM cars. Yes there are some very good drivers out there and some very fast JP cars as well. But in racing you will always see a slower class car that is extremely well driven finish ahead of faster class cars.
As for the spec Mini fitting into KP or JP, my opinion would be to allow regular Cooper S's in KP (no pulley changes) and the Works or spec racer in JP (with pulleys allowed). Otherwise they will not be competitive.
I constantly read the results at all tracks to see what times the podium finishers are posting
Until more Minis join BMWCR it will be hard to convince the committee to revise the rules. If you go back and look 2004 & 2005 results, you will see thst all the JP cars struggled and finished mid to low in the field. Two drivers sold there cars, Andy Ball (Ibelieve ) and Roger Riggs because they felt it was hopeless.
So BMWCR should try to attract more Minis by reclassifying them to were good drivers could be competitive.
My Thoughts,
Steve

 

I agree however I think the premise of the NAMCCRS was to be similar to the one contested in Brittan. I say this because:
“Championship Winner: MINI Challenge UK and Phil Wicks Racing have an agreement the winner of the North American Mini Cooper Championship Race Series will be invited to race in an official MINI UK Challenge race at Donnington Park in England, scheduled for October 21 and 22 – all expenses paid with racecar provided. The winner of the UK championship will come to the US and participate in a Phil Wicks Racing event at Buttonwillow Raceway on October 30.”

The UK Mini Challenge is a drivers rather than tuners series and this formula seems to draw the most participants worldwide. Practically no one attends amateur road racing in America except the drivers and crew. Sanctioning bodies recognize this and thus try to make the racing appealing to the drivers. It then becomes about driver skill both on and off (setup) the track. Those with racing smarts, for instance, don’t care the Madness car beat the Webb car because they recognize that the difference could solely be attributable to the car and not the driver. Who knows because the rules are so wide open? And I think Wick recognized this from the beginning and tried to make it work. But this is not Europe. So if Mini USA is not backing this thing I suggest that Wick “cuts bait” and adopts the BMWCR rules and point system.

 

It will be interesting to see how this "series" is doing in 12 months. I do not think it could ever support more than 2 classes.

It is sad to see safety has take a back seat to reason to field more "race" cars. I think that speaks volumes as to the work that lays ahead.

If you race you should wear a HANS.

 

because you are right: it isn't competitive against the E30s. (John Paton is our driver, not me.) Classes are all set on published power to weight. Smart racers choose and build their car around the rules. And what BMW driver wants to see a Mini of all things beat them? They don't so the rules won't get rewritten any time soon.
But I think the main reason Mini's aren't competitive in JP is because it is not as fully developed as the E30s. We should, though, be enjoying a 15 year advantage in suspension!
But I still think a Mini Challenge spec series is the way to go. Then you have two places to contest your skill.

 

What is safe for the road is already a joke (the car accident is the largest killer in the US, as I recall).
What is it about the Mini that makes the driver feel he and his car can participate in wheel to wheel track racing and waive the safety and training standards and tech inspection rigors that are mandatory for volkswagons, miatias, mazdas, hondas, etc. in SCCA, for example?

what if Randy's brakes had failed had he been drafting another car into that hot turn, setting up a pass on the exit?

the "what if" test is the reason for the safety equip without exception.

 

Not true.

1. Heart Disease is number one killer.
2. Safety equip was born not from "what if's",but from actual deaths. Every single safety piece, from the extinguisher, cage, hans to you name it, came about from somone being burned, crushed, broken neck, among other things.

 

gottta love google; accidents are low on the list.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in667998.shtml

and this:

http://www.healingdaily.com/Doctors-...-in-the-US.htm

hi tony/ how is the header coating going?

 

Welcome back John! Nice find.

 

Since we added to this thread what Wick's could do to make his series more appealing and wrote about BMWCR rules, I should note that there is movement afoot to tighten up the prepared rules on engines modifications and open them up on suspension modifications. And I think that’s a good thing.