But unless you are racing at Summit how about wait and call after the Mini Meet. Phil is a little busy right now and his computer crashed. But not to worry, it has a cage.

 

Onasled is mean :impatient

Cmon man, give it a rest. You'll ruin it for the rest of us. Everyone here knows the importance of safety. Let the St. Louis incident slide, hold on to your "what if's", and let Phil and the boys, along with the non jeerers, grow this series.

Better yet, get your car to WV, and show everyone how safe it is, and how you think their cars should be, then race it.

You have been very pessimistic of this series right from the start. Stop trying to be goody goody and start supporting it.

 

I want the series to suceed very much. However, with its current state of requirements, or lack of, I very much side with Greg and Rich, and others (track rats) who have PM'd me; but wish not to get involved in this discussion.

I'm not sure why NASA does not recognize a Phil Wicks racing license, but it might be due to the safety concerns expressed here...

Nuzzo is in on the action now?! Wow, that would be great news.

 

Maybe I just don't have the personality for these forums.
I bring up what I think is a hugely important issue and am touted as"silly", a "jeerer and "taking potshots from the safety of my keyboard". I guess that's OK as long as this subject has been brought out into the open and is being discussed. If in fact the Wicks racing series gets serious in enforcing the same safety rules that even NASA does, then I will feel fine about taking the heat here for speaking openly without the fear that I might offend some here. The fact is that I have received numerous PMs from others that feel the same way I do but prefer not to get into the line of fire. I thank them for showing their support, even though privately.

Camel, sorry, but I find you post to be quite annoying and somewhat ignorant. This is a more serious issue then your post reflects

Jerry, I asked the question because we are in fact considering prepping a car for the Shenandoah event for a friend. It would be nice if you could contact Phil and report here what the answer is. You might find that it will do what you are looking for, and that's to bring in more quality participants with sponsorship funding.
Thanks
Greg V


PS: As I recall we had four deaths last year and that's just in my area. Two in DEs, one in a smaller club race and one in BMWCCA.
I DO take this very seriously, ....... these people all left wives and children behind. They never thought that it could happen to them, especially the ones in the DEs.

 

Tony,
Thank you for speaking up. (Just to note Tony was not someone who PMed me).
I too would be very happy to see the Wicks racing grow and be successful. That is why I was so blown away with Randy's response here as it made me feel like it could not with that kind of attitude toward safety.
I'd be more then happy to do what I could to help this series grow, but would first need to know that it was being run in a responsible way.

 

If safety was really the number one "end all and be all" issue then we should all be running full cages and HANS devices in our street cars. Street driving is extremely dangerous, with over 40 thousand deaths per year in the United States alone. I do not know the data, but my guess is that street driving is statistically much more dangerous in terms of death and injury per mile traveled than track driving. We should really be afraid of the distracted SUV driver speeding while talking on the cell phone drinking his Starbucks latte and inserting a CD into the 10-disk changer, not our fellow MINI competitors out on a clean racetrack with corner workers, one-way traffic, tire walls, and no traffic lights or stop signs!

I really do not understand the big deal about racing without a cage when both parties sign a release waiver. This is stating the obvious...but a roll cage protects the driver, not anyone else driving in the same event.

 

No, ...without a cage, window net, fire suppression system or cut-off switch. Yes, the first two may not effect anyone but the driver, but there are in fact responsibilities to corner workers with the later two.
Again, how cavalier to claim that these safety items are not really necessary when in fact every reputable racing club demands them.
I guess all those $600 role bars you sold were just 'snake oil' then....

Hey, what can I say. If the owneres of this series are OK with someone getting hit in the head with track shrapnal because they had no window net, then that's their perogitive.



I'm just not sure where the argument, or maybe the disagreement is here . It seems that the ones that say that I'm being silly for my concern over safety always seem to end their post with a disclaimer that they seem to agree that safety is in fact important. Are you afraid that this series will fall apart if the proper safety requirements were enforced?

 

Greg, I'm sorry if you're annoyed at my post. I do realise how important safety is, personally I would never race without a cage. Both your side and siddartha's side have very valid points, and I definitely see where both of you are coming from.

I'm trying not to take sides, but it does look to me that you were waiting for the oppurtunity to pounce on them, and bust their *****, hence my post.

Again... I'm sure everyone agrees that safety does come first in racing, but the fact that you are more sensitive to it then some of us, doesnt mean you can start asking where the feds at.

 

We are all MINI owners who appreciate racing and like to drive our cars on the track, so I just want to say that I see this as a friendly debate that serves to educate those who read this. Too often these forums turn into personal defensive back-and-forth pissing contests.

Having said that...many activities in life involve a risk/benefit decision. For example, I am aware that I am it's 10-15 times more dangerous (in terms or death and injury) for me to ride my bicycle to work than to drive, yet I do it anyway because I believe that the benefits outweigh the risks.

Personally I do not have a problem with a competitor with track experience in a new, safe street car that has been tech. inspected going out and racing without a roll cage, fire extinguisher, and cut-off switch because I believe that those features serve to protect the driver much more so than those racing against him/her. I believe that growing the series and increasing the number of MINIS out there racing is a bigger concern...

 

I wish I could wave a wand and make everyone happy, but that's never gonna happen.

Who else is trying to start a MINI series from scratch? If Phil had a gazillion bux, 5 years experience running this series and a big name sponsor, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Of course safety is important. We're working on the problems. It takes time and money. We could use your help. It sounds like some of you guys would rather be part of the problem than part of the solution; would rather PM each other and whine than PM me and step up. What more can I say? Let's get on with it.

 

Greg, I agree with you 100%...I was very upset when I received the news of Dave McPhearson's death during a BMWCCA club race last fall. This occured before I raced at Roebling Road last December. At that point I purchased a Hans device, a week later it was announced that neck restraints would be mandatory in 2006 for BMWCCA. We think & hope that something like that could not happen in club racing but the reality is that it can happen. I made a point to express my sympathies to "Tuss" McPhearson at my last race at VIR, I never had the chance to meet her husband but knew he was a very good driver.
Therefore, safety requirements are required for our own good which is why all serious race organizations have tech inspections to see if all cars meet the requirements stated in the rules. If not met, you don't race.
Racing is fun, not trying to put a damper on anything just hope all interested in racing realize that waivers do nothing to protect anyone in the event of an unforseen incident, especiially the spouse of an injured racer.
Read the rules, do what you have to do and let's race.
Sincerely,
Steve

 

Wheel to Wheel racing is inherently risky, and because of this risk sanctioning bodies require a level of safety for the competitors. Why? They want you to walk home after and they don't want to be sued. If W2W was safe, none of this equipment would be required, we all could get on the track, race with each other, bump, hit and push the other car off the track and at the end of the day walk away. But that's only a dream.

There are lots of avenues in motorsports where you don't need safety equipment. Autocross, lower speeds, cars tend to spin out and not roll. Safety is maintained by only letting one car at a time go out. Time Trials, faster speeds on a track with other drivers, but very strict rules about passing. No body contact, wheels off track and timing for session doesn't count.

W2W racing is much more different than Time Trials (TT), or canyon driving. That car behind you wants by and there is a wee bit of space to pass and will pass. First time drivers that move up from TT to W2W will tell you there's more to it than driving fast.

The safety gear, correctly stated, is for the protection of the driver not the other competitors, or is it. Car A, signs a waiver, no cage. Car B has a full cage. Car A spins in front of B and is t-boned. The side of Car A car caves in and now becomes intertwined with Car B. Both cars are now locked together. Because Car A has no fire suppression it catches fire but car B is stuck and becomes engulfed as well. Far fetched story but it can happen. If Car A had a cage, it still would have been t-boned, but the cars more then likely would have bounced off each other, body panels bent, but Car B wouldn't be inside of Car A.

I personally believe in all the safety gear. It's also part of the cost to go racing. But cars without the gear have a competitive advantage: lower weight. Two stock MINI's: one with safety equipment and one without. The MINI without safety equipment is weighing less and gaining an advantage. Now is that fair?

Giving waivers for suspension parts, engine parts that are not spec would make sense. But safety never should be compromised.

 

Guys, I'm a huge MINI fan, I suppose like all of us. I'm really excited about this series, believe me! I have a history with Randy Webb, and it hurts to disagree with the man that I truly care about... but I do, because I care about him, and I don't want to see anyone get injured, maimed or even die.

I understand the need for volunteers, but what I don't understand is why we didn't hear about this need when it should have been first perceived or even realized. NAM is a great forum to share such a request...

It would seem that if this series wishes to reach the levels of prestige and respect of the likes of BMWCCA and NASA, it should begin by acting in a way fitting of such...

The ends rarely justify the means in civil society, and they certainly shouldn't here, especially given what's at stake. Grassroots efforts to me have always been ones driven by passion and a professionalism (think standards) to do things right. We all want to see that, and for some of us, such conviction will be mandatory, and never worthy of compromise. Let's get through these growing-pain days, and start by raising the bar with regards to saftey requirements.

It is readily aparent to some of us now that our "whining" is a necessity in getting this topic addressed. You want our support... you want volunteers, then show us that you are worthy of it by setting priorities properly.

Guys, I've never been this vociferous on NAM, but I'm doing so here because I feel obligated. I also do so on behalf of those who contacted me who are not only upset with this situation, but on top of that, offended and disturbed by the subsequent defensive responses...

My feeling is that this rift needs to be addressed because this series will stand a much better chance of success if we agree and are united. For those of you not wanting to participate in this conversation, please reconsider as I really don't want to anymore...

 

Jerry, I'm just not sure why this thread is so difficult for you to deal with. I am assuming that since you are a regional director this means that you are on the board of directors for the Phil Wicks program.
The magic wand is just not needed here. This Mini series in no way needs to be started from scratch, maybe this is the problem. Your post here seems to hint that if the Wicks series enforced the same safety regulations that every other race program strictly enforces that it would fail. I believe that now is the time to fix this thinking. Now is the time to say "if you don't pass tech, you don't race".
Starting from scratch is a really poor way to do this. I'm not sure why you guys have just not adopted rules from another club, SCCA, BMWCCA, NASA. Bingo, there you go, now onto actually getting this program off it's feet and up and running. Where is Phil? Not sure why he is not here answering questions being that it seems that 99% of his participants are from NAM.
Where are the rules in the Wicks program? Is there a rule 13? There should be in this kind of racing and it certainly would help bring those in that are worried that their cars will be destroyed.
I find it a bit ridiculous that you call our concerns here "Whining" It's a really poor response from someone who is a regional director.
You say "Lets go on with it" So, it does seem that giving wavers is still in the Wicks future....? Being that you feel you need a magic wand it tells me that there are still those out there that would be unhappy if you enforced the safety rules. Are there that many that actually race without the proper safety equipment that would not install it if they had to race?

 

6 in unlimited ... NICE
I would guess? 4 or so in Group 4
? 3 in Group 3
? Any in Group 1 or 2 ?

WOW ....Looking better everyday !!!

 

what? How then do you measure yourself against other racers, by height?

It has been my experience from over a decade of fielding cars in both PCA Club Racing and BMWCR that the GT or Modified classes that tend to have the smallest fields, lesser drivers, and bigger budgets. I know many of these racers and their idea is to buy HP so they can pass people on the straights rather than learn how to brake and turn. Just look at the class sizes and walk through the paddock and inspect tow vehicles and crew. You might be shocked!

If this series to be successful, it has to be a spec series. Spec tires, along with limited modifications to the engine, suspension, brakes, aero, etc. That is the recipe for success in Europe and here.

The Unlimited class is nonsensical. Save it for Pinks.

 

Well,

With no SPEC series success, these MINI racers have HAD TO ADD HP to be competetive in ANY race series they compete in

Once a SPEC Class has a following and turnout picks up, your statement may be true

 

A consistent rules package is what brings racers to a series. It's not the other way around as you are suggesting. The Wick's bunch realizes my point and is trying to rectify the situation. Just ask Phil about the debacle that is the AMA.

Racing in any class that is Unlimited, except Moto GP because it is a testing ground for the manufacturers, is unsatisfying because it is an exercise in futility.

Also, are you suggesting HP is the answer to winning at the track? I would counter with the notion that the driver, tires, suspension, and brakes all trump HP. I think the Mini is not successful in JP because it is too expensive and race parts have not been developed for it.

 

Though your points are somewhat valid, I personally have no interest in "spec". I know spec series are usually successful, but they are not for everyone. I undersatnd what Phil (red fury) is saying and I do agree with that thinking.
I like that Wicks has chosen to offer different classes to race in, I just don't agree with the vagness in which they are limited.
Talk about adopting rules, I would think that adopting the very well thought out BMWCCA rules would be a huge benefit to Wicks. You already have four classes specked out in those rules, stock, prepared, modified and super modified. All the rules and guidelines are there, why not just use those. How great would this be that all Minis that are legal for BMWCCA also have a place in Wick, and even more importantly visa versa.
Open and modified classes are great for racing as they are a great place for R&D. If there are some that can afford the time and money to build a modified car then that's great.


In SCCA it was the GT-1 cars that brought spectators to the fence, not a spec miata race. I for one hate that our racing is becoming so "Spec". Who would rather watch a bunch of monotone cloned Minis race over some screaming tube framed radical Minis? Not me...

 

Not sure where this comes from. There is an abundance of "Race only" parts available to the Mini. I think the only lacking area here would be body parts. What makes the Mini S a poor choice in BMWCCA are the penalties it is assessed for having a supercharger.

 

It's definitional. The older M series cars have about 15 years of development behind them. Porsche's are something like 30 years. The Mini is simply too new; the learning curve is still steep, i.e, we are still figuring out what works and what doesn't.

 

Isn't Wick's trying to develop a series? The larger fields come from spec series, here and abroad. I have no isuue what so ever if someone wants to build an Unlimited car and race it. My only point is how do you measure yourself against other racers? By height?
And when boiled down, challenging yourself is the point of racing. And that plays for the manufactures as well. Wick’s knows this from his experience from the AMA.

 

dmh,

You seem like a bright guy .... Maybe you should just attend one of these events, as I have, In my daily grocery getter

You would learn a few things, such as:

1. 99% of the people that attend are not seasoned racers, just MINI owners
2. Phil Wicks Driving Academy is a start up driving school, a small outfit, not a lot of regulation, inspectors, offiicals, etc ....
3. There is a lack of prepped MINI race cars in the USA, especially East Coast
4. Most of the racers are MINI Shop Owners/Employees: Webb, Waylen, Brian
5. There are ? maybe 3 or 4 places in the entire USA to get your MINI fully race prepped when you buy it, most of us just keep "adding" mods as we go and may end up with a race prepped MINI, but NOT Spec, we ALL differ

NASA has a Spec MINI series .... Phil Wicks doesn't
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/MINI-Challenge.pdf

 

To do any start up effectively, money is required. And Mini USA doesn't seem to be behind this like Mazda is with the Spec Miata series. I agree with onasled that Wick's should have adapted the BMWCR rules as a start. But he didn't.
Speaking of race prep shops (for the Mini) in just my local area, I count 5!

 

Here is how it usually goes with these "shops" :

Do you install cages ? .... NO
Do you corner balance and align? .... NO, go somewhere else
Do you have and install camber plates and control arms? ... MAYBE