Someone on this forum made the point that BMW/MINI doesn't care about their customers after they get their money. I'm curious how many people feel like they've been really screwed by BMW, and whether you truly expect more altruistic behavior from any other car company.

My personal position is that ALL car companies are in the business to make money. They will all screw the customer down the line if it will make them more money. The only reason they might not screw the customer is because they perceive that it might actually end up costing them more in the end (lemon law, word of poor customer service spreading, etc). In other words, in my experience, there isn't a car company out there that truly behaves any differently. Furthermore, to expect different behavior is to set yourself up for disappointment.

I know lots of people have had bad experiences, and I'm sensitive to that. I feel badly for you. I hope things turn out better in the end. But I haven't heard anything that would make me not want to buy a MINI, or that would make me think BMW is any worse than any of the other major car manufacturers.

I welcome your input.

Jason

 

I always go back to Lexus when the topic is customer service. Lexus will never give you the each-dealer-is-independently-owned B.S.. They put on a united front, the dealer gets reemed if they don't take care of you.

I owned an IS 300, its frame started to creak when I would turn. Lexus had to do a lot of work on it to fix it. Not only did they pay my car payment for two months, but I was driving another brand new IS 300 in the meantime.

I'd go in for a new brake light and they would wash my car.


All in all, I think the story is this... BMW has an incredibly huge complex that their cars are attracting a "lower" market of buyer. They think of themselves as all-mighty but then treat their <25K car buyers like crap. Even though they consciously marketed this vehicle to this demographic.

I don't have any evidence to support this, but I would guess Mercedes would do the same with people buying a C-class hatchback

Lexus on the otherhand, is comfortable with the fact that they actually do sell a cheaper car. They also treat all their buyers with respect.


Lexus on the other hand

 

So I guess for my position to be true, I would have to get some evidence that Lexus has screwed someone. Interesting. I have heard that Lexus excels at customer service, but my suspicion is that they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. So somewhere along the line they have to be making a profit.

Anybody have a bad Lexus story?

I also get my MINI washed for free whenever I take it in for anything. I actually brought the car in and they didn't do anything because they had to call technical assistance to figure out what to do. I still got a loaner for the day and they still washed the car. I know others haven't always been treated so well.

So perhaps the difference between BMW and Lexus is better dealer discipline. I'll have to look deeper into the Lexus operation.

 

My wife has just bought her fifth Lexus and I have had my first MCS for a year now (actually a year in four more days ). They wash her Lexus every time she takes it in.

Crevier washes All BMWs and MINIs that come in for service AND any time I want to stop by they will give anyone that bought a MINI or BMW from them a free wash. They use to wash ALL MINIs and BMWs for free any time until the number of vehicles coming in each day overloaded the capabilitis.

Earl

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SCURVES is NOW 1O851 CS

 

Well I've owned many cars from many manufacturers over the years. And I've always taken my cars to dealers for service.

The MINI is the first company where I have repeatedly felt that I was being gouged, being hassled, or being given the run around by dealers just because they could do it and get away with it. And I've had this feeling at several MINI dealers now. I've had to deal with BMW/MINI USA to resolve some relatively minor issues and they were no better.

I think it boils down to a culture of disrespect for customers at BMW. This is reflected in even simple things like making customers wait months for a service appointment.

Companies like Honda, Toyota and Acura have to deal with a lot more customers than BMW. Yet they seem to care about each customer and they bend over backwards to assure customer satisfaction. They seem to have their act together.

At least that's been my experience.

 

I have friends who have made the switch from BMW to Lexus and swear they will never go back to BMW. In Hawaii, it is a very different ball game as we only have one BMW dealer, as does Lexus. The difference that my friends have told me is the whole Lexus experience. They told me you have to experience it as they have never been treated like this at any other dealer. I guess I will have to do that one day.

Our BMW/MINI dealer has had its share of problems relating to the service department. The sales end is great, but for many the experience is soured by the service department. I even had lunch with some business associates today that own some BMW ///M cars and we discussed this exact problem. They love the car, but refuse to purchase from our dealer because of the market adjustment. For the extra $5k - 10k in markup they paid on their vehicles they expect excellent service, but they do not receive it. Instead, they drop their car off for an appointment to check something minor, but it takes all day. Then you are told the part is no order and you have to bring the car back. One of the guys owns a Lexus, too and he said he takes in the car and it is checked IMMEDIATELY while he waits. If it is a part that must be ordered, they tell him and he is off with his car. If they can fix it, they drop him off at his office or give him a loaner vehicle. Because of the markup and service experience, they will instead purchase their cars from the mainland and ship it here.

Another problem with MINI is they are a victim of their own success. There are soo many cars out there, they will need service sooner or later. Unfortunately, the early 2002 cars were problematic when they reached America and American drivers hands. Due to the unexpected success, they upped production and of course problems popped up.

The BIGGEST problem? The MINI is an enthusiast's car. As such the owners will be rabid about its performance and legendary handling. This is a double edged sword as the very same enthusiasts will start ranting about problems with the car. I believe we have seen both sides of this on NAM.

So, is BMW/MINI the embodiment of evil? They have done right by me with some prodding.

Jason - I think you may have read a post by one of our Hawaii members. She was so upset about her service experience she started a webpage about it. It seems she has gotten lots of hits and others have chimed in about their experiences. If you are interested, the site is http://www.mini-pooper.com


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Unfortunately, I don't have a bad Lexus story. Our Lexus had a TSB to repaint the lower body claddings and bumpers because of yellowing paint. My bumper covers were damaged from parking incidents and I thought I would have to pay to repair the bumpers before they repaint it. They fixed both covers and repainted everything. I had a RX300 for a month while they were painting it and replacing the defective stereo. I paid $5.00 for the RX.

I am hoping my future MCS will see the same dealer dedication.

 

I'm still waiting for my MCS, so we'll have to see how service turns out from the local standalone MINI dealer.

I am replacing my 9 year old 5-series with the MCS. I never had a bad service experience on the BMW. A few too many, perhaps, but no bad service. They always provided a loaner and washed the car, though I effectively paid for that in the cost of service.

Of course, this is just one data point.

 

Jason, in his thread starting post, said it pretty well.

I currently own a MINI and a BMW and have no complaints about customer service I’ve received at the dealers that I’ve dealt with. Equal to the service my wife has gotten with two Lexuses (Lexi?), and certainly much better than she got from her Mercedes dealer.

Keep in mind that the service advisors and service manager are people, and as such they react to the way that they are approached. If you are angry and demanding it’s unlikely that they are going to be sympathetic to your wants and desires. If you walk into their store feeling that you were “being gouged, been hassled, or being given the run around by dealers just because they could do it and get away with it,” then you’re likely to walk out with that feeling reinforced.

Life is too short to go around being angry about something like customer service from a car dealer. If you are unhappy with BMW/MINI, then do yourself a favor and buy a Honda or Toyota or Acura and get over the anger.

 

After being almost killed pulling out into traffic (BOG) a few times, like several other MCS drivers (check the NHTSA reports on MCS speed control) I was surprised at the lack of interest shown by the local service center and Mini NJ. In fact they showed no interest at all.

My car also had the yoyo and the stumble software issues. The yoyo was never fixed and all BMW did was BS me about fixes coming soon and eventually told me it was a "characteristic" of the car.

To cut a very long story short - I went throught 2 lemon law hearings for the same issues and eventually was awarded Lemon status for the yoyo as it substantially impairs the value of the car.

BMW knew the car had these problems when they sold it to me - that is illegal - Instead of doing the right thing and refunding my money or replacing my car, they chose to drag the whole process out as long as they could hoping I might drop off along the way.

Lauderdale BMW refused to give me service records and threatened me with the police when I demanded them. (service records are required to be supplied to the owner of the vehicle at any inspection, test drive, or service by law) When I was given service records they contradicted what the mechanic had told me about the service so as to avoid any incrimination of BMW. BMWs tech rep. (Jose Garcia Atlanta) lied under oath in the hearings many times trying to save BMWs skin.

While all manufacturers are in the business of making money I think it would make a lot more sense to fix problems and keep your customers happy. I guess BMW don't want to do that with the Mini cause there are so many crap ones out there with endemic problems it would cost too much. It's a numbers game in the end and I just pulled a bad number - and BMW lost me as a customer forever - I also have a 540 that will never see the inside of a BMW service center again.

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'03 S DS

 

I totally agree that every car company is out to make money and watch their own pockets. On the other hand I would have never guessed that Mitsubishi would have done so much a better job trying to keep customers than BMW. Mitsubishi bought back and Eclipse from me in 95 with no charges what so ever and I paid $2500 for a $5,000 MSRP upgrade. I was hoping for something similar or even MSRP with BMW but it wasn't even close.

 

Customer service at BMW is crap, but I couldn't give a damn about that. I gave the service manager at Lauderdale BMW a gift when I made first contact, and from that time on all they did was lie and cheat me to save BMWs corporate skin. Needless to say the rediculous customer service survey calls stopped when I told them if they can't fix my car don't bother with the BS customer satisfaction calls. It's not the customer service that makes me angry - it's the fact that BMW broke the law when they sold me a motor car that they knew very well had software problems that almost killed me and my 6 month old daughter.

After a year they still have not fixed those problems.

Mazda offered their customers cash when the RX8s didn't make the stated HP. I can't see BMW doing that.

BMW corporate focus way too much on the numbers at the expense of not only customer satisfaction but customer loyalty. They'd rather loose customers than fix their cars if it was going to cost anything. (just my experience)


>>Jason, in his thread starting post, said it pretty well.
>>
>>I currently own a MINI and a BMW and have no complaints about customer service I’ve received at the dealers that I’ve dealt with. Equal to the service my wife has gotten with two Lexuses (Lexi?), and certainly much better than she got from her Mercedes dealer.
>>
>>Keep in mind that the service advisors and service manager are people, and as such they react to the way that they are approached. If you are angry and demanding it’s unlikely that they are going to be sympathetic to your wants and desires. If you walk into their store feeling that you were “being gouged, been hassled, or being given the run around by dealers just because they could do it and get away with it,” then you’re likely to walk out with that feeling reinforced.
>>
>>Life is too short to go around being angry about something like customer service from a car dealer. If you are unhappy with BMW/MINI, then do yourself a favor and buy a Honda or Toyota or Acura and get over the anger.


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'03 S DS

 

>>My car also had the yoyo and the stumble software issues. The yoyo was never fixed and all BMW did was BS me about fixes coming soon and eventually told me it was a "characteristic" of the car.
>>
>>To cut a very long story short - I went throught 2 lemon law hearings for the same issues and eventually was awarded Lemon status for the yoyo as it substantially impairs the value of the car.
>>

Tokio - Did you file the Lemon Law suit by yourself or did you have an attorney? As your car was deemed a Lemon, did MINI USA make you sign a confidentiality agreement? This is a very interesting case and I'm sure others would be interested in how you managed to succeed.

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Beast,

I signed nothing with BMW in Lemon Law and I did represent myself on both occasions.

The first hearing was after BMW refused to service my car because I had a reduction pulley. I offered to install an equivalent to stock sized pulley for the purposes of diagnostics (to avoid damaging the SC seal replacing the original pulley) BMW said that wouldn't do - even though they knew they had no fix at the time. BMW passed the motion that they had not been afforded 3 + 1 attempts to fix the car (statutory requirement) in a stock condition. After 2 1/2 hours of technical discussion and a lot of BS from the tech rep from BMW the case was not heard.

I had the original pulley replaced/heated on (BMW said that the whole SC should be replaced). I allowed BMW their statutory repair attempts with the MCS in stock condition and filed Lemon Law again.

BMWs defence was that I had damaged the car with the aftermarket pulley but offered no proof (they have to) and they also stated on the prehearing inspection report that I had put another aftermarket pulley on the car. They also tried the old "this work was done by a non certified Mini mech. etc. etc. They tried to cloud the whole issue with the pulley that in the end had absolutely nothing to do with it. BMW had had their statutory 3 + 1 attempts to fix the car in stock condition (and some) and had not fixed the problem. The board members took the car for a drive after I took them and showed them how I could reproduce the yoyo.

The board deemed that the yoyo substantially impaired the value of the car.

Refund

Simple as that really :smile:

PS.

I should point out that before I ever modified the car, I had the service manager of Lauderdale BMW test drive the car (240 miles on the clock) - he told me it was a software problem and hoped the next upgrade might fix it though it may be a characteristic of the car. I thought it strange he would say that and told him if it's a characteristic of the car I don't want it. He refused to give me a service report of that test drive. But the board accepted my testimony on that and for some strange reason the BMW tech rep. backed me up. Probably the only truth he told.

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'03 S DS

 

Thanks for the info. I'm sure other members would find it useful in defending their problems to MINI. I have heard that MINI tends to use the excuse that lots of things are characteristics of the vehicle and nothing can be done.
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I am sorry to hear all these negative stories about BMW/MINI. We at Classic are highly encouraged to keep a high customer satisfaction rating. BMW holds customer satisfaction (CSI) in the highest regard and we (the dealers) are constantly watched by BMW and if the CSI is low the dealers do get into some serious trouble with BMW. If your dealer constantly has a poor CSI rating and doesn't care then they need to be shut down no questions asked. We at Classic BMW are always in the top three dealers in our market in CSI and we are proud to say that. If there is an issue with a client and the client calls the owner of Classic Auto Group (who may I add is almost ALWAYS on campus and available for consulting) you can BET whomever the concern is with will get a personal visit from him. Our president and owner of Classic Auto Group cares and is EXTREMELY interested in each and every client; whether the client purchased a used car for $2500.00 or just brought their car in for an oil change. I have been told by multiple new clients about other dealers and their own poor experiences. One particular situation that comes to mind is the following:
One morning a young woman called the BMW parts department and I answered the phone. She said she needed some information about convertible top parts and I asked about her car. The car was a 1994 325i convertible and had never been serviced by us before. She had accidently punctured the plastic rear window while cleaning the snow off the car. She took the car to her local BMW dealer to get it fixed through her insurance company. The dealer sent the car to a trim shop rather then replace the window in house. The BMW told her there wasn't a replacement window from BMW available. She believed then...why wouldn't she. The trim shop cut a piece of clear plastic and siliconed it in place, if you can believe that. They got silicone all over the canvas top too. They tried to give her the car back to her like that. She refused and contacted her insurance. The dealer said they would replace the entire top with an aftermarket one because OEM tops were no longer available. The new top was junk and didn't fit right at all! She then contacted the BMW dealer and they said that was the best it would get. She then tried to contact the dealer's owner but he refused to talk with her. After almost three weeks she finally got ahold of him, but he said there was nothing more they would do since her car was old she should just trade it in. She then called me and asked about availability of the OEM window and top...they were available from BMW I told her. She asked me to call her insurance agent and see if we could work out something. I called the agent and we spoke for over 45 minutes. I told him that if he sent me a check for X amount I would order all the necessary parts and we would get it fixed right. I felt it was my duty to improve this client's view of BMW; therefore, I discounted the parts to wholesale cost. Sure, her insurance was paying for it but the lesser the cost to the insurance company, the less the damage to her insurance costs. We got her car fixed correctly and she kindly called our owner and told him how much I had helped her and that she was now a Classic customer. So...not all of us dealers are bad. For those customers that have poor dealer relations call the owner and express your thoughts.

 

classicmini1 - Thanks for stepping up to the plate and reassuring us of the integrity of some dealerships.

This thread has really got me going! I like fighting for the underdog.

 

classicmini1:

It's great to be reminded that there are some really good BMW/MINI dealers out there. I hope your concern for customers as demonstrated in your account is duly rewarded with lots of referrals, lots of new business, and continued high CSI scores.

I always see very favorable posts about Classic MINI on this site. I wish more MINI dealers were worthy of such praise.

I also wish you guys weren't so far away!

 

ditto the above!

 

This is really a great thread.I'm stepping up to the plate mostly to offer the counterpoint to what appears to be the impression that all BNW/MINI dealers are bad.With a July 2002 build mcs,ordered long before the dealer was even built,I probably have as many miles/months as anyone (although I have read of a few,clo wanda et al with more miles).I have made a name for myself on this site as being a windshield champeen(with my sixth recently installed)

 

"The embodiment of evil" is a strong statement to make about any car company. Every company is in business for one reason, some sort of gain. Whether it be monetary as in the case of any for profit company like BMW, or societal gain as in the case of non-profits, it is all about getting ahead. In today' climate of focus on shareholder return, it could be argued that BMW and other compnies like them are simply choosing bowing to the shareholder due to unrealistic short term demands that the market place now commands.

However, in the case of BMW and all other German car companies, I suspect that this is not the case. Rather it is a case of unbridled arrogance where the American public has rediculous tastes and are unsophisticated so wouldn't know the difference between a quality automobile and whatever they produce. I am sure they did not intentionally produce an inferior product but neither are they working hard to make it right. If a recall or the like is announced, it could be detrimental to the brand. However, it they handle the issue like VW handled the coil pack issue, it could also be detrimental to the brand with a far greater impact.

I know no one here likes BMW/MINI to be compared to VW, but in many ways they are alike. They are both German owned and operated auto companies that are governed by Germans that think they can do no wrong. Hopefully BMW can learn the lesson VW has recently with the public relations nightmare surrounding the coil pack issue and the legendary poor service. BMW's shortfalls are not nearly as well publicized as VWs, but that could change any time the media finds out about the serious flaws that has not been rectified.

Until the car companies find it more beneficial to fix the issues so as to gain a customer that will continue to buy more product from them over time like Lexus, they will continue to focus on the short term "there is not a problem" mentality and we will get the short end of the stick. One can only hope that BMW will wake up soon to the brewing storm and do something but I find that unlikely. Their sales performance is fantastic right now and the change would have to be a fundamental change in the entire corporate culture from the top to the bottom. This kind of change takes years if not decades if the top of the management ladder is fully supportive of it. In the case of the German automakers, they cannot fix a problem if they will not recoginze there is a problem.

 

Like I said before, this thread really gets me inspired. So here is a hypothesis.

Money = Evil
BMW/MINI = Money
therefore, BMW/MINI = Evil

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jgregga, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree....in the end, ANY company that "is only in it for the money" is going to have serious issues.

I hate to get all dorky right now, but the book "Built to Last" Built to Last at Amazon.com really brings that point home.

The companies that end up being successful in the long run are those that are built upon a solid visionary foundation, and instill that in their employees. This vision rarely involves a "turn your cusotmer upside-down and shake them until all the money falls from their pockets." It's more along the lines of Nordstrom's "the customer is always right, no matter what."

While car companies seem particularly challenged in this area, I firmly believe in the fact that the customer gets what the customer demands. There's no reason to settle for anything less than what you believe you genuinely deserve -- as long as you're not exploiting the company in return.

Whew! Didn't mean to lay down the hammer, but I've found that keeping a level head, respectfully escalating the problem (when/if necessary) get you pretty much all you want as a customer.

 

Come on folks, we're talking about car companies...not charities or non-profit corporations. Of course they're in it for the money! As public corporations, they have to be in it for the money; otherwise, they would be in breach of responsibility to their shareholders. Therefore, good customer service isn't done out of "autruism" or from Toyota's "goodness of heart." The Lexus folks have made a calculated decision that their profits can be increased by holding a strong corporate line on excellence in customer service. So far, this has certainly worked for them. BMW, on the other hand, has taken a somewhat different (or at least not as well controlled) approach. According to the BMW shareholders, this approach must be working...otherwise there would be an effort to change. It's really not very complicated when you stop to think about it.

At the same time, being abusive to customers as a process for taking their money is generally considered a poor business "strategy." Therefore, we tend to see relatively little of that, and certainly few companaies endorse this behavior at the corporate level. But once again, all of this is driven by straight-forward business decisions.

I think it's important not to fall into the trap of thinking of corporate entities in human terms. Corporations are not people and hence should neither be attributed human emotions, actions, or benefits (particularly in the area of legal protections). It's a rather unique American (US) thing to grant corporations the rights of individuals...and it's probaby be a good thing if we all stopped thinking of these legal entities in this way.

 

I still think it has a lot to do with the individual dealers. I had bad experiences (poor treatment, service, shoddy work) at my first dealer. But switching to a new dealer, they treat me great, do great work and yes, wash my MINI (inside and out and condition the leather!). They also get me in for a service appointment within 48 hours AND I don't have to bring it in in the morning and have it sit there all day. I can make a noon appointment and be out by 1pm. I hated my first dealer's service. Rude, inconsiderate and inconvenient. But I'm thrilled with my new dealer's service.