Disclaimer: I’m not a professional driver. I’m not even a pro “amateur” driver. My knowledge level is very low in terms of determining car characteristics and evaluating how they change based on different inputs. For example, are the tires “greasy” because they’re too hot? I’m over-driving them? Over/under inflated? Heat cycled out? **** if I know. Take everything here with that in mind.

After my recent misfortune with A052’s at the track, I decided to go with a cheaper 200tw tire to see how they perform. I ran the Federal RS-Pro’s in 225/40/18 on my 2021 GP3. I’ve never used these tires before, had no idea how they would handle and no idea what pressures to put them at. This particular HPDE day was an experiment to try to figure all that out.

NOTE: I didn’t write down any of my data, ‘cause I’m not that prepared…and I’m lazy as ****.

The first session was at about 8:30a. It was cold as hell (I’m in Phoenix, so cold to me is anything below 80). I let the tire pressures ride as they were when I drove to the track. About 32F/30R (psi). Everyone was going super slow because the track was cold and still a little wet from the night before. After that 20m session, the front tire pressures were 41 and the rear about 35. The temps in the front indicated that I didn’t have enough pressure (lower temp in the middle vs the 2 outside edges). The rears hardly had any temp at all!!

For the second session, I bumped the fronts to about 35 cold and the rears 37 cold. I’ve always had the rear pressure a couple psi lower than the front, so reversing this was new to me. Handling was pretty impressive to me, to be honest. I set my best lap of the day in this session at 1:56.8 (my best is 1:55.xx). At the end of the session, the fronts were in the mid 40’s pressure wise. And the temp’s were pretty close across the tires. The rear tire pressures were 40/41, which I was happy with, since they actually got heat in them. I have no idea if this is a good thing, though, because I’m still a newb at all this.

For the 3rd session, I put the cold pressure at 32psi and 34psi, front and rear respectively. The day was warming up and I wanted to see if I could feel a difference. Well, they acted a little squirrely, almost “greasy”. I’m not sure if it was because of my driving, or what. Like I said, I’m a newb, and I’m not as consistent as I need to be yet (I blame the red mist). Afterwards, the pressures across the board…except for the drivers front tire was 40-41. The driver front was 3psi higher!!! Since the track is hard on that tire, it wasn’t really surprising, though.

Last session. Something got messed up somehow. I set my driver front pressure to 30psi, passenger front to 32psi and both rears to 34psi. My goal was to set the driver front tire a little lower to see if it evened out once they got up to temp. However, on this session I wasn’t really pushing as hard because I wanted to work on my lines. Here’s where it gets weird. After the sessions, the driver front was 37psi, everything else was where I expected it to be, about 40/41 psi. This 100% didn’t make sense to me *at all*. Handling during the session was pretty good, I didn’t notice any particular improvement or reduction.

And now for the super bizarre part. The next day, my driver front dropped to 26psi?!?!?! All the rest are about 31/32 psi.

Anyway, wear on the tire seemed to be on par with the RE71R’s after a good track day, so I’m happy with that. Of course, more testing is needed, lol! Pics of the tires and a link to the video of my best lap that day below.

Also, the first 2 sessions I used the flappy paddles in full manual mode. The last 2 I used the gear stick in full manual. It felt more natural and I’ll probably be using it from now on.

Video:

Tires:
https://imgur.com/a/ef7P6hU

 

Great post.

One thing that I do that you might consider doing is when I check the pressures when I come off the track is to reset the pressure right then if it is off a bit, especially if it is high. Resetting them hot like that ensures that they should be really close the next time I go out. I don’t have to think about resetting them cold and guessing as to what pressure to set them at.

I am not surprised about the 26 psi the next day. “Cold” during a track day is quite a bit different from “cold” the next day after all of the heat has gone out of them and the wheels (yes, the wheels absorb and retain some of that heat, plus heat from the brakes). That higher general “cold” temperature will help to elevate the pressures from what they would be if they were actually cold. On my R56 the driver’s side front tire will drop to the high 20s (28-ish) when it sits over night.

As for your 3rd session, that doesn’t surprise me either. I have seen this in autocross where things like this are more noticeable. I have had my fastest laps when I was driving “slow”. You said you didn’t see any improvement or reduction. I take that to mean that your lap times were consistent with other sessions. You said you were not pushing as hard in order to practice your line. I would guess that you thought that you were driving slower but you were actually driving better and therefore driving just as fast as when you were “pushing”. If that was the case then you were putting less effort into the tires. Or, maybe a better way to say it is that, it means that the car/tires didn’t have to work as hard to get the same times. Hence less “beating on” that left front tire. In racing this would be called “saving the tires”. I think your lower than expected tire pressure is a reflection of just that. Work with this then next time you go out. Drive “slow and smooth”. Work on one turn at a time. With that turn, work at getting down to the curb at the apex and use all of the track from turn in to track out. If you find that you are on the gas to get to the apex then you could have carried more speed at the turn in and/or you could have trail braked deeper. If you are struggling to stay on the track at track out, then think about if that was because you turned in too early... Of course these are general comments and there are alway exceptions. And maybe you know all of this, then maybe this can be a reminder. At any rate, hope this help.

I am looking forward to watching your video, later.

 

I watched the video. It kind of makes me wish I had traded in my JCW for one of the GPs my dealer has had in their show room. Glad you are getting to enjoy yours to the fullest...

 

Fortunately for me I kept my ever faithful JCW when I bought the GP3. I love them both and expect to keep both for some time. I/we hope to take the GP3 into the Carolinas and Tennessee this spring for the MOTD if it happens and most likely will take if even if it doesn't happen. Last year's was the first one we have missed in recent years and that was painful! The entire trip is a backroads adventure for us both ways as we vary the route somewhat each year. There are myriad route deviations through rural Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina to arrive in Fontana. We plan to do the same this year provided we can both get our covid shots!

 

This past year has been a tough one. Hopefully, we will all get back to some semblance of normal in the near future. Great to at least have back road to enjoy the car on.

I should also mention that I looked at your tire pictures and note that the wear is really good. In looking at the wear with respect to the tire tread edge marker shows that the GP suspension setup matches the tires well and the tires are not rolling over on the sidewall. I would say the GP setup is good as is. Looking forward to your future adventures.

 

Did you ever weight them ?

When I put on 235/40/18 on my GP a year ago, I had to discuss with specialists all over how that works )))))) 40 instead of 35.
Well for me it was a quick test to see what size I can run max, and for 100 Euros that was a affordable. But for true performance and competition they are to heavy.

Should you have the chance to find a smart tire distributor ask for the Hankook super soft, this tire you won't get without knowledge and is about 12 sec faster than the MINI 300 Euros enduros. The time of 7,56 was driven out with Supersoft. I think they never made it officially, as with standard tires this is impossible .

In Germany they are not allowed to sell, but thats ******** as they have MOT, DOT and E-Mark, some UK and Dutch Dealer can organize them, look for "C5"

 

I found a listed weight 24.6 lbs for the Federal 225/40-18. For other 200 TW tires I found between 21 and 24 lbs a tire. For a street tire, the Federals are on the high side for weight, but not that much different from the other 200 TW street tires.

The Hankook C5 is a compound softness category for their semi-slick race tires. Not surprising that they would be faster than a street tire. But they also require -3.0 deg or more of camber, added caster and stiffer springs and shocks to get that kind of track speed improvement. Not just a simple switch of tires. These will be much like the Hoosier race tires and other race tires that are used in the States. I couldn’t find a weight for the Hankook C5 tires, but Hoosier semi-slicks in this size are about 20 lbs. I would expect the Hankooks to be about the same. However, given the required car modification, the cost and fast tread wear of race tires, not sure it is all worth it over the 200 TW street tires just for a “track day”. Just my 2 cents...

 

@Eddie07S
Normally, this is what I do as well. However, on this day, I was testing differences on the extreme sides of the scale (very high start and very low start). Also, there was a 20 degree swing in ambient temperature for the day, lol!!

I'm curious why? I mean, I know the benefits of the GP vs. a JCW, but...a metric crap-tonne of fun can be had on track with a JCW, too. I used to track mine (it was a MCS with all the JCW upgrade bits, so...a SINO, S in name only, lol!). However, I don't want to assume so I'm genuinely curious why.

@Clutch Wotan
I'm not building a dedicated track car. This is my daily driver as well as my track toy. Although weight of the tires, wheels and other bits are a consideration, I'm not a professional or looking to set record track times, so those things are not that big of a deal.

Also, I'm way too lazy to have a seperate set of track wheels/tires that I swap out for track days. If I can't drive to the track, track, and drive home on the exact same car setup, it's a fail.

German via google translate, which I believe is your native language?

Ich bin nicht eine dedizierte Spur Auto zu bauen. Das ist mein täglicher Fahrer als auch meine Spur Spielzeug. Obwohl das Gewicht der Reifen, Räder und anderer Teile eine Rolle spielt, bin ich kein Profi oder möchte Rekordzeiten aufstellen, daher sind diese Dinge keine so große Sache. Außerdem bin ich viel zu faul, um einen separaten Satz von Schienenräder / Reifen haben, dass ich für die Spur Tage tauschen. Wenn ich nicht mit genau demselben Auto-Setup zur Strecke, zur Strecke und nach Hause fahren kann, ist es ein fehlschlagen
.

 

This is a great thread with a plethora of good information and spirited discussion! Luckily, for me I have both, and my slightly modified JCW which is also a daily driver is my all time favorite car since my Austin Healey 100-6. I do love the GP3 as well and I am really anxious to take it to the mountains and discover how well it does in extreme twisties. I plan to leave it stock for this experimental adventure which is dependent upon the covid status. But, the mountains are singing the Sirens' song and I am bewitched by it, therefore, it is not if, but when I succumb. Thanks for every contribution to this thread and bring on spring, I am tired of this lousy winter weather!

 

Fair question...
In a lot of respects I like the idea of a car that is largely designed from the factory for the track, as is. My R56S has slowly become that car, but it has taken a lot of work and money (BBK, shocks, swaybars, LSD, camber plates, and a few other bits). But from the factory the R56S was never designed for the track. The GP2 would have been OK, but not having the LSD, is a big draw back, and they both are very limited on tire sizes that fit. However, the GP3 fits that bill, without any other bits. And it has 302 hp... And it is very different looking... Maybe a better set of track brake pads, some better brake fluid and maybe a second set of wheels (but with street tires), but the car is basically good to go with no other mods. And clearly, from your videos it does do really well on the track. So, for me, that is the attractions of the GP3.

But, because of space and financial considerations, if I got the GP3, the JCW would have to go. Then I think the GP3 would be of limited use for me and I would not get the value out of it that others, like you, get out of it. For the street I am not a fan of the automatic, and, IMHO, the rest of the bits that make the GP great on the track would make it less great for me on the street. If I had space and did not already a prepped track car and a really fun street car, maybe the GP would be in my garage. But, I do have those cars already with the R56S and the JCW and, as you say, the JCW is fun on the track. So, I am keeping the R56S and the JCW.

I am with you on this one...
Although I do carry a spare tire.

 

"The Hankook C5 is a compound softness category for their semi-slick race tires"
- Thats sound as if you can get them :-) .What you get is: Either C3 Enduro from MINI dealer for 300 US/ea or stay with your S1 factory fitted bricks.
- You right without modifications it is useless, or correct your car gets t slowed down with useless grip. The Öhlins suspension we can set to max camber 3,7

With regards to the touring guys here, I use these tires also to drive to the track, you should know that the wear is minimal, as you never get any temperatures by driving in public traffic.

What is wrong to have the fasted car and watch the other drivers walking around your car ?

 

Three is always someone faster....

 

I know this talking, but never experienced :-) that with a another MINI. But for sure there are some better drivers. But they never have my car ;-)

 

Update on the Federal RS-Pros:

I just had another trackday at AMP, but this time Counter ClockWise, which is harder on the passenger front than the driver from when going CW. I've been working on reducing my overdriving of the car (less understeering). The tires definitely seem to like more air pressure than the RE71R's, with a hot PSI at about 44-45 in front and 42-43 in the rear. I managed to set a new personal best, regardless of track direction, at 1:55.8 (video at the bottom, after the tire pics).

The tires held up pretty well, considering I'm still understeering a bit more than I'd like. The front passenger lost some tread on the outside edges, the driver side a little less so. I'm ok with the wear considering the lack of camber in front and my driving style. The rears are wearing evenly (more camber in the rear) and have plenty of tread left. I'll rotate the tires front to back and can probably get another 2 track days (4x20min sessions each) out of them. Maybe more if I can get my overdriving under more control.






And the video:

 

David WTF at time stamp 2:23????

Did you loose your brakes or is that when you pealed the tread off the tire?

The tires - your data says you are getting 1.36g out of a street tire. That is amazing! And that could account for the tread pealing off like you show. You are getting into semi-slick territory with that kind of g loading and with semi-slick tires they say -3 deg min for camber. My guess is the g load is pulling on the tread hard enough that the tire is getting on the sidewall.

As for over driving... That video looked better. You have a nice early turn-in for some of the corners. The car looks to rotate really nicely down into the apex and you are on the gas nicely after the apex. Smooth and nicely done... Some of the other corners, maybe a bit earlier turn-in to get the car down to the apex and smooth out the turn. Avoid “driving down” to the apex if you miss it. Just stay the line you are on if you miss the apex and stay smooth on the steering. This way you have good muscle memory for creating the turn and use that with a slightly earlier turn-in on the next lap to work on getting down to the apex smoothly.

 

Yeah, my brakes were going out . I'm trying to figure out if I'm unintentionally cooking them or if it's just time to upgrade and if so, just pads or pads and rotors. This isn't something that happened with my MCS with the JCW Pro brake upgrade, and I always used OEM pads with those. I do have high-temp brake fluid and SS brake lines.

I'd take the G's with a grain of salt. I don't know how accurate the sensor on the GoPro's are, tbh.

And thanks for the tips! I'm always down for help improving, heh

 

Time to upgrade! I think you have done well to get this far on stock brake pads. Race/Track pads are soooo much better than anything else. i try something like Carbotech XP12s, both front and rear. Yes, matched, unlike the “conventional wisdom”. Not sure what pad you GP takes. It is likely one of the BMW models. Maybe someone like Way Motorsports can help you. I found that the MINI JCW takes the same pad as the BMW M2, but it is 2 mm thinner, so it wasn’t a direct fit. Something to watch out for when trying to match yours up to a BMW part.

Pagid, G-loc and iSweep are others I would look into.

 

I did some checking it seem that, maybe, the brake pad plate for the GP3 is the same as that for the JCW. If you can pull one and post a picture with a width and height dimensions, I can check it against mine.

 

Check this post:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ml#post4571331

If that is the case, then all of the pad manufacturers I noted have race pads for your GP.