Hello. I got fed up with the crappy Hi-Fi in my Clubman, decided to eat the $500, and start over. I went with a complete JL Audio setup - 3 ways up front, 6x9s in the back, a 10" sub, and a 5 channel amp. I had a shop install it, and I need to take it back in becuase they didn't do it right. A few questions for those who have tried this so I know what the problems are.

Specifics on the install that would probably help - they pulled the factory amp and are running speaker level in's from the head unit spliced into RCAs to the amp. The amp is set to take the speaker level in's off the RCAs.

There is a low level hiss to the stereo when the headunit is on. If I turn it all the way down, it disapears, but any click above absolute zero on the volume **** and it makes the hiss. So I don't think it is the amp, but the head unit. When I droped the gains on the amp, the hiss went down to tolerable levels. I don't remember any hiss with the factory amp (stock Hi-Fi). Anyone else have this problem or notice it?

When I unlock my doors with the remote, the amp turns on. Seems like they might be using the wrong power line for the remote turn on. Or is this a function of the Mini Computer and wiring due to the "gongs"? Any solutions if not?

They probably have the wires screwed up becuase when I adjusted the fader, the right was left and the front was rear. The "gong" was coming out the rear! The wiring problem also gives me pause becuase I'm not sure they have the phase correct which I need to test with an SPL meter. But, here is my question. I switched the RCAs all the way around so the fader is right. But, I now seem to have no bass coming out the front set. Since I no longer have the factory amp, does the head unit now think it is the non-Hi-Fi and not put out a flat signal to the amp? Could this be related to the rear-channel swap that folks are doing with the standard radio? Would or could this be fixed if I had them hook up (ie power) the factory amp, but not connect the ins or outs?

I'm also getting a terrible alternator / ignition noise or whine from the radio. Since it happens when the radio is on or off, but the amp is still on, I assume it is noise in the power line for the amp. I'm sure I can have the shop fix it, but I wanted to know if anyone else ran into this problem and had to correct it.

Finally, for those that went aftermarket amp, did you need something like a Clean Sweep? I know I've got some problems with the setup, but I can't seem to get things dialed in so it sounds right.

Well, I can't comment on the full sound quality yet, but the install "looks" amazing. They mounted the sub in the spare tire well in a fiberglass enclosure with a custom bracket for the amp. Speakers all fit in the OEM openings, and you really can't see anything from outside the car. I'm having a hard time blending the sub to the rest of the system, but I think it is becuase of the head unit doing something funky.

Anyway, for those who have advice, please speak up. Thanks in advance.

Jon W.

 

they need to start with getting phase and the balance/fade orientation right. i would recommend a high quality line out converter over using the amps built in one that could take care of all ur noise issues right there

on a hifi u shoudl have all flat signals from headunit if i recall correctly

are u sure they tapped in before the amp and not after

 

jweiss,

penta brings up a few good points. and add the below to you list when you go back. It sounds like this "Pro Shop" does not realy know hwat they are doing as they should never have given it back to yo this way.

IMO good choice on components.

as pentavolvo said have them go with remote line level converters. What yo have there now is probably causing some sort of ground loop and that coudl easily be where some of your hiss is coming from. Especialy as the amp may ground one side of the RCA and the head unit will not like this, the head unit must be floating for both + and - for each speaker.

see comment above.

When I unlock my doors with the remote, the amp turns on. Seems like they might be using the wrong power line for the remote turn on. Or is this a function of the Mini Computer and wiring due to the "gongs"? Any solutions if not?[/quote] This is bad they are definately using the wrong wire as the amp on wire. They deffinately need to fix this.

i do not think that anyone has confirmed removing the amp causes the head unit to revert to cutting the frequency response for the front channels but it is very posible that this could happen.

Sounds like a bad ground line. This is very common by less experienced installers as they will ground the amp to the body of the car using a sheet metal screw and will not clear the paint off of the location where they have grounded it to. This leads to a very week ground.

Can't comment on this as i have not finished my aftermarket upgrade (cash is tight) but it would not hurt.

it woule rally be help full if we new how the sub signal was genreated int eh amp as there is no sub output from teh head unit.

Good luck with getting them to fix all your problems. Hopefully you paid with a credit card so that if they do not want to fix it you have recourse thru you credit card to not pay for somthing you are not satisfied with.

 

no need for a cleansweep in a cooper

 

The remote turn on signal from the stereo in 2nd gen does turn on when you unlock the car - dont worry about this. An alternative is to use an amp that is signal sensing

 

All - Thanks for the replys. (Mikeythemini - I never would have guessed the remote signal turn on fact. Thats crazy.) And given that I have the factory amp in my garage, I'm pretty sure that the signals are straight from the head unit.

The guy who installed it was off until today, so I plan on taking it back it today. The alternator whine is the biggest thing. Of course I would like for them to get rid of the hiss too, and figure out what is causing the lack of bass from the fronts. Maybe putting in the factory amp might help get the front signals flat again (at least it sounds like they roll off in the bass region if that really is the problem).

I was using the crossovers in the amp (A JL Audio 500/5) to get the sub signal. Main speakers are crossed over (fronts at ~80Hz, backs at ~120, both at 12db slopes), and the sub is in the ~80 range with a 24db slope. When I switch the fronts from crossed over to full range, it gets very little extra bass. I should have tested the rears, but where they mounted the amp, I have to stand on my head to try to adjust stuff.

They originally recomended the line out converters when I was looking at the JL 6450, but they talked me into the more powerful Slash, and said that I shouldn't need them on the Slash amp.

I also had them run all new speakers wires. I didn't want 100wpc running through the stock wires. I'll let you know what they end up doing.

Thanks again.

Jon W.

 

i would see if they really ran all new speakers wires not that its gonna make a huge difference honestly. ur component speakers really arent gonna put out much bass at all IMO. Im a firm believe that a LOC will fix alot of ur problems and have them dbl check the amp ground

 

Well, I took it back to the shop today (Sound Advice in Orlando FL) and I have an appointment for next Monday. The fact I wanted the factory amp to stay hooked up wasn't communicated to the installer. But he heard the low-level hiss and the alternator / ignition whine. He wasn't sure what the problem would be, which of course leads to little confidence they will be able to reasonably fix it. I probably need him to run a signal sweep on the front and rear speakers to see if they are getting a full range signal.

He didn't think that seperate line out converters would help. He told me that the wires that were running to the Hi-Fi amp were already line level, which I really didn't think was true based on reading this forum. I am pretty sure the head unit is EXCATLY the same between the standard and the Hi-Fi radio, the difference is just the wires run to the amp and then back to the speakers. So the head unit has to be putting out speaker-level outs under either option, right?

He also installed the crossovers in the spot where the factory amp was, so it might get complicated to move them to hook the Hi-Fi amp back up. I guess if he can fix the roll-off problem I think I am having in the fronts, the hiss, and the ignition whine, I don't need the factory amp reinstalled.

The devil is in the details I know. Getting it dialed in is going to take some work.

Jon W.

 

I wonder if anyone else has unhooked there amp to confirm if it changes signal out from radio

it is not a line level outputs, it is highlevel just like non hifi

the fact that ur crossovers are installed where factory amp was to me says he didnt run new speaker wire and tapped in right where the OEM amp was

 

Penta might be right on the speaker wire...I sent you PM Jweiss, i want to do basically the same setup. Would love to see pics and of course, keep us updated(hopefully with good news).

 

The signal to the amp is "Speaker Level" i have tested this and can confirm that the head unit outputs "Speaker Level" for either the Standard or HiFi systems.

 

Update! The shop spent a lot of time and was able to substantially minimize the ignition noise in the system. They grounded everything, and its about 80% less than what it was before. I think I can live with it as you really can't hear it with the AC fans running. But if you stick your head to the tweeter, it is ever so quietly there.

Regarding the crossover issue, I think its just that the sub it so overpowering that it seems like I am getting a frequency dip. I will probably hang out in the car with a test tone CD and a SPL meter to see if I need to do any tweaking to the gains or crossovers. When he pulled the sub out of the car and cranked the stereo, there was a lof of bass coming from the front speakers, even though the amp's crossovers were running low pass.

I was able to confirm that he ran all new speaker wire even with the crossovers installed in the location of the factory amp.

One question for the group though... When I unlock the car, the amp turns on. This is because of the "gong" and warning chimes that come through the radio. However, when I crank the engine, the amp turns off and back on. I am assuming this is because the amp has a "low voltage" sensor and it turning itself off to protect it from damage. The factory amp did not do this. So, the result is that the first few gongs aren't noticeable (because the amp is off), and as the amp powers on, there gongs are a bit distorted and filled with static. The last gong or two sounds normal. Do you think there is a way around this? Would a capacitor provide enough power during this voltage drop to keep the amp on? Any damage to the amp with the "on"-"off"-"on" of the car starting process?

Oh, and Sound Advice is going out of business. Sucks for them , but I've struggled to have a relationship with them for the past 15 years. Too much turnover in the salespeople, and too much "buy it now" crap. I didn't think they could compete with BB, which they tried, and I didn't think they could complete with the true high end shops, which they actually did but were not supported appropriately by Tweeter. They could have found a nice middle range nice and been quite successful. But these are pretty tough times and with BB trying to move upscale... and even CC cratering, not too surprising but kind of sad as they have been around for a long time. Not that I ever would have trusted the install of my car audio to BB.

Lastly, they left the factory amp pulled. They reconnected it, and the noise was still there. Given they got rid of the noise, it probably wasn't worth the hassle of making them move the crossovers and all the wires to another location.

Thanks for the feedback and sharing in my drama.

Jon W.
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I think everything might have turned out better leaving the stock amp in place, connecting the output of the stock amp to the Slash amp, setting the selector switch to "high" for the high level input, turning the gain all the way down, and going from there. The output of the hifi amp is probably cleaner than the output from the head unit which is probably where the hiss is coming from.

For your noise issue, they probably started with each ground at the closest point to the device being grounded. All devices if possible should be grounded at the same point to eliminate a small voltage potenital being introduced (ground loop). Usually, you want to at least have the shortest ground possible coming off your highest power device and run all grounds to that same point which should also have a big enough contact patch to handle the maximum current of all devices combined.

For your amp powering on and off, they used a +12V lead that is on a circuit that turns off when the car is started. There are very few circuits left on when a car starter is engaged to allow full battery capacity to be devoted to the current demand of the starter. Once the ignition circuit is released, the other circuits close again.

In my opinion, the Slash amps have "engineering for the sake of engineering" applied and require an extra step that shouldn't be there. Each input uses a single RCA pair with a "high/low" selector and single gain. If you are using speaker level, you have to solder RCA ends on the wires. Pointless. They should have used a terminal like most others. I'm sure it saves a small amount of money to do it their way and just passes it on to you in a little extra aggrevation.

 

where do u come up with the amp has a cleaner signal then the headunit, that is rediculous

 

This thread reminds me of the horror show I had last year having a shop do my system in my Vette. The shop talked the talk when I was shopping for a place to do it( JL components up front, JL coax rear, JL Stealthbox 10w3,500/5). They kept having issues and problems and talked their way out of it. I had the car back to them several times. I finally had enough and took it somewhere else(recommendation) and they fixed it up good in no time and its been great since. I did have an issue with the 500/5 affecting radio reception. Spoke to a JL rep in Miami and he said sometimes that happens with the Class D amp. They swapped it out for a 450/4v2 and a 300/2v2. Im really nervous about tinkering with my new Mini, it seems even more problematic then the C6. Good luck, it will work out for you.

 

Well, here's an update on my aftermarket install for my 08 Clubman with Hi-Fi. The shop I had the system installed at is now out of business. I got the gains and crossovers set to my tastes. I still have a few problems that I need help from the group in diagnosing...

1) The amp turns off when you start the car. I looked at the wiring and stuck a volt meter on it. It seems to be using the right remote turn on cable, but the voltage of the cable drops to 0 when the car starts. So the amp turns off. Because the amp has a turn-on protection mode, the gongs and chimes come through all distorted (less than a few seconds). But I can't imagine that having the amp turn on and off is good for it. I need to find another cable that puts out a 12v signal that is tied to the ignition, that doesn't turn off when the car starts. Any ideas of which circuit I can tap into? Something close to the back of the car would be nice.

2) I am still having an alternator noise that I am troubleshooting. I checked where the 4 gauage power cable goes - straight to a terminal / block right off the battery. The ground cable connects to the shinny metal bracket that is bolted to the frame near where the factory amp was installed. The noise comes from all speakers, regardless of whether the head unit is on or off. And since the amp is always on, and I drive the car often without the radio on (when the family is in it), the noise drives me crazy. I think the noise is coming from the amp, but I'm not positive yet. I'm going to pull the inputs and check to see if the noise is still there. If so, probably the amp. I'm also going to power the amp off a batter charger that is independent from the power supply of the car, so see if that removes the noise. Other thoughts to troubleshoot? If it is the amp, how could I fix it? What is the best place to ground an amp near the back of the car? I could also try moving the power cable of the amp to the other side of the car (I think it is on the driver's side now). I could also run a ground cable back to the battery, but I think I would need a 4 guage cable, and that would be a pain to do. I can also try another turn on wire to see if that could be cauing any of the noise problems. Any thoughts here would be REALLY welcome.

Other things that I discovered in my research and poking around... the installed did exactly what some of you suspected, right after the crossovers in the back, he spliced into the stock lines. He ran new ones for the tweeters, so they each have their own line, but it is mainly the fact that I paid for it that irratates me. He also had the phase for 3 of the 4 channels out of order. I thought it was just the one, but when I checked that one, and it was right, I looked at the others and all three were off. No wonder the subwoofer crossover was having problems!

Other than these two things, it sounds really good.

Thanks everyone for their thoughts.

Jon W.

 

i would start by looking to see how ur rca's are routed in reference to ur power cable are they all twisted around it etc, did he use a quality LOC

 

You may not want the amp to be powered while the engine is cranking...

 

I've got the same disturbing noise after installing an amplifier to power my new Focal loudspeakers. I went back several times to the store that installed it for me, and they managed to reduse the noise. They installed a manual switch to turn the amplifier off when not listening to music. The only alternative left is to change the intire headunit.