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Ok so I won't go into my driving background, but might it be possible this is not a driver issue but a vehicle issue? I would hope that when I drive my other car, that my driving skills would be the same. Really the point of the thread was to find out if others are experiencing "stability issues" with the JCW. I think that other professional drivers that report the same "stability" issues would have some driving skills, and they are reporting the same thing, but again not on every car. I had the opportunity to drive another S this weekend, and guess what, no issues. I guess it is possible that I change my driving style between cars. I really think there is something going on with both braking and the DCC. Do the cars at Mini school have DCC,
I did notice that the alignment did make a difference to the handling, things got more predictable, but still not stable. I am hoping that better tires will help, both times I drove another car they had much better tires. I know that the Conti DWS are pretty good tires, but they are a passenger car tire.
What tire pressures did you go to with DWS tires? The earlier version were sensitive to the pressure they were at and needed a few extra psi to work/handle well. I don’t know anything about this latest version.
A thought - Does the DCC have different settings? If it does, are there still issues in the stiffest setting? I am wondering if the braking issue has to do with the car’s pitch when the brakes are hit hard.
Originally Posted by Warren2185
OK...I have to take the bait just a little. Tee hee (If no-one will brag for me, I guess I'll do it myself). Here's my driving history (The web-page spelled my name wrong, it's Stilwell). It's a summary, but it was on tracks like Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, Mosport, Road Atlanta etc.
The car I raced was a "spec" car, you could not out-horsepower, or out-modify, the other drivers. The adjustments were few, like ride height, rake, camber, the spec shock adjustments and front and rear sway bar. It was down to managing braking, turn-in and all the at-speed transitions that go along with it.
I'm comfortable saying that my criticism of the car's high speed handling is still just my opinion, but I'm pretty confident I know what I'm feeling. My 2008 Mini Cooper S wasn't behaving this way at high speeds either.
From my vantage point asking about driving style is valid especially when it comes to driving at the limits. If this is ruled out, and it sounds like it is, then looking at the car is worth while. However, that then begs the question as to why some people are experiencing issues and others are not. Maybe I am not pushing the car hard enough or mine is somehow different. I don’t know, but I am not experiencing any issues. Once it is broken in, it will likely see the track where I can push its limits. I’ll let you know.
For now I can only offer up my experience with threshold braking with my track car (I’ll call it “brake bias”), what I remember reading (the testers remarked about rear end wiggle under hard braking) and a third... A friend who had a Focus ST for only a year because the torque vectoring in corners and turns (that all the testers loved) was interfering with general driving (particularly in the snow) and in running autocross (She went to a R52 S, which she loves). And a forth... I have a friend/driving instructor who has tried to get me to have a braking data profile that is almost straight up with the initial application of the brakes. Every time I have tried that the car gets so out of wack I have had no success at that. The car doesn’t like anything that is abrupt like that (I’ll put that under driving style). I have not tried this last one on the JCW. From there, about the JCW I would be guessing far out of my reach.
I am curious, though, where this all ends up.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 06-04-2019 at 02:54 PM.
Reason: Fix typos and edits...
Good posts. My wife's justa R58 is a dog at our altitude. I hit 70 mph in third when entering the interstate here, at this altitude. Hers barely hits 55mph in the same distance, pedal to the floor. My JCW tuned S is right for me, weight and torque/ power, steering. The JCWs at the school felt more powerful (quicker) but more torque pull and heavier, especially turning. Enough of a difference to definitely notice and control. Plus it was an auto, which for the race course, I would now prefer, no time to shift, hands were full. Each model of MINI is different, just as a Clubman loaner felt like a boat to me.
Hope you get yours dialed in.
I must say, even with my tiny, high-speed handling criticism, I love this car. It's got the new factor for me so that goes a long way, but I can't think of anything else I'd rather be driving. It's small, light, super-peppy and carves around town great. I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.
So i went with 40 PSI in front and 38 PSI in rear.
I would bet some significant money this is an ABS issue and DDC. Today I was driving on the highway, doing about 60ish. Came around the corner and traffic was backed up, so had to do some aggressive braking. There is was, car all over the place, tail end swinging like crazy. This time I did not have radio on so I heard the ABS cycling. Heard rears, then fronts then rears again. Front right and rear left, but not at the same time. First of all should not have been going fast enough for ABS to cycle, plus road was warm and dry with new pavement. I was expecting it so was able to control the car, but my wife might have lost control. I have driven that road for well over a year on my older 2014, braked just as hard, and never had the ABS ever cycle.
I know there is some question if the JCW with DDC comes with a sway bar, I guess I will have to put her in the air and take a look. I know some people say that DDC in sport is mode is more stiff than the S, but sure does not feel like to me. Is it possible the dampeners are out of adjustment?
So for grins the other day I picked a empty long road and opened her up. All was fine until about 110, then things got a little uncomfortable. The car felt like it was floating and there was very little control. This was with the suspension on sport.
[size=3]That definitely does not sound right. At the MINI school, they have an exercise that teaches ABS full braking while corning, under control. The speed increases each run, finally at 50 mph. It appears to be designed to keep one off of the guard rails.[/size]
[size=3]At the end of the straight you have a line and then cones placed at a sharp 90-degree curve, about a foot wider than the MINI on each side. While crossing the line you are to jam the brake pedal to the floor, start to corner, and come to a stop while not hitting any cones while stopping, all the while turning. The ABS definitely engages. I never hit a cone and the car never fishtailed or felt any loss of control.[/size]
[font=Calibri][size=3]You need to find a good, experienced SA and take him for a ride. Mine has done that before and he has a large empty parking lot that he uses for such tests. If he cannot diagnose the situation, he runs a scan. [/size][/font]
So 2016 JCW with DDC, HUD, MiniConnectedXL with Nav, AWE touring edition catback, NM Enginering tuner, Speed Boost V1, K&N CAI. All this came on the car. I don't know if anything underneath has been done. I don't see anything. I put spacers, 15 on back and 10 on front. Has extreme contact DWS 06 in standard size.
Usually Run Flats improve the handling because of the stiff sidewall, but the ride will be harsh. My tires are brand new so need them to wear out first, the will go with wider wheels and tires.
Here is a picture
I was going over the past posts and came across this one that caught my attention....
First off - Love the color!
Second - It sounds like you bought the car used and the previous owner did a lot of Mods on in it - “AWE touring edition catback, NM Enginering tuner, Speed Boost V1, K&N CAI. All this came on the car. I don't know if anything underneath has been done.”
Originally Posted by madmix
So i went with 40 PSI in front and 38 PSI in rear.
I would bet some significant money this is an ABS issue and DDC. Today I was driving on the highway, doing about 60ish. Came around the corner and traffic was backed up, so had to do some aggressive braking. There is was, car all over the place, tail end swinging like crazy. This time I did not have radio on so I heard the ABS cycling. Heard rears, then fronts then rears again. Front right and rear left, but not at the same time. First of all should not have been going fast enough for ABS to cycle, plus road was warm and dry with new pavement. I was expecting it so was able to control the car, but my wife might have lost control. I have driven that road for well over a year on my older 2014, braked just as hard, and never had the ABS ever cycle.
I know there is some question if the JCW with DDC comes with a sway bar, I guess I will have to put her in the air and take a look. I know some people say that DDC in sport is mode is more stiff than the S, but sure does not feel like to me. Is it possible the dampeners are out of adjustment?
So for grins the other day I picked a empty long road and opened her up. All was fine until about 110, then things got a little uncomfortable. The car felt like it was floating and there was very little control. This was with the suspension on sport.
I would be willing to bet that there is a big fat rear sway bar that has been installed along with the other mods. I say this as your last post describes, to a tee, the classic big RSB induced oversteer in a MINI. I know many people who have gone the route of conventional wisdom of adding a RSB tor “make a MINI Coopers handle correctly” and have suffered the results. This include myself. I have since become an anti-fan of this thinking especially for the street. It may work on the race track (although Randy Pobst would say not), but on the road this is dangerous.
I would be under the car and checking this out. If there is a big RSB I would get it out of there and put in the stock RSB...
Last edited by Eddie07S; 06-05-2019 at 06:29 AM.
Reason: Correct formatting
If you can get under the car, you should be able to tell yourself. At least on the R56, there was a MINI tag on the bar. I would think the same would be true here.
If it is an aftermarket sway bar, check NAM market place before buying new. I know several F56 owners who have upgraded sway bars and maybe they would be willing to sell there MINI one. The rear bar is typically a moderately easy DIY.
If it isn’t an aftermarket RSB... Then I am at a total loss here...
All the best with this...
First of all should not have been going fast enough for ABS to cycle
I have a 2019 JCW with the standard suspension. Mine does not have the DDC and I've experienced the exact same corner braking ABS issue you've described. Exiting the freeway pretty fast, dive into the exit ramp turn, start some moderately aggressive braking and then the ABS cycles. The front gives up it's consistent cornering bite suddenly, swims around and the car is spooky hard to control. I just thought the inside tire got a little lighter and over-slowed compared to the outside loaded tire and triggered the ABS. It seemed way too early to trigger the ABS. I thought there was no way I was close to locking up a wheel. ( I guess the ABS sensor disagreed though). I want my foot and brain to control the braking force so I can rely on it, not the arbitrary (in my opinion) ABS. When I got home I Googled if I could turn the ABS off it was so bad. So the corner braking issue you're having could also be coupled with how your DDC reacts, but your description describes what my car does as well, with no DDC.
Another note, I just added the stiffer Eibach front and rear sway bars a couple days ago. I still have the stock springs and shocks and ride height. It corners flatter, steering input seems quicker but I haven't had a chance to form an opinion if the bars help the high speed cornering handling like I hoped. (I'm talking about when the brakes are not applied). I've said this before, to me, it seems like the front and rear don't take-a-set (or plant their cornering load at the same rate). I'm thinking either the front or rear needs a different spring rate so it loads at the same time as the other when you give a given steering input. You input steering, the car leans and bites the road OK, then of few heartbeats later, the rear starts coming around at a growing and more progressive rate than when you initially loaded the car with the steering input. One other possibility is the run-flats. I still have them on my car. Since the sidewall is designed to carry the weight of the car, and the front is heavier than the rear, maybe the load-bearing sidewall deflection is different, and reaches max deflection at different rates in the front versus rear, and that's why it feels like it does. Just my thoughts.
As for high speed floating, there's always this
.
Last edited by Warren2185; 06-05-2019 at 02:43 PM.
I have a 2019 JCW with the standard suspension. Mine does not have the DDC and I've experienced the exact same corner braking ABS issue you've described. Exiting the freeway pretty fast, dive into the exit ramp turn, start some moderately aggressive braking and then the ABS cycles. The front gives up it's consistent cornering bite suddenly, swims around and the car is spooky hard to control. I just thought the inside tire got a little lighter and over-slowed compared to the outside loaded tire and triggered the ABS. It seemed way too early to trigger the ABS. I thought there was no way I was close to locking up a wheel. ( I guess the ABS sensor disagreed though). I want my foot and brain to control the braking force so I can rely on it, not the arbitrary (in my opinion) ABS. When I got home I Googled if I could turn the ABS off it was so bad. So the corner braking issue you're having could also be coupled with how your DDC reacts, but your description describes what my car does as well, with no DDC.
Another note, I just added the stiffer Eibach front and rear sway bars a couple days ago. I still have the stock springs and shocks and ride height. It corners flatter, steering input seems quicker but I haven't had a chance to form an opinion if the bars help the high speed cornering handling like I hoped. (I'm talking about when the brakes are not applied). I've said this before, to me, it seems like the front and rear don't take-a-set (or plant their cornering load at the same rate). I'm thinking either the front or rear needs a different spring rate so it loads at the same time as the other when you give a given steering input. You input steering, the car leans and bites the road OK, then of few heartbeats later, the rear starts coming around at a growing and more progressive rate than when you initially loaded the car with the steering input. One other possibility is the run-flats. I still have them on my car. Since the sidewall is designed to carry the weight of the car, and the front is heavier than the rear, maybe the load-bearing sidewall deflection is different, and reaches max deflection at different rates in the front versus rear, and that's why it feels like it does. Just my thoughts.
As for high speed floating, there's always this
.
When I looked at modifying my 2012 R56 after my 2007 S didn’t fare too well with “conventional wisdom” for handling mods, I looked hard at the 4 suspension setups that MINI offered. These being the Base, the S, the sports suspension option (base suspension for the JCW) and the optional JCW Sports Suspension (red springs and lowered). And within each of those I looked at the roll stiffness ratio of the front to rear sway bars, as that was what I was looking at changing. What I saw was, while both sway bars increased in stiffness with each suspension upgrade, there was a percentage wise greater increase in the rear roll bar stiffness over the front sway bar stiffness. Or, each had moved to a suspension that would tend to have less understeer, and, potentially, have the ability to transition to oversteer. Now, I didn’t factor in differences in shocks or springs; just the sway bars.
I bring this up just for information as it sounds like maybe MINI has changed something to move this JCW even further from having understeer and that it is even more likely to transition to oversteer than previous JCWs. As I said, I plan to take my JCW to the track and I will have a chance to “test” this out. Hopefully, not like a couple of BRZs I saw totaled on the same track because of their tendency for off-throttled oversteer (as admitted by at least one of the drivers).
It is also curious as to why the MINIs at the MINI driving school didn’t have this tendency. I looked up that school and they mentioned “fitted with performance tires”. Could this be a significant difference? The MINIs are also sensitive to tire pressure. Having a higher pressure in the rear than the front would tend to promote stability. Say 40 in the front and 38 in the rear... Might be worth a try.
BTW - did you figure out how to disable the ABS? On past MINIs it was done by pulling the ABS fuse.
Has anyone with these issues tried turning off the traction control? And / or holding the switch for 3 seconds to turn off all driving aids? I believe this still keeps the ABS and e-diff on though. Maybe they are less intrusive though. I know this switch makes a big difference when accelerating out of a corner, dunno about braking on the way in. Just an idea.
No, although I didn't research it too much. I started thinking I didn't want to be the guy you read about in the papers who crashed his car and the insurance company denied the claim because they discovered he disabled the anti-lock brakes on purpose. LOL kidding. I just decided to not pursue it.
Has anyone with these issues tried turning off the traction control? And / or holding the switch for 3 seconds to turn off all driving aids? I believe this still keeps the ABS and e-diff on though. Maybe they are less intrusive though. I know this switch makes a big difference when accelerating out of a corner, dunno about braking on the way in. Just an idea.
I have tried it with the traction control off, made no difference. So Here is the latest. This a brake issue! I was driving home from work, doing about 70, straight line. JackA%% pulls out in front of me then checks his brakes. I hit the brakes hard, and the care pulled super hard to the right, no ABS, then about 20 minutes later exiting the highway at about 60 and the traction light came on, WTF?. This was in a straight line. So as mentioned in earlier posts, Mini replace front pads based on a bulletin about "uneven brake ware". The problem has returned and not just in corners. I have to drive 1.5 hours away to my Mini dealer on Friday (since local dealer closed last week) to have them take a look. Something is not right.
This has been a really good thread! I've enjoyed comparing my car, to the original poster's car...since we are the same. Stock that is. So as you can see by my sig I too have a "16 JCW. The first thing I did in relation to my mods, was go after the handling mods first, hit the power mods second, and finish up with a few body mods that I want....which I'm doing now.
Here's my set up, that seems to work well for me. I still have a little understeer, but I accelerate nicely while exiting a turn. And I'm talking about high speed turns obviously. So my tires are bigger, I dumped the runflats while taking delivery of my car, I run Michelin Pilot Super sports....however I was mistakenly shipped All Seasons instead of Summer Performance...which I said "no big deal, I'll keep them", I've got 15 mm spacers on the rears, 10 mm fronts, Tire pressure is set at 38 psi on all fours, rear sway bar and engine tie bar....both from NM, and I've got Stoptech drilled and slotted rotors....which really mean nothing at all. they just look good! And lastly I've got G-Loc pads.
This seems to be a good set up for me. Like I said I still do get a little understeer, but I think the most important thing is to maintain a good deal of speed through the turns, which I do. Could it be better? sure it can, but I'll let ya know after I do a couple of track days.
I have tried it with the traction control off, made no difference. So Here is the latest. This a brake issue! I was driving home from work, doing about 70, straight line. JackA%% pulls out in front of me then checks his brakes. I hit the brakes hard, and the care pulled super hard to the right, no ABS, then about 20 minutes later exiting the highway at about 60 and the traction light came on, WTF?. This was in a straight line. So as mentioned in earlier posts, Mini replace front pads based on a bulletin about "uneven brake ware". The problem has returned and not just in corners. I have to drive 1.5 hours away to my Mini dealer on Friday (since local dealer closed last week) to have them take a look. Something is not right.
PS where can I get the sweet "steva-spoiler"
Between this post and the other post it sounds like you travel on a crazy highway. That’s nuts to pull out in front of someone and checks-up on you. Road Rage????
Sorry off topic....
But an interesting test, even if you didn’t intend it.
And - totally messed up in the braking department? Maybe. Could you tell if it was front or rear brake that wasn’t braking? Sounds like one brake is stuck, maybe?????
very nice Darby, sounds like you are dialed in pretty well. You would think that the "performance" version of the Mini, with John Coopers name attached, would not require so much after market equipment to get it right. BMW seemed to nail it pretty well on every other M series car.
BMW doesn't want a car that cost !0's of thousands less to perform as good if not better than a BMW with the 2.0L Twin Scroll Turbo
so Just dropped car off at dealer, after a lovely 1 half hour drive ( but that is another post). One of the tech's in the mini club that I trust (he races JCWs), took me on test drive. Hit the brakes hard and no pull. He did say that unstable car with hard baking is a JCW thing, even worse in cornering because back end is already turning. Brakes in front too good and back end too light. he said his GP2 is even worse. I trust this guy since both he and his wife race Mini's, and he is a Mini fan. He said the would check it ou and see if anything else jumps out. His JCW has upgraded sway bars and suspension
So Highways here in Kentucky are not great, and the drivers even worse, plus I drive way to fast. No road rage, I think they just realized they were going faster then the wanted too. I am going to try and call Mini customer support and see if I can run this up the flag pole, seems like something can be done since the other mini they produced (see earlier posts) did not do this, so has to be fixable.
It sounds like you have a mechanic who actually knows something. Seem strange he wasn’t able to get the brake pull you got.
If that is the case, that “the car is what it is”, then it sounds like MINI has gone further from having a car that understeers than their previous offerings. There are some fixes, if that is the case, but unfortunately the only way I know how to do it is through suspension mods. That would be to add back in some understeer or, at the least, reduce the tendency to transition to oversteer. This is not as bad as it sounds. I have done this with my track car. It involves stiffening the front end; stiffer springs, shocks and/or sway bar. Any additional understeer these add will be offset by the added roll stiffness which reduces camber loss. The easiest would be adjustable coilovers. I have worked with these too, in particular Ohlins for the R56. I took a MINI that was what the owner said was “deadly” on a skid pad and short autocross track and he would not take it on the actual race track, and, through shock adjustment, to one that he was a happy to drive on the track.
I like the Ohlins for the R56 as they give spring rates and they are stiffer in the front than the rear, similar to the stock MINI setup. Some coilovers come with stiffer springs in the rear, which you don’t want. Others don’t tell you the spring rates. Plus the shocks are phenomenal! I have not looked them up for the F56...
OK - This is just a suggestion if nothing else is wrong with the car. And it is only based on my personal experience. But your experience does sound to be a bit beyond this. It will be interesting as to what the mechanics finally says.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 06-07-2019 at 02:07 PM.
Reason: Fix typo
Start at 5:30 into it and it goes on from there as an excellent show of cars with oversteer.
BTW - some other things to counter oversteer in MINIs - tires with stiffer sidewalls, higher tire pressure in the rear than in the front and softer springs in the rear (possibly F56 S springs).
Yah he hit the brakes hard on the test drive and car did get a little light in the back end, but he said this is normal due to the 4 caliper brakes on the front and not on the back. Plus the back end is so light. I don't think Mini is going to fix this issue. They are pushing hard for electric. If Mini was smart they would take the Justa and put the 200 hp version of the B38. Since the justa is so much lighter in the front, it just handles better. I drove a justa loaner today and it just feels so much more responsive and agile. The JCW feels so heavy in the front after driving the Justa. I guess it is what it is.
Was talking to my SA a couple of years ago about tracking. He told me of a customer who does and he started by ordering a justa. He is an engineer at a national lab and did the weight/hp calculations and went with the justa, with a few modifications, instead of the JCW. The SA said that he is doing very well against the competition at the local track.
06-04-2019, 02:44 PM
