Me too. Time to hop in the MINI, grab a pizza and head for home.

Have a great weekend.

Dean.

 

No animosity here and I've conversed with Slag on other forums and there is no animosity there. Read what he and Reelsmith are saying. Read what others have said.

Again, the implication is that Slag is a troll. The implication is that he is bashing the car because it's different from the R53. The implication is that animosity exists if there is an attempt to debate the appeal of a certain car.

There were several cars that out accelerated the R53 and many of them were not enthusiasts cars. The issue was not out and out performance but the feel of the car - the stiffness of the suspension, the feel of the steering, the burble, the look, the chassis dynamics.

BMW specifically watered-down some of those rougher edges to make the car appeal to a broader audience, just as Mitsu did to the Evo. This is not debatable, this was a planned goal of the redesign = sand off some of the rough edges, maintain the cache of the unique style and make the car more palatable to a larger group of people.

Remember the days where we used to see several posts a week from people griping about the burble, griping about the harsh ride, etc.? BMW heard that also and took steps to widen the market appeal of the car.

Again, even if BMW was a selling 500 more R56s a month but producing 1800 more, that doesn't mean that you just look at the sales increase and say that the car is a bigger hit than it's predecessor. The days of buying an R53 in New York and having it shipped to the West Coast are over in order to get your mitts on a Mini are long gone - the supply is more than the demand.

So - they reworked the car to make it appeal to a broader base and upped production to meet the anticipated demand. Guess what - the demand is not there. Go look on the lot of your local Mini Store. Motoring File can bleat all they want about sales up 10% - what's the flip side? Where's the rest of the story? Why were there financing incentives for the first time? Why is there inventory stacked on the lots?

Is the R56 a bad car? Of course not. Does it perform better than the car it replaced? In most measurable ways - yes.

Unfortunately, the is a large contingent of First Gen Mini owners who were attracted to those same rough edges that BMW tried so diligently to rub off. To those people, the R56 will remain a step backwards from the R53.

 

You too! <-- not meant in its alternative meaning.

 

+100. You took it from my mouth!!!

 

Yeah I'm going to go have some dinner with family tonight, then motor with a mix of different generation Mini/MINIs tomorrow.

I just spent 2 hours detailing our 2, in 40f windy temps, but now we can pick either for the run tomorrow

Have a good weekend folks

Mark

 

Wow this thread made the time go by at work today.

So here are a couple observations, first off people take offense when you tell them that something they love is junk, a joke, not as good as previous ones, etc... If I were to say your kids are ugly you probably would get upset. If I were to keep saying it to you how ugly your kids are (or your car is crummy comparred to mine), you would probably get more upset. If I were to give reasons (valid or not) clarifying why your kids are sooooooooo ugly you would probably get really upset, or begin to realize that you were trying to be hurtful or have some sort of inferiority complex about my kids vs. yours, some hidden agenda, or purposly were trying to **** me off, be spiteful, etc...

That being said, I would venture to guess that anyone posting on this web site is a mini /driving enthusiast, if you were not you would not be here, taking into account the few who are just here to stir the pot and provoke. I'm not a lawn bowling enthusiast so I am not on their sites discussing the merits of bermuda vs rye grasses.

As far as one version being better than others, it's absurd and as dumb as saying classics are the only real minis, R53's are the only true drivers cars, or R56 are just like tercels. Comments like that offer a better window into an individuals personna than most realize.

In prior discussions along these same lines I have tried to state how stupid all this sounds, bashing one version, and saying how your version is the only true mini and other versions are not. What happend to the Mini communtiy, are we not all comrads and enthusiasts of a brand, no matter what year it was born.

Why so much internal slamming of your fellow owners cars, why the need to bash other versions? Maybe we can start on color slamming next? That chili red is not a drivers car only astro black is, if you have a pure silver car you might as well drive a Toyota, yuk!

Can somebody gave me an answer to this???

 

I think you summed it up well and answered your own question.

 

So criticizing a car is on the same level as criticizing a person?

 

slag,

I have followed your posts closely and I'm understand that you REALLY don't like the R56 and you REALLY love the R53 but I'm puzzled by a couple of things. If the R53 was that well suited "out of the box" for driving enthusiasts, then why did you feel it necessary to buy a heavily modified JCW? And THEN, why did you dump it after only 3000 miles. I would have thought a driving "enthusiast" would have put quite a few more miles on their baby before abandoning it in pursuit of a Porsche 911.

poyzin

 

Heavily modified JCW? My JCW was factory stock... never modified. Additionally, I did not "abandon" my "baby"... I'm a driving enthusiast, an automobile is a tool I use to enjoy that facet of my life, that does not however make me it's "daddy"...

As for pursuit of a 1987 air-cooled Porsche turbo... if you need to ask... you probably wouldn't understand the explanation. Much in the same way some don't understand the total lack of passion the driving enthusiast has for the R56.

 

I keep having this flashback regarding the original Datsun 240Z and how it evolved into this overbloated uninspiring thing that was the 260Z to the final insult the overbloated 280Z. Each model moved a little farther away from the orginal design intent..A fast great handling minimalistic "Sports Car", Hell the orginal 240Z's didn't even have AC. I hope BMW realizes this and pulls themselves back from the edge, otherwise those of us with the supercharged versions will be like the orginal 240Z owners...Wishing we would have never sold ours.( I will never get rid of my 03MCS, Better yet, my son won't let me)

 

I wasn't going to post anything in this thread, but what the heck.

Yes you are correct about the 24ounce Z. That is a very good example. But Datsun was responding to a few things. Emission laws, saftey laws, owners who wanted AC along with other things like power windows & an overall cushieness. The Z's got bigger fatter & lost their edge. The hardcore few who wanted the Z to stay a true sports car were too few to matter. Sad but true.

Yes MINI & BMW are headed down the same path. Sorry to say, but it is all about $$$$$$$ & they feel that softening the car up a bit will help them sell more. Again the hardcore MINI fans are being overlooked. History repeats itself once again.

That being said, I think the new R56 is a fine car, just a bit different. Once they figure out a fix for that cold start death rattle on the MCS I'd consider one in the distant future.

My R53 is at 34,000 trouble free miles.

Thanks for listening....

Carry on.

 

I take extreme offense to that totally ignorant comment. I owned a R53 with one of the first JCW kits installed in Orange County, Ca. I also currently own a '66 classic and R56, both of which I happen to love to drive. I am a driving enthusiast, no matter what car I am driving, even if it's my daughters Ford Focus or my wifes Tahoe!

How does somebody who does not have some sort of ax to grind make such a blanket statement as stated above. Stating a personal opinion is one thing, but trying to generalize about others and how they feel about something borders on absurd.

 

Great analogy! If we could step back in time... this discussion would parallel the 240z driving enthusiast laminating the direction Datsun has taken the Z, while the 280z owners would argue that the ride quality, gas mileage, and power had "improved", and that "most people can't tell them apart anyways"...

Why can't the R56 owners see the direction MINI has taken the brand with the R56 release? Is it that they feel the bloated and fugly 280z was the pinnacle of the original Z series and that the driving enthusiasts of the day were simply bigoted for not embracing it?

 

"Extreme offense"? We are discussing automobiles here... If this level of commentary on automobiles and driver persona's provokes that level of reaction, then you have personalized this discussion well beyond lively debate and should take a step back an re-evaluate the entire subject matter.

 

Slag for president!

 

Oh wow, someone help me hoist slag onto this pedestal, I'm not sure I can handle him + his ego.

 

I think your found your ego match

 

I remember the downhill slide of the Z very well. A buddy of mine had a 240 and his Dad bought a 260 when it came out ...it was such a disappointment

I wandered onto a Porsche Forum of some sort the other day and saw a similar discussion. Long time enthusiasts were lamenting the fact that the new cars have so many electronic systems in them that Jessica Simpson could turn in a good time at the track.

Lets face it ...the masses aren't enthusiasts and the masses are where the money is.

There is hope though. There have been cars that (such as the Mustang and the Vette) that spiraled downward and then came back.

 

I think the Z car had a brief highlight with the bi-turbo model of the 1990's. It was a good car but too pricey.

I have ridden in the current 350Z and I did not care for it one bit. Great powertrain but the car is too damn harsh and uncomfortable. The interior trimmings and plastic are what you would expect to find in a Sentra.

Too bad Nissan hasn't done much to keep this now 5 year old model appealing. Aside from the Nismo version, there is no much there to see. A supercharged or turbocharged 350Z would have been the ticket.

I have never been a big fan of GT type cars like the Mustang or 350Z, but the upcoming Chevy Camaro may help change my perceptions about them.

 

Your right... the direction that BMW has taken the R56... to the masses... is one that would have happened regardless, it was just a matter of time. All driving enthusiast automobiles go through this cycle it seems, with some returning back to their roots.

But to deny the shift has even occurred... to state that the follow-on redesigned "masses" model is every bit the driving enthusiast automobile the prior model was.. is to ignore the market and segment shift itself.

For those Datsun 280z owners to argue that their model is every bit the driving enthusiast automobile that the 240z was... because "most people can't tell them apart"... is the same idiom logic we R53 driving enthusiasts are hearing... only this time from the R56 owner.

I'm positive that 30 years into the future, the concept that the R56 was every bit the driving enthusiasts automobile as the R53... will sound just as absurd as someone today making that same claim between the 280z and 240z!

 

I have a hard time fully grasping the resistance to change. I imagine the next time this car is re-styled in four or five years R56 owners will be screaming that they ruined the car. No matter how much one may argue that one is better than the other, it is nothing more or less than change. Some prefer the changes, some don't, it is all a matter of preference.

I have a 2005 MCS and love it so much I don't think I will ever want to let it go. But I would love to have a 2008 MCS or possibly even a Clubman.

Car enthusiast or driving enthusiast - who cares? I love owning and driving my MCS but I am sure I don't qualify in many people's definition as an enthusiast because I don't modify my MCS or go to a track with it. So what? I don't care if I am labeled any kind of enthusiast, it doesn't make me appreciate my cars any less. How much of an enthusiast I am doesn't make me or those like me any more or less valid nor does it make my preferences more or less valid. If the R56 doesn't meet your enthusiast requirements, there are plenty of other cars that may.

As for the criticism of BMW, the company was near bankruptcy at one time. They made many changes and turned the company around. Many people don't appreciate the changes. The recent changes to the 3 series are hated by many. But the 3 series is one of the most successful cars if not the most successful car in its class. Not that they aren't capable of mistakes, but I have more faith in their judgment based on recent successes than anyone who would criticize their judgment. If the R56 turns out to be a bomb, I am sure they will address the problems. Right now they are trying to keep the MINI from becoming nothing more than a novelty by expanding its appeal and expanding the line of MINIs offered. Sure seems like the way to go to me.

If only the enthusiasts were buying MINIs, the brand would either die or it would be much more expensive. I don't know if it could compete at a much higher price.

So what should BMW do? Change is necessary, it keeps the brand alive. I am sure many of us R53 owners would not change a thing or change very little because we love our MINIs. But making little or no change would result in brand death. BMW is doing what it thinks is necessary to keep the brand going.

Making sales comparisons of the R53 versus the R56 does not quite tell the story. The only true comparison cannot be made. Had no changes been made at all, it is possible that sales would be down even more than they are. The novelty is waning. Those of you that bought a 2002 in 2002 enjoyed a pretty unique car. There were very few of them. But as each year went on, more were sold and each year it becomes much less of a novelty.

Bottom line I suppose is, if you love your R53, do as the OP suggests and keep it. There is nothing wrong with that. That is what I want to do. Yet I have no problem with respecting and appreciating the need for change. The R56 is still a heck of a lot better, in my opinion, than most car choices. I like it.

 

Change is necessary, yes..... But keep it focused. That's the trick!

 

Exactly! But BMW didn't keep it focused... they turned the R56 into a caricature of the R53... they broadened the market segment with doo-dads like funky turn signals, fake hood scoops, gimmicky keyfob starter, pie size speedo.. and other gizmos in order to entice the masses. As part of a marketing organization I understand this pattern.. many here have witnessed this same market strategy in past automobile cycles, like the pyscidellic design era of 1980's Japanese automobiles with their funky stripes and gadgetry.

In the end, doo-dads, while being interesting to a broader market segment, do not add to the driving experience... they water it down.

 

I had other issues (aesthetic and ride) but in the end it was the doo-dads that lost me. Especially the fob ...there was no way I was going to carry that thing around. And turn signals that take time to figure out? Come on, turn signals were perfected 50 years ago. I hate when simple stuff is made difficult.