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So I have a 2013 R60 JCW automatic. I like the sound in videos in this thread of 2nd cat and resonator removed. This video clips are in sport mode. If NOT in sport mode will it be quieter or less poping, my wife wants quiet?
Second question, understand this has no affect on gas mileage or HP, what do I need to do to improve MPG or HP?
Thanks
i have no 2nd cat and resonator and its definitely loud with sport mode on, without sport mode its a lot less noisy. i love the noise but sometimes when i want to listen to some music i take it out of sport mode. i also have a catless downpipe, not sure how much that added to the sound.
Local shop removed the cat and resonator and welded a pipe in place for $85. Not a big difference in sound but I now hear the pop and gurgle I had in the R56 JCW and like it. Not in sport mode not much difference and no pop or gurgle. Glad I did it.
Just to clarify, are these the 2nd cat and resonator? To get the sound without drone, I'll have to remove them and then straight pipe them? (circled in the picture.) which is the 2nd cat, which is the resonator?
Oh and I have a Catless Downpipe, would removing the 2nd cat and resonator give me drones?
Just to clarify, are these the 2nd cat and resonator? To get the sound without drone, I'll have to remove them and then straight pipe them? (circled in the picture.) which is the 2nd cat, which is the resonator?
Oh and I have a Catless Downpipe, would removing the 2nd cat and resonator give me drones?
thanks
Smaller right one is the second cat. Longer cylindrical one is the resonator. If you have the stock rear muffler, you can remove both. If you plan to remove the rear muffler or use a sportier one, I will suggest keeping resonator. That should be just a straight pipe with baffling around it.
Smaller right one is the second cat. Longer cylindrical one is the resonator. If you have the stock rear muffler, you can remove both. If you plan to remove the rear muffler or use a sportier one, I will suggest keeping resonator. That should be just a straight pipe with baffling around it.
Thanks, I plan to use the stock S rear muffler. Right now I just have a catless downpipe and I think it sounds a little raspy. Would removing the cat and resonator make the sound similar to JCW exhausts?
I dont think I have seen videos of catless dp + 2nd cat and resonator delete? (stock rear muffler) Can anyone chime in on this setup?
Thanks, I plan to use the stock S rear muffler. Right now I just have a catless downpipe and I think it sounds a little raspy. Would removing the cat and resonator make the sound similar to JCW exhausts?
I dont think I have seen videos of catless dp + 2nd cat and resonator delete? (stock rear muffler) Can anyone chime in on this setup?
Thanks again
As far as I know, JCW exhaust has the DP, second cat and resonator. The sound difference comes from larger (compressor) turbo, slightly different exhaust manifold and slightly smaller rear muffler. If you think you don't like the sound with your current setup (ie, no dp), do not remove either the second cat or resonator. They will make it louder. If you want a louder, more racy exhaust, you can get rid of the second cat. That should give you slightly louder sound. In the end, every sound wave is reduced by the rear muffler. The ones before will give just slight changes.
I agree with all except #3. My dealer and the MINI mechanics both have informed me that the purpose of the Resonator is to reduce drone. Therefore removing it will in fact increase drone at highway speed. I have a Borla S exhaust (axle back) on my R60S and haven't removed the 2nd cat and resonator yet. The exhaust note is louder than stock due to the deeper tone. I want to have second cat removed, but I don't want the resonator removed because it will lead to increased drone at highway speed.
Originally Posted by Theta
Let me clear a few things up for the OP.
I've had nearly a dozen different exhausts/custom builds between my two R60s over the years, and here's what you need to know.
1) Removing the "second cat" has no impact on the US emissions code, nor will it cause any issues with inspection, etc. This was placed there for EU clean air standards. There is one heck of a restriction from this piece, as I've shown before. The main catalytic converter is a 400-cell, which is more than sufficient for not only the law, but for keeping pollutants out of the air.
2) Removing the resonator is generally done at the same time due to the pipes being so close together. It's a straight-through perf core, so nothing major in blocking sound.
3) Removing the resonator does not introduce any drone into the system, but it does increase the loudness of the system at the tailpipes.
4) If you remove the rear muffler, you will have amazing amounts of drone at 2800-3100 rpm.
5) There is no warranty issue with removing these pieces other than losing the warranty on your stainless exhaust system. Anything AFTER the cut will no longer be covered. The drivetrain and other warranties are unaffected. This is the law, and it's not up to a SM's interpretation.
6) For a simple tune without any mods (the exhaust mod is more for sound on the R60), I would suggest the NM tune. It's $500 out the door, and offers the most bang-for-the-buck on an otherwise stock R60S.
Feel free to ask any other questions, and I'll be happy to answer them.
I agree with all except #3. My dealer and the MINI mechanics both have informed me that the purpose of the Resonator is to reduce drone. Therefore removing it will in fact increase drone at highway speed. I have a Borla S exhaust (axle back) on my R60S and haven't removed the 2nd cat and resonator yet. The exhaust note is louder than stock due to the deeper tone. I want to have second cat removed, but I don't want the resonator removed because it will lead to increased drone at highway speed.
Since they're essentially the same exhausts(on the front), I think I can chime here: I have removed both the second cat and resonator on my 2010 R56 (N18 engine, same as R60). I have also replaced the rear muffler with a Varex. No drone at all.
From experience I can say that the drone is associated to the quality of your mufflers. If you don't have one, you need resonators. If you have a low key one, you need resonators. Other than that, it's just a perforated straight pipe that softens the sound a bit. I will bet that you won't have any drone at all with the Borla as well
Took it to a shop and the didn't want to touch it. Do you know how much pipe is needed to replace the resonator and 2nd Cat? I want to order to stainless steel pipe but no sure how much I'll need. Thx for the feedback
Originally Posted by eg3
Since they're essentially the same exhausts(on the front), I think I can chime here: I have removed both the second cat and resonator on my 2010 R56 (N18 engine, same as R60). I have also replaced the rear muffler with a Varex. No drone at all. From experience I can say that the drone is associated to the quality of your mufflers. If you don't have one, you need resonators. If you have a low key one, you need resonators. Other than that, it's just a perforated straight pipe that softens the sound a bit. I will bet that you won't have any drone at all with the Borla as well
Took it to a shop and the didn't want to touch it. Do you know how much pipe is needed to replace the resonator and 2nd Cat? I want to order to stainless steel pipe but no sure how much I'll need. Thx for the feedback
I'll go to the exhaust shop on Tuesday. I'll ask him to measure it but you will need someone to do the job. Exhaust work is not that easy. You will need to cut and weld stainless steel pipes..
Agreed. Many shops in upstate NY (snow country) use galvanized steel, which is rubbish. They use it because it will rust out needing to be replaced. My biggest concern is the 2nd Cat. I'm fine with the resonator...my Mrs. made a comment the other day that my exhaust was loud. Not to me is...but with the Akropovic DP going in this week that might put her over the edge. I was wondering if there is a after market piece I can buy to go from the DP to the Borla. That would be ideal but if u find out how much pipe to replace the Res and 2nd Cat greatly appreciated.
Originally Posted by eg3
I'll go to the exhaust shop on Tuesday. I'll ask him to measure it but you will need someone to do the job. Exhaust work is not that easy. You will need to cut and weld stainless steel pipes..
Wife noise > car noise. If she already says it's loud, do not remove the second cat. As I said before, resonator is only there to "tune" the sound, not really make it quieter. I say get the downpipe first, check with your wife and then think about doing something else.
Understood. Will leaving the 2nd Cat significantly diminish my potential power gains? Plan on adding FMIC and Manic Stage II tune. I don't mind giving up 2HP for a less louder exhaust system. Thx for ur feedback btw, much appreciated.
Originally Posted by eg3
Wife noise > car noise. If she already says it's loud, do not remove the second cat. As I said before, resonator is only there to "tune" the sound, not really make it quieter. I say get the downpipe first, check with your wife and then think about doing something else.
No there isn't a significant gain or loss on anything after downpipe. Eve if you do a straight through pipe, you wouldn't gain more than 10-15 hp. It's all about sound.
No there isn't a significant gain or loss on anything after downpipe. Eve if you do a straight through pipe, you wouldn't gain more than 10-15 hp. It's all about sound.
i put a milltek downpipe back system on my all4 and it made a HUGE difference
before/after rollins with another all4 ...
before we were axle to axle ...
after i picked up 5 car lengths
conditions of rollin were 3rd gear, 1500 to 4500 rpm ...
the other guy would go no faster ... not a "racer" so that is all i could get him to do
did rollons to take driver skill out of the test, no standing start and no shifting
i put a milltek downpipe back system on my all4 and it made a HUGE difference
before/after rollins with another all4 ...
before we were axle to axle ...
after i picked up 5 car lengths
conditions of rollin were 3rd gear, 1500 to 4500 rpm ...
the other guy would go no faster ... not a "racer" so that is all i could get him to do
did rollons to take driver skill out of the test, no standing start and no shifting
So you're saying that on the 3rd gear, from 1500-4500 rpms (where turbo really kicks in only after 2200-2500), you gained 5 car lengths? That is with only changing downpipe back where the only real obstacle is the 2nd cat? (resonator is straight through, rear muffler is too far away to build any real back pressure). And you did that in the same day with the same opponent? That is, you changed your exhaust the same day and did the rolls same day? And with the stock downpipe?
Interesting.
On 3rd gear from 1500-4500 rpms, the car would go from around 20 mph to 65 mph. Mini says 50-75 mph takes about 7.2 seconds on 4th. If you ratio the gears (assuming autotranny), same speed range would take 5.3 seconds on the third. That's 25 mph speed difference in 5.3 secs, so 20-65 on 3rd should take about a min 9.5 seconds right? (65-20=45 mph diff). So that's 22 yards difference from the other ALL4 in 9.5 secs.
That nets about 40 hp difference from the other ALL4. That's just from second cat delete and a better flowing rear muffler. So your car is actually around 224 hp from just a downpipe-back exhaust. Maybe you should put it on a dyno to confirm and compare your results.
I too have a downpipe back exhaust which is flat through and a very small and open rear muffler (Varex) now and I don't even feel a big difference.
I have an Akropovic DP and Borla S type axle back exhaust. It's definately much louder than stock. Exhaust tone is very deep...and I still have the 2nd Cat and Res attached. I'm willing to give up a little HP b/c I don't want it too loud. However, I plan on getting a Manic Stage II tune very soon and was wondering if removing the 2nd cat and res would be required. Please let me know what you think. Thx
Originally Posted by eg3
So you're saying that on the 3rd gear, from 1500-4500 rpms (where turbo really kicks in only after 2200-2500), you gained 5 car lengths? That is with only changing downpipe back where the only real obstacle is the 2nd cat? (resonator is straight through, rear muffler is too far away to build any real back pressure). And you did that in the same day with the same opponent? That is, you changed your exhaust the same day and did the rolls same day? And with the stock downpipe?
Interesting.
On 3rd gear from 1500-4500 rpms, the car would go from around 20 mph to 65 mph. Mini says 50-75 mph takes about 7.2 seconds on 4th. If you ratio the gears (assuming autotranny), same speed range would take 5.3 seconds on the third. That's 25 mph speed difference in 5.3 secs, so 20-65 on 3rd should take about a min 9.5 seconds right? (65-20=45 mph diff). So that's 22 yards difference from the other ALL4 in 9.5 secs.
That nets about 40 hp difference from the other ALL4. That's just from second cat delete and a better flowing rear muffler. So your car is actually around 224 hp from just a downpipe-back exhaust. Maybe you should put it on a dyno to confirm and compare your results.
I too have a downpipe back exhaust which is flat through and a very small and open rear muffler (Varex) now and I don't even feel a big difference.
I have an Akropovic DP and Borla S type axle back exhaust. It's definately much louder than stock. Exhaust tone is very deep...and I still have the 2nd Cat and Res attached. I'm willing to give up a little HP b/c I don't want it too loud. However, I plan on getting a Manic Stage II tune very soon and was wondering if removing the 2nd cat and res would be required. Please let me know what you think. Thx
As far as I know, Manic Stage 2 requires intercooler and downpipe. I think it's better if you'd ask them about the second cat being an issue or not. If it's required and you want that tune, you can always remove that cat and add a second resonator. Just make sure to get it a straight through one.
So you're saying that on the 3rd gear, from 1500-4500 rpms (where turbo really kicks in only after 2200-2500), you gained 5 car lengths? That is with only changing downpipe back where the only real obstacle is the 2nd cat? (resonator is straight through, rear muffler is too far away to build any real back pressure). And you did that in the same day with the same opponent? That is, you changed your exhaust the same day and did the rolls same day? And with the stock downpipe?
Interesting.
On 3rd gear from 1500-4500 rpms, the car would go from around 20 mph to 65 mph. Mini says 50-75 mph takes about 7.2 seconds on 4th. If you ratio the gears (assuming autotranny), same speed range would take 5.3 seconds on the third. That's 25 mph speed difference in 5.3 secs, so 20-65 on 3rd should take about a min 9.5 seconds right? (65-20=45 mph diff). So that's 22 yards difference from the other ALL4 in 9.5 secs.
That nets about 40 hp difference from the other ALL4. That's just from second cat delete and a better flowing rear muffler. So your car is actually around 224 hp from just a downpipe-back exhaust. Maybe you should put it on a dyno to confirm and compare your results.
I too have a downpipe back exhaust which is flat through and a very small and open rear muffler (Varex) now and I don't even feel a big difference.
rollons were done same day, milltek install only took 2 hours, including jacking the car onto 4 jackstands for the first time
both cars cms all4s, both with manual transmission and both with 225/45R18 pirelli p7 summer runflats
we had done rollons before in different gears, the other guy was most comfortable in 3rd gear
post milltek install, my car boosts to 9-10 by 1800 rpm (from 1500 rpm rollon), peaking at 16-16.5 between 4000-5500 rpm (via scan gauge2)
the change from the milltek install was immediate and very noticeable, also my fuel mileage went up on the highway at steady speed ... i have gotten a highest of 41.9 mpg but avg 38+ on the highway
The easiest method on the American market is to cut just before and just after the res/cat section, then replace the section with 2.25" stainless 18ga (if available - remember you can always order this before going to a shop that only uses aluminized). The 2.25" slips over nicely and requires only a small welding gap fill (I always use stainless sticks or TIG weld it, but you may be stuck with someone who only does wire-feed or MIG).
Clamps will not work in this case, as the dissimilar size is not standard (ie 2.0" -> 2.25") - it's best to have it welded, anyhow. Clamps that join two dissimilar sizes invariably leak, so even if you could use them, I'd discourage it.
Quick question, is the proper pipe 2.25” inside diameter, or outside diameter?
Yesterday I went to an exhaust shop and removed the resonator from the middle of the car. IT WAS THE WORST SOUND EVER,luckily I was able to go back to the same shop and retrieve the resonator from the garbage that hadn't been collected.I re-installed it and everything is back to normal.
It’s definitely not for everyone, I just had mine done the other day, and with a catless downpipe, it is pretty loud, but I like it! It’s a little raspy at higher rpms but not in a bad way, nice tone to it. But it definitely draws some attention when you put your foot down! Lol.
It made the pops really loud and pronounced too! And with a tune, mine pops like crazy.
it took me a long while to find find someone to do it. For $100 cash, I’m not disappointed, he replaced it from the flex to the muffler with a single piece of pipe.
I've had nearly a dozen different exhausts/custom builds between my two R60s over the years, and here's what you need to know.
1) Removing the "second cat" has no impact on the US emissions code, nor will it cause any issues with inspection, etc. This was placed there for EU clean air standards. There is one heck of a restriction from this piece, as I've shown before. The main catalytic converter is a 400-cell, which is more than sufficient for not only the law, but for keeping pollutants out of the air.
2) Removing the resonator is generally done at the same time due to the pipes being so close together. It's a straight-through perf core, so nothing major in blocking sound.
3) Removing the resonator does not introduce any drone into the system, but it does increase the loudness of the system at the tailpipes.
4) If you remove the rear muffler, you will have amazing amounts of drone at 2800-3100 rpm.
5) There is no warranty issue with removing these pieces other than losing the warranty on your stainless exhaust system. Anything AFTER the cut will no longer be covered. The drivetrain and other warranties are unaffected. This is the law, and it's not up to a SM's interpretation.
6) For a simple tune without any mods (the exhaust mod is more for sound on the R60), I would suggest the NM tune. It's $500 out the door, and offers the most bang-for-the-buck on an otherwise stock R60S.
Feel free to ask any other questions, and I'll be happy to answer them.
For the 2nd cat and resonator delete is there a kit I can buy or is it just a downpipe. And just to be sure you do not need a tune for this modification is that correct.
11-16-2015, 05:46 PM
If she already says it's loud, do not remove the second cat. As I said before, resonator is only there to "tune" the sound, not really make it quieter. I say get the downpipe first, check with your wife and then think about doing something else.
