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New R58 Family Member

  #101  
Old 01-16-2017, 11:13 AM
Tigger2011
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So over the weekend I finally got a chance to install the turbo wohoo! Had a small snafu along the way though. Pulled the exhaust manifold and turbo off as a unit, separated the two and found the exhaust manifold had a crack where the two meet, right along the divider....Scheiße!! Luckily, I had an extra manifold laying around. Only problem was it was port matched to a different turbo. So out comes the porting tools and I ported the X51 plenum to match. Otherwise there would have been a raised lip which would have lead to excess back pressure and hot spots that would have lead to cracking. Left the rest of the turbine housing alone though. Grrrr.... how come nothing ever goes smooth

This is the X51 configured for use for use with an electronic boost controller.



Initially we're running it under ECU boost control and Nick is working with us to develop a Stage 3 tune specifically for the X51. And here's Vlad with everything installed and buttoned up.


Now comes datalogging and dyno on the existing Stage 2 meth tune. Haven't had time to do much yet but my initial impressions from a few pulls... I think I need to find less expensive tires
 
  #102  
Old 01-16-2017, 12:54 PM
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turbo envy :(

if mine ever gets running right we need to do some tuning also!
 
  #103  
Old 01-16-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by randeez View Post
turbo envy :(

if mine ever gets running right we need to do some tuning also!
 
  #104  
Old 01-22-2017, 08:16 PM
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Development on the tune is progressing as we collect more data. Thought I'd throw another tidbit about the Turbosmart BOV out there for you guys though. It has absolutely no problems handling 25 psi of boost what so ever.
 
  #105  
Old 01-25-2017, 08:54 PM
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Pressure vs Flow

I was discussing the difference between flow and pressure with a client the other day in regards to turbo design and thought I'd share the following.

First up the disclaimer. The following was done for development purposes only. It is never recommended to supersize ones turbo without a retune. I'll follow that up with the usual admonishments. "Do as I say. Not as I do.", "Cause I said so, That's why." and "Why are Mommy and Daddy wresting with their shirts off?"... Oops don't know where that last one came from.

Anyway, after extending the wastegate to drop the boost to 22 psi it was time for datalogging and some dyno time so we could make comparisons. The idea is of course to provide as much data as possible to help Nick design a tune specific to this turbo. Same boost level, same tune, same dyno just different turbo's. The results I think also help highlight the difference between pressure and flow as it relates to performance. Vlad's previous best was 263 HP at 239 Trq at the wheels. Other runs have produced better torque but lower HP figures on the JCW turbo. Currently with the X51 we're at 272 HP and 265 Trq which isn't too bad for an older Stage 2 tune. The numbers themselves are not whats important though. It's the difference between the two that helps best illustrate the importance of flow vs pressure. Boost levels are the same and yet we're generating 9 more HP and 26 more foot lbs of torque.

Happy Motoring
 
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  #106  
Old 02-01-2017, 06:30 PM
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Stage 3 tune is installed and working five by five. With all the data provided Nick was able to tailor the tune specifically to this turbo. AFR's, timing, etc. are spot on and Nick even managed to reduce the spool time. Can't go into too much details on the tune at this point. Various things were changed to increase the safety margins on the stock motor but 1.7 bar in Map C is unbelievable. Data logging on a dyno in a controlled environment is important but real world conditions are equally if not more so. My problem is I keep running out of road before I run out of acceleration. (Note to self: Move to the middle of nowhere.) I'm also fine tuning some Aquamist settings and installing some additional data logging hardware over the next week.
 
  #107  
Old 02-02-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Tigger2011 View Post
Stage 3 tune is installed and working five by five. With all the data provided Nick was able to tailor the tune specifically to this turbo. AFR's, timing, etc. are spot on and Nick even managed to reduce the spool time. Can't go into too much details on the tune at this point. Various things were changed to increase the safety margins on the stock motor but 1.7 bar in Map C is unbelievable. Data logging on a dyno in a controlled environment is important but real world conditions are equally if not more so. My problem is I keep running out of road before I run out of acceleration. (Note to self: Move to the middle of nowhere.) I'm also fine tuning some Aquamist settings and installing some additional data logging hardware over the next week.
Amazballs!
 
  #108  
Old 02-02-2017, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tigger2011 View Post
Stage 3 tune is installed and working five by five. With all the data provided Nick was able to tailor the tune specifically to this turbo. AFR's, timing, etc. are spot on and Nick even managed to reduce the spool time. Can't go into too much details on the tune at this point. Various things were changed to increase the safety margins on the stock motor but 1.7 bar in Map C is unbelievable. Data logging on a dyno in a controlled environment is important but real world conditions are equally if not more so. My problem is I keep running out of road before I run out of acceleration. (Note to self: Move to the middle of nowhere.) I'm also fine tuning some Aquamist settings and installing some additional data logging hardware over the next week.
Did you say stock internals? I like the way that sounds! Would you ever consider going back to a non-meth setup? Have you found it a necessity when upgrading the turbo?

I've hunted around for a compressor map for the RCZ-r Turbo but haven't been able to find one yet. Are you able to share a map for the X-51?
 
  #109  
Old 02-03-2017, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by LORDVDR View Post
Amazballs!
LOL not really. More of a calculated risk to test a product. This is as far as I can possibly push the X51 without forged internals. Map A which 1.5 bar is actually safer than my old Map C.

Originally Posted by Mini Chris View Post
Did you say stock internals? I like the way that sounds! Would you ever consider going back to a non-meth setup? Have you found it a necessity when upgrading the turbo?

I've hunted around for a compressor map for the RCZ-r Turbo but haven't been able to find one yet. Are you able to share a map for the X-51?
Give up meth??? Not without re-hab Actually, I will give up meth injection but only for E85.

Meth isn't required when stepping beyond the JCW turbo but if your interested in making serious power it quickly becomes a necessity. Boost pressure and compression have an inverse relation to timing beyond a certain point for a given fuel before detonation occurs. As a general rule each psi of boost is good for approx 10HP and each degree of timing is good for approx 10 ft/lbs of torque. With the latent heat evaporation, burn rate and detonation resistance characteristics of methanol is really is a no brainer when you want to make more power and/or increase your safety margins. Choosing a quality injection system that produces reliable, repeatable results and includes a failsafe system is crucial. So if you go the route of meth injection I don't recommend skimping in this area. Yes we will be providing a compressor as well as a turbine map when we begin advertising in earnest.
 
  #110  
Old 02-03-2017, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Tigger2011 View Post
LOL not really. More of a calculated risk to test a product. This is as far as I can possibly push the X51 without forged internals. Map A which 1.5 bar is actually safer than my old Map C.


Give up meth??? Not without re-hab Actually, I will give up meth injection but only for E85.

Meth isn't required when stepping beyond the JCW turbo but if your interested in making serious power it quickly becomes a necessity. Boost pressure and compression have an inverse relation to timing beyond a certain point for a given fuel before detonation occurs. As a general rule each psi of boost is good for approx 10HP and each degree of timing is good for approx 10 ft/lbs of torque. With the latent heat evaporation, burn rate and detonation resistance characteristics of methanol is really is a no brainer when you want to make more power and/or increase your safety margins. Choosing a quality injection system that produces reliable, repeatable results and includes a failsafe system is crucial. So if you go the route of meth injection I don't recommend skimping in this area. Yes we will be providing a compressor as well as a turbine map when we begin advertising in earnest.
What Water Meth kit do you have? Was thinking of getting a Snow Performance kit installed into lil Vader. Did you install it yourself? How often do you need to fill the tank for meth?
 
  #111  
Old 02-03-2017, 01:54 PM
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I recommend the Aquamist system from Howerton Engineering. Either the HFS-3 or HFS-4. Primarily for three reasons.
1. The system uses a pulse width modulated signal to control the amount of flow just like a fuel injector. Some system rely on altering pump pressure to vary the flow. Too many variables can be introduced there.
2. The system has a user configurable failsafe that is built in as standard right on the motherboard.
3. The system has a test mode that allows you to verify and be 100% sure exactly how much meth you are spraying. Without a test mode the variation between manufacturers nozzle sizes and flow rates leaves you guessing and I don't like guessing where things like my engine are concerned.

Don't get me wrong there are some good units made by other OEM's that are good enough to get the job done for most applications. However when I'm relying on meth as a source of fuel I want the best injection system I can find.

Edit: Forgot to answers the other questions. Yes I installed it myself. I usually fill the gas tank anywhere from 3 to 5 times before having to refill the 1 gal meth tank. It depends on how hard I drive the car.
 
  #112  
Old 02-03-2017, 02:00 PM
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Sign me up. lol
 
  #113  
Old 02-03-2017, 05:03 PM
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Haha! Another acolyte of the Heisenberg Tuning Principle.
New R58 Family Member-photo722.jpg
 
  #114  
Old 02-03-2017, 05:07 PM
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Simply amazing.

I contacted Howerton Engineering and Jeff Howerton himself emailed me back. Looks like the system is a go. Just need some $$$ to buy it and then get it installed. Sweet baby Jesus it's going to be insane.
 
  #115  
Old 02-03-2017, 05:17 PM
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Yeah Jeff is good people. Service and support are simply outstanding. The kit is fully customized for our cars and comes with excellent installation instruction. Which are again specific to our vehicles. You get 3 size nozzles with the kit. A .6, .7 and .8mm nozzle. However he will replace them for what ever size you want. I'd recommend you opt for the .8, .9 and 1.0mm. I'm running the 1.0mm nozzle and have been for about 25k miles. Original mix was 80/20 by weight. Five quarts methanol to one quart water. Now I run straight methanol.
 
  #116  
Old 02-03-2017, 07:41 PM
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Jesus Mr. White...straight up meth? You cooking or what? That engine must be spotless on inside. lol
 
  #117  
Old 02-05-2017, 01:12 PM
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Yeah splash guards. Still gotta work on fit a tiny bit. Next is to reshape the and install the front ones.

 
  #118  
Old 02-05-2017, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tigger2011;
Give up meth??? Not without re-hab Actually, I will give up meth injection but only for E85.

Meth isn't required when stepping beyond the JCW turbo but if your interested in making serious power it quickly becomes a necessity. Boost pressure and compression have an inverse relation to timing beyond a certain point for a given fuel before detonation occurs. As a general rule each psi of boost is good for approx 10HP and each degree of timing is good for approx 10 ft/lbs of torque. With the latent heat evaporation, burn rate and detonation resistance characteristics of methanol is really is a no brainer when you want to make more power and/or increase your safety margins. Choosing a quality injection system that produces reliable, repeatable results and includes a failsafe system is crucial. So if you go the route of meth injection I don't recommend skimping in this area. Yes we will be providing a compressor as well as a turbine map when we begin advertising in earnest.
E85 seems magical but isn't a feasible option for us (located in southern California). I'm not after absolute power because absolute power corrupts absolutely... and by corrupt I mean "will make either your wallet or engine go boom." Approx 250hp and 280 would be great. Doing so while keeping temps down would be even better (more efficient turbo, if required to maintain a healthy safety margin meth injection).

Turbine Map?? Didn't realize there was such a thing, though it makes sense. Looks like it's time for me to hit the books again

Originally Posted by Tigger2011 View Post
Yeah splash guards. Still gotta work on fit a tiny bit. Next is to reshape the and install the front ones.

Looks great How much reforming do you think is necessary? For, instance, if we shaped them for our current trim (S), but later upgraded our side skirts and rear bumper to JCW, would they need to be reshaped/replaced?

We attended a car control clinic at an old airstrip last year that showed us how helpful these would be. It's only a couple of weeks away, I can't believe the year flew by so quickly.
 
  #119  
Old 02-05-2017, 09:24 PM
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Also, I've been meaning to ask, how has the LSD handled the increase in power? And have you had any rubbing issues with the 235's?
 
  #120  
Old 02-06-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mini Chris View Post
Also, I've been meaning to ask, how has the LSD handled the increase in power? And have you had any rubbing issues with the 235's?
The LSD has had zero issues. It's a pretty beefy unit that should hold 600 horse without problems. Pretty sure something else in the drive train will give first. Mini USA sponsored a 2007 drag Mini that made 650 HP but details on what all was done have been a bit hard to find. I'm sure custom axles, extra case hardening of the gears, probably plasma spray to beef up areas of the transmission case and who knows what else.

The R56 splash guards should bolt on the R58 without issues and the rear guards fit the JCW pretty good. My issue on the rear is the sticky tape wasn't very sticky. It is necessary to reform the front R56 guards on a JCW however as the corner radius is sharper on the JCW side skirts.

No real rubbing issues. Here's a picture of the front tire. I occasionally get some minor scuffing from the felt liner but that's it.


Where I run into a clearance issue more often is with the scuff strips under the front. The R58 is lower than the R56 to begin with. Add lowering springs and well you start getting pretty low.
 
  #121  
Old 02-07-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Tigger2011 View Post
The LSD has had zero issues. It's a pretty beefy unit that should hold 600 horse without problems. Pretty sure something else in the drive train will give first. Mini USA sponsored a 2007 drag Mini that made 650 HP but details on what all was done have been a bit hard to find. I'm sure custom axles, extra case hardening of the gears, probably plasma spray to beef up areas of the transmission case and who knows what else.

The R56 splash guards should bolt on the R58 without issues and the rear guards fit the JCW pretty good. My issue on the rear is the sticky tape wasn't very sticky. It is necessary to reform the front R56 guards on a JCW however as the corner radius is sharper on the JCW side skirts.

No real rubbing issues. Here's a picture of the front tire. I occasionally get some minor scuffing from the felt liner but that's it.


Where I run into a clearance issue more often is with the scuff strips under the front. The R58 is lower than the R56 to begin with. Add lowering springs and well you start getting pretty low.
Just got wet in my pants. #carporn
 
  #122  
Old 02-07-2017, 12:11 PM
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Cut the scuff strips off. No more scuffs. They don't do anything aerodynamic.
 
  #123  
Old 02-07-2017, 04:04 PM
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Excellent idea. I never even thought of it. I've just sorta been using them as an early warning system for when I'm driving like an idiot lol. Going fast over uneven pavement in a lowered vehicle is probably not one of the smarter things I do sometimes. Gotta work on that.
 
  #124  
Old 02-08-2017, 04:40 PM
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Since logging boost thru the normal OBD port was out I ended up choosing a PLX Kiwi 2 Wifi adapter with iMFD adapter and their boost/vac sensor module. PLX no longer makes the Kiwi 2 or iMFD adapter but you can still find them online if you look a little bit.


Can't say as I'm 100% happy with the device for two reasons. The first reason would be because it's supposed to read boost and vacuum. Mine only reads boost. Any vacuum is rendered as a boost of zero. Not the end of the world but I'm enough OCD that it annoys me. The second thing no one tells you and I had to find out about on the Palmer Performance forum is that using the iMFD adapter slows your data capture rate. The unit has to change to a different OBDII data protocol when polling anything on the iMFD chain of sensors, then change back to our normal protocol for recording OBD PID's. This slows it down. I've found that if you record iMFD data as the last in your list of PID's to capture in DashCommand the delay hit isn't as bad. Nonetheless, I still had to remove two of the normal eight PID's I record for data logging purposes. Would I buy it again. Yep but only because it's the only solution I could find.

Also a couple of people have inquired as to how quickly the X51 spools compared to say the JCW turbo or brand X. Which is a perfectly valid question when your running a compressor wheel about the same size as a GTX 2867. So I've attached some screen shots of a datalog I grabbed on the way home.




At this boost pressure the JCW MAF sensor maxes out at about 5,500 RPM. It's not important since the ECU is in closed loop mode but it's another one of those OCD things. It also looks like I'm definitely going to need forged internals with a cylinder stabilizer or MID sleeves before I find the point at which boost begins to taper on this turbo.


Still trying to schedule dyno time. Hopefully it won't disappoint too badly.
 
  #125  
Old 02-13-2017, 10:11 AM
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Little update on the iMFD adapter. One of the things that annoyed me was the when reading boost pressure it would not show vacuum. Sometimes it helps to read All of the documentation included with a product (duh). Come to find out the unit does report vacuum as well as MAP but it uses a different PID for each. A little strange on the vacuum side but the information is there.
 

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