why does my JCW handle worse than my justa"
 

So I took my 2016 JCW out today for some hard driving today. I must say I am less than impressed with the handling. My 2014 justa handled much better, and that kind of got me bummed. I thought it might be the tires, but based on this review from 2017, I guess not, these are exactly what I am feeling.

"JCW gets jittery on a high speed corner exit, or heavy braking in to a tight corner, and The standard JCW can feel a bit soft and squidgy"

Any suggestions on how to improve the stability of the JCW.

I don't like the way my 2019 JCW handles in any high speed turns. When high speed braking and cornering at the same time, the front of the car swims around quite a bit, unpredictably I'd add. Part of me thinks the high speed corner/braking starts to activate the ABS too early, possibly from detecting the unloaded inside tire rotation slowing, (it certainly isn't locking up yet) and that's what causes the front to feel like it's skittering around like that. It almost feels like the pulsating you get with the ABS. On NON-braking high speed cornering I would describe that the front and the rear don't "take a set" at the same rate. The quick, initial, turn-in happens fine, but then the front of the car continues to lean and bite progressively harder, and feeds into oversteer. I wouldn't mind dealing with the oversteer, but it comes in unevenly in relation to the steering input. The car can lean, that's not bad, but it should ideally lean evenly at the same rate. My 2008 Cooper S didn't have this characteristic, but in general the 2008 was way more skittish over the bumps.

So far I've only added the NM 22mm rear sway bar and it flattens the car up a bit for spirited lower speed darting around town, which is great, but it didn't change the unevenness of how the car takes a set at higher speeds. I have the Eibach front and rear sway bar kit in the garage but haven't put them in yet. I'm trying to track down what might help. I might try upgraded coilovers down the road. All that said, I like the fun factor of the car enough that my suspension complaint doesn't really bother me too much, but it's still there.

So I don't have any suggestions, but I wanted to write up my description of the handling dynamics that I don't like. Maybe it'll give you some ideas. I'm also wondering if anyone else interprets the handling similarly to what I've described.

The biggest changes I've made in handling came from the FOUR things that help most FWD 2019 Minis...Wavetrac LSD/Bilstein B-14-16PSS Coilovers/TIRES/Rear Sway Bar (NM 25mm). Totally different and much improved...
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...e127a6a84b.jpg

Do you have runflats on the JCW? I took mine off. Made a huge difference in handling.

No I do not have the RF anymore. I am hoping that wider tires will help the handling, but doubt braking will improve. I guess I can live with the handling part of things, it is not what I would expect, but I can live with it. What I cannot live with is the braking in corners. Like Warren2185 said the braking in corners gets almost uncontrollable at times. The car also get very unstable at high speeds. My justa would do 110MPH and just hunker down, the JCW gets a little unstable at that speed. I don't understand why a car company like BMW would even consider the handling on this car as acceptable when the much cheaper, slower cars handle better and more predictable

So just curious do you guys have dynamic suspension

Madmix,
Why don't you show us a picture of your JCW and a spec list? Maybe someone here can make some suggestions on how to improvement your car's handling.

Mine doesn't have DDC. Just the sport. You can re-read my handling issue above.

My 2018 JCW is not real confidence inspiring when pushed real hard. I have the driving mode set to mid mode, between Green (blech!) and Sport. I have tried Sport but I don't notice any real improvement in handling. The exhaust sounds like a rally car though FWIW. Think my car has the sport turned suspension but I will have to check the window sticker to confirm.

I put the, well, lousy handling down the horrible run flat tires.At times it feels like each tire has selected a slightly different direction.

A co-worker who has a 2016 Mini Cooper S Coupe said the first thing he did when he got his car was to replace the run flats with non run flats and the handling of his car improved measurably. I guess I am too cheap to toss perfectly "good" tires but I may change my mind. It looks like these things are going to last a long long time. Sigh.

My advice would be to if you are running the run flats to replace them with non run flats. My choices would be probably something from Michelin or possibly Pirelli (or maybe Bridgestone or even Continental) all brands of tires I ran on my Porsche Boxster and Porsche Turbo and all proved to be exceptional tires. I'd not go wild with widths or section numbers just try to get get the same size tire in a non run flat tire as the run flat tires on the car.

Then see how that helps and decide if more is needed.

So 2016 JCW with DDC, HUD, MiniConnectedXL with Nav, AWE touring edition catback, NM Enginering tuner, Speed Boost V1, K&N CAI. All this came on the car. I don't know if anything underneath has been done. I don't see anything. I put spacers, 15 on back and 10 on front. Has extreme contact DWS 06 in standard size.
Usually Run Flats improve the handling because of the stiff sidewall, but the ride will be harsh. My tires are brand new so need them to wear out first, the will go with wider wheels and tires.
Here is a picture

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...88c0d64057.jpg

Runflats can improve on center feel, but not necessarily overall handling. I have read that Continentals like yours have soft sidewalls which would attribute a little numbness in oncenter feel. Maybe add a little air pressure in the front wheels. The engine, brakes, and additional cooling add quite a bit of weight to the front end of your car compared to a Justa.

Hi everyone, long-time lurker from Europe here who literally just signed up in NAM because of this thread.

A bit of a background first. Previous owner of a 2011 R56 Cooper S (N18) with the sports suspension and 17' wheels (contisports & pzero RFTs), graduating to a 2018 F56 JCW with sports suspension and 18' wheels (P7 cinturato RFT). No modifications made in either mini; drove the first for ~40K miles and the second for 7K (so far). My first impression when going from the R56 to the F56 JCW was an overall loss of high-speed stability and trust. I honestly could not point my finger around it, but the OP and Warren have helped me (a) understand its not my imagination, and (b) there is probably a way to address it. A third option of getting rid of my mini is out of the question, she is staying.

The symptoms as I experience them.
- When cornering (40MPH+) the front and back axle do not seem to be working together; there is a lack of balance in the weight/friction transition. Its not helped by the fast steering, and the car feels going from under- to over-steer instead of a natural 4-wheel drift with the R56.
- In high-speed braking (70MPH+), even a light application of the break leads to a loss of front-end traction. The car washes out in under-steer, feels skittish and unstable, to a scary degree as the speed rises. The weird thing is that when break is not applied, and I simply lift-off, I experience the obvious lift-off oversteer. Again, the R56 was extremely stable in the same circumstances, tightening its line when breaking in high-speed cornering.

Now, a few ideas of what may plan is, after considering what other people in NAM have shared, and also the mods of the UK-market JCW Challenge (see autocar's article)
- There may be an issue with ABS or the e-diff (EDLC or however that's called) in its configuration for high-speed cornering application. This could be what Warren described, and may be the cause of our problems. One way to test it would be to attempt taking the same turn with the nannies gradually off, and see if there is any change. Plan to do that in a closed circuit when I have the chance.
- The tires are definitely an issue. The P7s are just not performance rubber and a disgrace for MINI to fit them in the JCW. Plan to move on Michelin 4/4s, perhaps with a drop to 17'' wheels (less weight, lower the ride). Hopefully this will slightly improve the cornering balance.
- Ride height is my major concern. It is definitely feels (and is) higher-riding than the R56 Cooper S. Autocar reports for the JCW Challenge a drop of 20mm in the back and 40mm in the front, which I think is night and day, both in terms of looks and dynamics. My plan is to go with the JCW Pro suspension since I want to keep my warranty, and have her as low as she gets.
- Alignment, alignment, alignment: learned this the hard way a decade ago.
- Wavetrack LSD. Not sold on this at the moment, but will consider it in a few years from now.

I am definitely not happy my JCW is not perfect out of the box, but then again, who is? My real concern is to invest the time and money into things that actually improve handling. I am really not looking for more horsepower (she is already fast) or better looks (with the Thunder gray/black rook combo she is really a Q-car), but predictable, enjoyable, fast handling.

So what do people think? Anything else I am missing or should consider?

I’d say your write up is excellent and accurate. I don’t push my 2015 JCW Hatch hard very often but when I do front end understeer and loss of grip is the first thing I notice other than this car being FAST! 👍

My car is totally stock & one of the first handful of 6 speed manual transmission F56 JCWs produced.

I truly believe mounting a non runflat Michelin Sport Tire or equivalent, possibly in the 215/40/18 size would make a huge difference with no other change.

Adding Coilovers Suspension to lower the car would be next.

If I wanted more power then the NM Midule or Dinan Elite could be added.

My car has stock sport suspension & I love it!

I’d say adding more power is the least likely thing for me to add as this car is super fast out of the box!

As for the R56 being better balanced, that’s a good point & likely due to the overall balance of weight wheelbase & power. The F56 is way more powerful so maybe this is where it’s a bit unstable at times. Personally, I think it’s great such a car can still be produced. The F56 is a modern day “muscle car” in a compact package!

Overall, well done MINI!

You might find this interesting but I just talked to MINI Marketing feedback department. They called me as part of the follow-up for new 2019 owners. He was interested in the "image" that MINI has and as I described it is a fun car, I could tell he wanted my actual driving impression especially as a JCW driver. I got very specific about the high speed handling being unpredictable, especially compared to my 2008. I got into general high speed cornering predictability being poor and how the body lean feeds in unevenly at those speeds. I also mentioned the corner braking weirdness that spathan mentioned above and my thoughts that it was ABS related. I also mentioned this forum to him and the other members with the same feelings about the high speed handling being a tiny bit scarily unpredictable.

I was glad to get to voice that directly to MINI. However, it won't change our cars now, and who knows what direction they go anyway with the handling versus comfort issue. We want handling, the majority may want comfort.

You might be able to make it out a little as to which MINI feedback group it was. The call wasn't about the dealership or the buying experience at all. It was about the car.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...8795786027.jpg

The R56 Justa was quite a bit lighter than your Gen3 JCW right? I think some of the 4 door Gen3 cars weight upwards of 1000 more pounds than my car does (2,600 lbs). That by itself will lead to more body lean in turns, maybe more front end diving when braking.

OK, I'd like to chime into this thread.
First what I have, 2016 JCW 3 door w/ DDC and auto transmission.

First the braking, I found that the pad compound out of the factory was complete trash. When I first bought the car, high speed straight line braking ( we will get to braking in high speed corners as discussed many times above later) was twitchy to say the least. once I was through my first set of pads, I swapped them out for aftermarket pads (powerstop Trackday pads to be specific cause I know someone will ask) and they immediately helped as the pad friction was more consistent as temps rose. I think some of what is going on and one thing I noticed, is that braking was more twitchy after a spirited run along twisties. I think this is due to the EDLC (which is always on even when the stability control and traction control are off BTW, I saw someone was going to try different levels to see where it turns off), using the brakes to bias power left to right. On twisty roads, this will lead to non-even heat in the left and right calipers, which coupled with the **** pads from factory, leads to inconsistent braking power left to right, this then causes the stability control to kick in and add to the twitchyness.
The second thing I think is going on here, which I dont think can be fixed by mods, is poor tuning of the stability control for the amount of brake fluid being moved in these calipers. I think the computer is not moving enough fluid, then over compensating.

now the cornering.
First and foremost, I have seen several people mention braking in high speed corners. this is easily fixed with a performance driving class where they will first tell you to do as much braking as possible BEFORE the corner and to only be lightly trail braking if necessary while cornering. this will solve a lot of problems.
For the understeer/oversteer unpredictability, as has been suggested, get rid of the runflats and use good tires. this helps a lot. I also put NM springs on my car and found these to help with this problem as well as high speed stability, and braking stability as the front of the car does not dive anywhere near as much.

Now for some things I have discovered to make corrections while driving, I have found that the transition from under to oversteer is abrupt (tires and springs help make this more predictable), once you feel the car starting to slide, I actually found with the ELDC, rolling onto the throttle a little actually corrected it and pulled the car into a tighter corner.

The other BIG thing I found at autocross, was that turning the stability control off (traction button for 5 seconds) made the car much less stable and actually decreased my lap times. turning it back on and just traction control off, allowed me to push the car a lot harder and shaved about 5 seconds (49.3s was best lap that day) off my time, while being in a ton more control. Now, i'm not sure how much of this was the lac of the DDC when turned off vs DDC active when on, so those with just the sports suspension take that with a grain of salt.

I have not added a sway bar yet, but have noticed how soft the stock one is ( one side jacked up , I can move the rear tire in the air easily) and so i believe a bit stiffer of a bar (though not too much stiffer) will help with the predictability of oversteer. Once again, good predictable tires will also help with this.

Hope this helps and gives you guys some ideas. Overall, I am quite happy with how the car is handling now, but as always, there are still some improvements to be made as we strive for perfection.

Cheers,
Rich

Wow, some great converstation. I am not crazy....well not as crazy. I think the issue we are feeling are important to point out to both Mini and dealers. I think the problem is fixable based on this article https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2...r-laps-of-fun/ and the one mentioned previously. What did they do to this car to improve handling specifically They seem to fix some of the issues in this version.

I agree with all of you. I think two things are going on. I think the dynamic control is trying to stabilize the car more than it should, just drive straight and wiggle the steering wheel left and right to see how much dampening is going on. I have felt this on no other performance car. I think the ABS is jacked up. I think that the brakes front, back and left right seem to be out of sync, which causes the car to try and compensate. My dealer just replaced my pads because of an uneven pad ware bulletin, but thing did not improve much. I don't think the uneven ware is cause by the pads but by the ABS.

I agree that tires make a huge difference. My 2104 justa had 8 inch rims with wide grippy tires, but it always felt rock solid, even on the old 16in stock tires. Mini needs to fix this. The competition is far to fierce in the hot hatch market to ignore this issue.

I plan on trying to run this up the flag pole with whomever will listen. This is how things get fixed. Keep it coming guys (yah I know that is sexist, sorry)

The car gets twitchy during hard braking in a straight with DSC turned off. I feel it has to do with the JCW brakes being much stronger than the S brakes and throwing the braking balance off. With DSC on, the car compensates for it. It seems like the car wants to swap ends during hard braking.

Madmix, thanks for the link to the Cnet article. Makes you wonder if the people making the gen3 JCW read this sentence from the article..."a normal JCW gets jittery on a high speed corner exit, or heavy braking in to a tight corner"? I actually was unaware of the Challange but it's interesting the authors felt none of that with the Challange car.

As i run a JCW 2017MT as daily, i have a good impression, compared to my track tools.

- If you car doesnt have a LSD, you shouldnt start a discussion, a coilover expected, the major tweak is stopping the MINI "Gokart Setup" for everyone.

Yah read that as well, that is what prompted me to start the thread. I have read some other reviews and watched some videos. They mentione "car handles great, but always on that edge of out of control". I think that is a political way of saying "the car is not stable". They only made 100 challenges so not something "really out there". I think the big take aways for that car is "Nitron dampers", Mintex pads, adjustable ride height (from the factory, it's 20mm lower at the rear and 40mm at the front). They did not really do anything to the engine, they only seemed to concentrate on the handling part of thing, and the brakes.......I think that might speak volumes.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...7a4034b6e9.jpg
Wider Wheels with Better Tires...Definitely cures some of the instability...I went with NM Eng RSe05 17x7.5 and Bridgestones

Lowering the Suspension...Definitely improves the COG...I went with Bilstein B14/16 PSS Coilovers front and rear

Alignment is Paramount...all else does nothing without it...A Must

Wavetrac IS AVAILABLE and I just installed mine...basically ends the EDLC Interference...Makes you want to add more power from newfound stability and handling fixes

Pic above is at last AutoX where I competed. I raced the Class as a Stock Vehicle to see where I needed to go and was always about 2.2 seconds out of first on a 45 seconds course. Raced like you see and was only .2 seconds out of first...these modes plus NM Power Module did wonders. The Wavetrac was probably the MOST IMPORTANT MOD but they all added up...

Too bad no LSD for auto Transmission, Would have one on order immediately.

very nice Darby, sounds like you are dialed in pretty well. You would think that the "performance" version of the Mini, with John Coopers name attached, would not require so much after market equipment to get it right. BMW seemed to nail it pretty well on every other M series car.