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Yah he hit the brakes hard on the test drive and car did get a little light in the back end, but he said this is normal due to the 4 caliper brakes on the front and not on the back. Plus the back end is so light. I don't think Mini is going to fix this issue. They are pushing hard for electric. If Mini was smart they would take the Justa and put the 200 hp version of the B38. Since the justa is so much lighter in the front, it just handles better. I drove a justa loaner today and it just feels so much more responsive and agile. The JCW feels so heavy in the front after driving the Justa. I guess it is what it is.
Just before I bought my JCW I had a loaner car that was a 4 door Base Cooper, with an auto. I, too, was impressed with its handling. I could tell it had a longer wheelbase than my R56, but I have to agree it was still quite nimble. More nimble than I expected. Between the larger engine and the extra coolers in the front of the JCW, it must be more front heavy, and I do notice that it is slower in transitions than my lighter R56. But I figure most of this is a result of the suspension mods in the R56.
But, to add just more HP to a base Cooper would unlikely to be be satisfying in the handling department. The base Coopers are heavily biased to understeer, from the factory. You used to be able to buy a Gen III Cooper with the sports suspension (the base JCW suspension, I believe) and that did quite well. But you can’t do that any more. A base Cooper today would take a few handling mods to make it a fun car on the track.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 06-08-2019 at 06:39 AM.
Reason: Fix typo
So this morning I took a corner that I have taken multiple time with my Justa. I have taken the corner in my justa at 100mph several times. It is an off ramp corner with a nice bank. My justa had the Dinan tune kit and 8 in wheels with good tires. My justa would take that corner with out breaking a sweat. I took that corner today with my JCW. The car took the corner but felt way less stable, to the point I had to tap the brakes because I was worried. The car felt really top heavy.
I was told the b38 in the base model is the same basic motor in the BMW I8. There should be no reason you could not get 200HP from that motor, they get 300 from the I8. With the weight reduction and all around, you could have a very agile, fast car. Improve braking, and you have something special, the only think I did not like about the Justa was the power ban was very small. Maybe the electric car will be the sleeper we have been waiting for.
I love my JCW, but I do wish it handled better without adding 5k in mods. Oh well, still an iconic car that everyone recognizes. Do you notice that a mini is always sitting somewhere on a car lot commercial or in a movie.
Start at 5:30 into it and it goes on from there as an excellent show of cars with oversteer.
BTW - some other things to counter oversteer in MINIs - tires with stiffer sidewalls, higher tire pressure in the rear than in the front and softer springs in the rear (possibly F56 S springs).
Hope you find something that works for you.
Very cool video! Thanks for sharing that. I will admit that the GT3 is one of my "dream cars". All I need is a quick Powerball win and I would head straight to the Porsche dealership.
so here is an update. This is a weird one. I almost never my parking brake when parked. The other day I was parked on a hill, so I pulled my emergency brake. When I did there was a loud pop from the left rear brake. I did not think anything about it everything seemed fine. So on the way home I checked to make sure I still had brakes....I did, but things felt way different, more stable. So I took a turn and hit the brakes. Things got a little unstable but nothing like before.
So I am wondering if possible one of the back calipers was stuck or just not retracting all of the way so it was braking differently than the other wheels. I just thought I would give everyone and update. So pull your emergency brake once in a while I guess.
so here is an update. This is a weird one. I almost never my parking brake when parked. The other day I was parked on a hill, so I pulled my emergency brake. When I did there was a loud pop from the left rear brake. I did not think anything about it everything seemed fine. So on the way home I checked to make sure I still had brakes....I did, but things felt way different, more stable. So I took a turn and hit the brakes. Things got a little unstable but nothing like before.
So I am wondering if possible one of the back calipers was stuck or just not retracting all of the way so it was braking differently than the other wheels. I just thought I would give everyone and update. So pull your emergency brake once in a while I guess.
It is possible that one caliper piston was stuck. And that would go a long way to creating the braking issues you have had. It would also explain the computer intervention issues that you have had. I had thought the rear brakes wear self adjusting without having to set the hand brake, but I could be wrong as I really don’t know, and I always set it. But if one rear caliper piston was stuck, it begs the question as to what was checked when you brought the car in to get the brakes checked?
It is possible that one caliper piston was stuck. And that would go a long way to creating the braking issues you have had. It would also explain the computer intervention issues that you have had. I had thought the rear brakes wear self adjusting without having to set the hand brake, but I could be wrong as I really don’t know, and I always set it. But if one rear caliper piston was stuck, it begs the question as to what was checked when you brought the car in to get the brakes checked?
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Its an old design Iwas first introduced to when working at Cadillac in the 80s.
The old method to replace pads was to remove the parking brake lever at the caliper push the piston in, the screw would turn internally.
Then reinstall the brake lever, and crank the lever to push the piston in for primary adjustment.
Think about it, the rear pads have pins to locking the piston, the piston can't turn, what compensates for wear?
Th parking brake cable, it turns the lever, turning the piston internal screw, binding the pads to the rotor. (PARKING BRAKE)
This also takes up the slack for wear.
It is possible that one caliper piston was stuck. And that would go a long way to creating the braking issues you have had. It would also explain the computer intervention issues that you have had. I had thought the rear brakes wear self adjusting without having to set the hand brake, but I could be wrong as I really don’t know, and I always set it. But if one rear caliper piston was stuck, it begs the question as to what was checked when you brought the car in to get the brakes checked?
I don't know if it was really stuck I just think that last little bit of compression did not happen.
The sound that it made is curious, none the less. It could have been any number of things (stuck piston, stuck pad, stuck slider, stuck hand brake cable, etc) or just something out of place, that popped back into place. But that sound, plus you noticing that the brakes seemed better is doubly curious. It is hard not to believe that the 2 are related. It would nice to figure out what the sound was. I know it is a long ride to the dealer and the guy who went for a ride with you, but it might be worth having it checked out just one more time. Just a thought.
Mostly, I hope all is OK and better with your car...
Its an old design Iwas first introduced to when working at Cadillac in the 80s.
The old method to replace pads was to remove the parking brake lever at the caliper push the piston in, the screw would turn internally.
Then reinstall the brake lever, and crank the lever to push the piston in for primary adjustment.
Think about it, the rear pads have pins to locking the piston, the piston can't turn, what compensates for wear?
Th parking brake cable, it turns the lever, turning the piston internal screw, binding the pads to the rotor. (PARKING BRAKE)
This also takes up the slack for wear.
My ‘72 Fiat with 4 wheel disk brakes and it had this design caliper. That car design went back to the late 60s. Back then I though it was a great idea instead of the disk and drum combination a lot of cars used. It was also my first experience with 4 wheel disk brakes and, in the day, they were fantastic.
I understand your thought on how it works and it makes sense. But, that would say that if you never use the hand brake (as in a car with an automatic trans), the rear brakes would never get adjusted. If they are never adjusted, then they would quickly become none functional as the pedal travel would then be solely controlled by the front brakes and there would be no braking on the rear. Clearly this isn’t the case, as the rears always wear. So it seems that there must be another form of adjustment connected to the normal (hydraulic) brake operation that is independent of the hand brake to make this adjustment.
I know, getting a bit off topic here, but just wondering.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 06-16-2019 at 07:56 AM.
Reason: Correct format
It could have been that my car sat on a car lot for an extended time.
I still do not think the braking is what it should be, and from what I have heard, the JCW's at the driving school use different brakes, so there is obviously and issue BMW does not want to own.
"and from what I have heard, the JCW's at the driving school use different brakes"
Interesting. Just whom did you hear this from? When I was there, I was told that the cars were stock and appeared to be so. They did adjust the DTC down to 50% (which anyone can do) and between the BMWs and 5 MINIs they go through 1,500 Conti's a year. Private schools, I would assume, would use different pads as their cars are older and not replaced.
One of the things that they do teach is not to drive recklessly on public roads (like taking exits at 100 mph). They emphasized that pushing MINIs should be done on a track or supervised events like SCCA or club autocrosses.
They are a stock car but use different brake pads due to aggressive braking and higher temps. Of course they say "do not drive recklessly on public roads". Every driving school, but one, has told me the same thing. It is a liability issue. I don't want this thread to digress. The original intent was to determine if the JCW has a stability issue during hard braking. I think that we have determined that it does and it is clearly a design of the car, and the Mini is aware of the issue and has fixed it on other production cars. I would argue that a car that gets unstable in hard braking in corners is reckless.
"They are a stock car but use different brake pads due to aggressive braking and higher temps."
Digression is making unsubstantiated comments. And you have attended which driving schools and which ones told you this?
Adios, this thread is pointless.
wow there is always one. Sorry that me not going into details about my background has caused you to "melt down". There is a whole world of people out there that have been trained to drive not just on the track. Police officers, State department employees, Security professionals just to name a few. Do you want me to send you the name and address of the person who told me the brake pads are different? Would that suffice? Do your own research to see if it is true. "trust but verify"
So the "challenge car" produced by Mini is also a "stock" car. Who at the driving school told you they were stock......is that proof? Ok then someone at the driving school told me they use different brake pads.... feel better now?
No I do not have the RF anymore. I am hoping that wider tires will help the handling, but doubt braking will improve. I guess I can live with the handling part of things, it is not what I would expect, but I can live with it. What I cannot live with is the braking in corners. Like Warren2185 said the braking in corners gets almost uncontrollable at times. The car also get very unstable at high speeds. My justa would do 110MPH and just hunker down, the JCW gets a little unstable at that speed. I don't understand why a car company like BMW would even consider the handling on this car as acceptable when the much cheaper, slower cars handle better and more predictable
I have owned and raced both the F56 Justa (Gollum III) and my current car which is a Works F56 (Gollum IV).
I have not experienced what you describe, despite threshold braking and regardless of conditions. Indeed the Works brakes on the current car are one of the finest qualities of that vehicle and are hands down the best brakes I have ever driven.
The Works car stops so hard that for many reasons - and always in competition - I use a Schroth Quick Fit harness. It ensures that G forces acting on my body are not transmitted to the steering wheel, and allow me to keep soft and quiet hands on the wheel at all times.
I should perhaps mention that I always disable the DSC after starting the engine, and have done so with all four of the Minis I have raced over the years - call me old school.
I cannot say what may be causing the symptoms that you have experienced, but I respectfully suggest that it does not seem likely to me that it is a design issue.
I would also encourage you to find an autocross course, or try Track Night in America, as you clearly like to drive fast and either of those will offer a great (and relatively safe) challenge.
Kind regards,
Charlie
JCW brakes are particularly delightful at the Tail of the Dragon
Yah Charlie I think you are absolutely correct I cannot believe that what I am experiencing is a design flaw, but something is wrong. The only reason I say design flaw is the number of people who experience the same thing, so something is not right, but is definitely "in the car". It did it again today, this time not going more that highway speed, came around the corner, that banks a little outside and down, and dragged the brakes, nice even pressure and the car started to dart all over the place. I turned around went back the same way and tried same thing, and nothing, car braked like it should. I am stumped, my experience is screaming "DDC" but I cannot prove it, could be brakes and DDC. I just don't know, but it just not right. I guess I will have to find a way to reproduce it consistently and ask the dealer to take a look again. If any of you are in the Louisville area let me know. I would like you to test drive my car and see what you think.
I am looking at your picture and I could not take a corner like that in my car, while braking. You are correct the brakes are very good, but the back end is just so light. Most of the cars I have driven aggressively in the past are much larger cars and the dynamics are much different. I love the car, it reminds me a lot of my M, but I need to figure this out. I will keep bugging the dealer and my local club until I figure it out. I will be up at Mini on the Mack, so maybe some of us can talk up there. Just drop me a private message. I don't have any real "track" experience but have training in other aggressive/defensive driving environments, I will just leave it at that
I hope to hit the track with my mini real soon. I missed the dragon this year, but want to go again next year. I am really considering doing wider wheels, tires are just too new. Just curios, how was the car before the modifications? slimmer tires and stock roll bar.
I have owned and raced both the F56 Justa (Gollum III) and my current car which is a Works F56 (Gollum IV).
I have not experienced what you describe, despite threshold braking and regardless of conditions. Indeed the Works brakes on the current car are one of the finest qualities of that vehicle and are hands down the best brakes I have ever driven.
The Works car stops so hard that for many reasons - and always in competition - I use a Schroth Quick Fit harness. It ensures that G forces acting on my body are not transmitted to the steering wheel, and allow me to keep soft and quiet hands on the wheel at all times.
I should perhaps mention that I always disable the DSC after starting the engine, and have done so with all four of the Minis I have raced over the years - call me old school.
I cannot say what may be causing the symptoms that you have experienced, but I respectfully suggest that it does not seem likely to me that it is a design issue.
I would also encourage you to find an autocross course, or try Track Night in America, as you clearly like to drive fast and either of those will offer a great (and relatively safe) challenge.
Kind regards,
Charlie
JCW brakes are particularly delightful at the Tail of the Dragon
Charlie,
What are you running for brake pads? I just though that for this thread where there is a lot of discussion about brakes and whatnot, that would be an interesting data point...
I have gone back through this thread and still find it very interesting and curious. There are those who have less than happy thoughts and experiences with the JCW’s handling and feel. And there are those of us who have not had any undesirable experiences with their JCWs and, actually, have high praise for them.
I am glad that Charlie has commented on this thread. He has a lot of experience “pushing the car” - autocross and whatnot - and I thought you might find his thread about his JCW interesting. This is not in anyway to say that you don’t have issues with your JCW, and it is not to say that others have not had issues. What it is, is a running commentary about the car and his experiences with it. If nothing else, I have found it to be a really fun read. https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-corrupts.html
Eddie is correct. I have no intention of getting rid of my JCW. I still enjoy driving it every day. I am hoping to get the attention of BMW/Mini with this thread to see if there is a defective part or something in some cars. I agree that there are some that have no issues with the car, and others that clearly do. A guy in my club races his GP and his new 2018 JCW, and has experienced the "tail wag", but just accepts it as normal. I have a feeling what he is feeling and what I am feeling might be different. I am almost ready to just bite the bullet and get better wider tires to see if that helps. I did notice that Charlie is running 8" wheels. Wider tires made all the different in the world on my Justa. I was wondering the other day if the car brakes so well that the tires are loosing traction and the ABS is cycling, but would love to start getting some data points. I know a lot of people don't run completely stock. so....
if you run stock suspension, brakes and experience the braking/stability issue please reply.
if you run modified suspension or brakes and DONT experience braking/stability issues please reply
06-08-2019, 06:37 AM
