I had posted in another thread. Didn't mean to hijack the thread, so created a new one:

I have a MCS manual on order. I debated on getting LSD but finally decided against it as I don't track my car and may never use it. So here are the questions

1. If there were no LSD option available would you have had less fun with your MINI

2. Does LSD affect resale value, anyone has experience

3. Why would LSD not offered on auto tranny. Is it just to prevent any chance of fun that you may get with it just because you made the choice of auto tranny. or there is any technical incompatibility reason.

4. What would be a hypothetical limit on LSD price which would have prevented you from choosing the option

 

In Australia the LSD option is an extra $200.

Fitting an after market LSD is probably about $2000.

This makes it a no-brainer for me. Even if you aren't planning to track the car, the bang-for-buck factor is so high on this option, I think it is one of the boxes that everyone should tick.

Sure, I don't see you necessarily regretting fitting the LSD for daily driving, but I think your point about re-sale is a good one, as the next peron who owns your MINI may consider this a desirable option. After all it's only $200 extra - about the price of 3 tanks of gas down here!

 

Even though I wouldn't track my car either, DSC and LSD are two must-have options in my opinion. The MCS handles so much better with these two options, even when merely traversing city streets.

 

LSd is one of those things that if you've never had or driven a car with it then you don't really know what you are missing. If you know how to drive and can take advantage of the LSD then it becomes useful otherwise it isn't really necessary.

I have no idea of how it would affect resale, probably not a whole lot in the long run as there have been quite a few minis built and a lot with LSD, they shouldn't be hard to find.

The only thing I can think of as to why it's not offered on the auto is maybe because of size. Not sure though as I don't have an auto. The powers that be in BMW might also have figured that auto buyers wouldn't be sport minded and therefore not want the LSD as an option so to save money they never developed the LSD to work in an auto package.

I think $500 is about the most I would pay.

 

Aftermarket LSD's usually run around $1000 for the part!!! Plus another $800-$1000 to pull the tranny and install it. $500 for a factory installed unit is a steal.

 

I think LSD for $500 is a steal and agree that it adds to your handling enjoyment at any speed or conditions. My guess as to why it's not offered with automatic is it's not compatible and/or MINI doesn't think many people who order auto will care about it. I think it affects resale in a positive way. When I sold my '06 with LSD I think it was an attraction, I know I wouldn't want to buy one without it. A few months ago, I perused the lots and inventory of on-the-ground cars and found exactly Zero cars ordered by dealers with LSD, although tons of them with extra chrome and other performance features . The dealer found three incoming cars in our region but all were customer orders. If/when I get a new MINI, I reckon I'm going to have to order it to get LSD.

 

Think of it as insurance. You may not need it on an daily,monthly or yearly basis, but when you do, it could make the difference. LSD for $500.00 is a bargain compared to the retrofit and DSC, aka the electronic nanny, is also a deal for the $$. Trading the cost of the extra bling for these two systems may be a wise decision. I look at it this way--when driving this little rocket-- anything that protects me from me is on the list.

 

Absolutely. Shouldn't even be a question, get the LSD

 

Without a doubt - get the LSD now and save money! I missed the chance to modify my order by several days.

 

WOW!!! So much support for LSD. I better call my MA and change order when it is still not gone in production.

It better be worth every cent

 

What exactly does LSD do? Does it transfer power to the wheel with the most grip? If so why isn't that considered traction control? I can see this being useful in the snow and such. Now given that the regular ASC brakes the wheels & cuts engine power when there's slippage, do the two conflict with each other? Because if ASC is cutting engine power and braking both the front wheels, then LSD is useless.

I've also heard that LSD is useful when you're turning at high speeds and the outside wheels slightly lift off the ground causing them to spin more. In this instance, LSD gives power to the wheels on the inside of the turn so you don't lose too much speed. I don't make hard turns at very high speeds, so does that mean that I won't see any benefit from LSD except in the snow?

 

And I don't even get snow where I live (southern california) so does that mean I will never get to use the $500 gadget

 

LSD essentially turns your car from one wheel drive to two wheel drive.
I don't plan to ever be in the snow but I still feel the LSD working on a daily basis.
I don't think you'd miss it unless you like to go around corners semi to moderately agressively.

There's a large enough market of used MINI buyers that like the way they look and drive that won't care about LSD.

 

with apologies for a re-post, here's my riposte...

+1 on the LSD

don't leave home without it...IMHO

I did it the hard way - with a Quaife on my '04 - smart money and I paid three times what it costs now from the factory

example: entering a two lane state highway (like US 1 up here in Yankee land) from a side road. the intersection is wet, and there is a touch of sand. the traffic is 40-50 miles per on the highway, and dense. visibility in the direction the traffic is coming from is impeded by a hill, and there is no more than three seconds from a car appearing to a car passing in front of me.

a gap opens, and no cars are coming, so it's time to accelerate briskly - turning to the right to join the highway, and getting 40mph on the car pretty quickly...

scenario 1: no LSD, DSC on

the right front tire slips when the clutch is eased out, the car moves 15-20 feet out onto the highway, but the ASC reduces engine power waiting for traction to improve, and applies a little brake force to the left front (non-slipping) wheel. The resulting hesitation takes a second, and during that second a car appears from the upstream traffic at 50 mph, and is now 2 secs behind the mini, which is struggling to get 30 mph...

scenario 2: LSD, DSC off

the RF tire does not spin, however the loss of traction does cause the car to understeer a little bit as the clutch is eased out. automatically i feather the throttle for a moment to let the car turn, and then add power, shift, and reach 50 mph in a few seconds without drama. the car that appeared as i started the manuever does not have to brake to avoid me, and i do not annoy the driver or endanger either of us.

bottom line -- the DSC, no LSD combination can take away your ability to accelerate in a situation where it is not only safe to do so, it may be NECESSARY. Normally the DSC is your friend, but if you ever get impatient and dart into a hole in traffic you might be a bit startled when your rabbit turns into a turtle.

Folks in Cal - ever found a shady corner with eucalyptus trees and a bit of damp? now THAT is slippery. Snow is not the only challenge for a relatively high horsepower FWD car...

cheers,

charlie

 

Not putting LSD on the auto upsets me as the scenario given above is a great example of how LSD works. Additionally I believe it can help with ASC on as LSD is mechanical it would prevent the wheel from spinning and without spin the ASC would never retard power. Of course without LSD on _my_ MINI I can't test this.

The other example I use is when making a left hand turn. So many times have I attempted to make a quick left in traffic and had the ASC kick-in. It is a tad scary to have your foot on the floor, looking at on-coming traffic through the passenger window, and having the "intelligent" ASC system cut the engine power to 0.

 

As someone who's owned both the Stock LSD (Clutched LSD) and a Quaife, I thought i'd add my two cents to this topic by saying that there is a quantifiable difference between the OEM and aftermarket offered LSD's (Geared LSD's). I recently made the switch to a Quaife from the stock unit and notice a HUGE difference in traction.

I might also add that the stock LSD WILL eventually wear out (like any part with wearable components). A Quaife is designed to be coupled directly to each wheel, and thus isn't any more wearable than the gears inside your transmission.

For the every day driver, the stock LSD is probably fine, but if you plan on tracking your car, you WILL notice an improvement in lap times with a Quaife.

That being said, I don't think I could drive a FWD car (especially the R56, which has an incredible amount of torque steer from the factory) without an LSD.

 

The LSD provides a mechanical link between the two drive wheels so that in the event one loses traction, there is still some power going to the one that may have more grip. Yes, by definition it is a sort of 'traction control', but the traction control we are all familiar with usually implies electronically controlled, which applies slight braking to a slipping tire.

A poor man's LSD back in the day was to slightly apply the hand brake in a RWD car to limit how much torque would reach the pavement, effectively giving some traction control.

Anytime you apply enough torque to overcome the traction allowed by the drive tire (note singular) in a low-traction situation, you will benefit from an LSD.

Anytime you apply enough torque to overcome the traction allowed by the drive tire (note singular) in a low-traction situation, you will benefit from an LSD.

Case in point, turning onto a busy street and needing to get on the gas to match traffic's pace. With the steering wheel turned, the inside wheel will inevitably spin (has less of an arc to travel). An LSD will limit how much slip is allowed (I know, I know, using the words in the name to explain it.... shame on me).


It's definitely worth it, even if you don't THINK you'll need it. And it'll increase the cost of an average MCS by 2%... not too bad.

Post Script: Apologies if a lot of the information here is redundant.

 

Absolutely, that's 75% of why I bought this particular car. Its capabilities have kept out of 2 minor accidents already. I wasn't doing anything particularly dumb, but would have had an accident in my previous vehicle.

You probably aren't going to miss $500 over the course of your loan. While you are paying it off, you are almost sure to wish you had the LSD once.

The only peice of advice I can offer if you do get LSD is: When you get the car broken in, take it to an empty parking lot. When you get there, take off hard a few times with the wheels turned and learn to manage the understeer. Cars with and without LSD will both understeer some, but it is easier to cause yourself with LSD, and it would be good to learn to adapt to it. The DSC supposedly is a little more forgiving before it takes over with LSD installed as well. I am not certain of that, but I can come close to smoking the tires before traction control kicks in. I didn't abuse the demo car enough to find out if it behaved the same way.


Some people say that LSD also increases torque steer. I don't think it does, compared to the non-lsd cars I test drove. It does make the torque steer seem to bounce from side to side a little while the tires work out which one has grip at the moment. Either way, you are gonna have to have a firm grip on the wheel when you press the skinny pedal in a turn.

Plus, what cmt52663 said, all of it.

 

FYI, DSC has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on engine power. The DSC module on the car ONLY brakes the wheels to assist during oversteer or excessive yaw.

DSC + ASC is the reason people experience a loss of engine power during slippery maneuvers. ASC controls the TRACTION on the wheels by reducing power during slip. The two systems (DSC+ASC) are linked permanently on the MINI.

This programming can be altered via ECU programming. Jan actually programed a few cars to have F1 style traction control, where it only reduces power slightly (Enough to quell the wheelspin) rather than cutting it completely.

 

Yup, I knew this but got lazy with my use of acronyms. I should not be on NAM and try to host a conference call at the same time. Glad you corrected me.

You mention changing the ECU. Was this something MINI did? My car was a early/mid December build '08 delivered on the first so if they started making changes in January I would not have received it. If there is some way to reference this change I'll give a call to MA and discuss getting this changed.

 

Oh well... just called my MA to change order and found out my MINI went into production today

How dare I doubted the LSD overlords Now I am condemned to a non-LSD life

 

If not tracking or driving in snow, save $500.

 

The ECU programming is a change that any dyno tuner can make if he knows what he's doing. I know Jan from RMW has this capability, although as of right now the R56 software still wasn't available. I believe Dimsport projected a release in the next few months. Unfortunately MINI neither has the capability or will to make such a change to the DSC on our cars. I doubt any MA would even know of the existence of such a service.

I'm not sure whether Jan is charging more on top of the regular tune to desensitize the DSC, but he's usually only a phone call away. Give him a call if you have any questions.

 

Save up about $1000 and when you put a new clutch in throw in an LSD.

 

I know I will be changing clutch sooner than later.... As this will be my first Manual car

Thanks for the reassurance that all is not lost. $1000 looks OK