Not sure if this is in the right place, mods, move me if it is not.

I just need to find a place to vent. I am an industry professional, and do not have much experience dealing with automotive dealers as a customer. I have turned wrenches professionally for 12 years, and spent the last 2.5 years as a technical adviser / field service engineer for a major manufacturer in the diesel, truck and heavy equipment markets. I have never taken a vehicle to a dealer, I have resolved every issue that I have ever had with one of my cars on my own. The lack of experience with dealership personnel probably makes my experience feel worse than it actually was.

One of the most important part of my skills that I have learned and perfected over this career is the ability to talk at the level of my audience. I can pick out the technical skill of my target within just a few minutes of speaking with them, and adjust the way that I am speaking to meet their level of knowledge, without them feeling patronized, or lost. I am also familiar with right to repair, and what internal information is not privileged that I can share with the public. If I have a customer ask me "What are the common causes of fault code XYZ?" I cannot tell them that the only option that they have is to bring their vehicle in to have a diagnostic performed. Not only is it against my company's policies, but I am fairly certain that it is against right to repair, even with the liabilities that it may raise for me. I have to tell them that "XYZ could be a boost leak, a pre-turbo exhaust leak, charge air cooler restriction, failing turbocharger, failing turbocharger actuator ect". The only way I am allowed to refer them away, is to refer them to a brand's service website for up to date service and repair procedures, and specifications. All of which has to be available to the general public.


So, now that this preface is over with. I am working on a fairly large project on my 2011 MCS, and have reached a point, that due to lack of tooling and produce specific knowledge, I may have to bring the car into the dealer for some help. (I replaced the engine and now have two active fault codes for intake and exhaust cam misalignment P1338 and P1339)

I started out with a call to the dealer to see what it would take to get my car in. The service receptionist was very helpful, but not technical at all, and was unable to answer any technical questions that I had. She advised me that she would forward my information on to the service adviser, and have them email me, or call me with a quote for what I expect to be worst case scenario, a timing adjustment. This follow up never came, so I dropped in to pay the service adviser a visit, have a little bit more technical discussion with them, and get that quote that I wanted.

Something was off from the moment the adviser greeted me. I could tell that he was treating me as just another, average car owner. No technical skill, and barely enough automotive knowledge to properly fill the fuel tank. Now, I can understand this for the first few minutes of the conversation, as I am sure that is who he works with 99% of the time. But, I was doing everything I could without coming off as condescending, to bring the level of the conversation up to my technical ability. To top it off? I was driving home from work, still had a work uniform, and employee ID badge with a major industry manufacturer on them, on. This alone should have indicated to him that I was not the average customer. But, he continued on, basically refusing to answer technical questions that I had. He refused to entertain the discussion of "what to expect when I bring the car in for service with faults ABC and XYZ active.", "What could the possible causes be." "Do you think that the car is safe to operate without risking major engine damage". His only reply was "I cannot help you with that information until we get it into the shop and run a diagnostic on it".

After some back and forth with him, having to take the condescending route by flaunting my credentials to him, and describing some of the troubleshooting that I have performed already, in great detail. I was able to at least get a verbal quote for a timing reset, and, get him to state that the faults could be caused by the vanos adaptation, and resetting them may resolve the faults.

But, it was like pulling teeth. I left the dealer with less desire to use pay them to help resolve issues that I do not have the tooling, or product experience to get through on my own. Fellow NAM members that do use dealers or repair shops, is this type of treatment the norm? Do I need to just brush it off? And excuse them for it, looking at it through their lens, and the normal level of customer they deal with? Or am I right to feel put off by the way that the service adviser was approaching me?

TL:DR? Mini owner, and industry professional goes to dealer for help. Gets treated like he has no technical knowledge, feels put down and unhelped by the service adviser. Wonders if he is right to feel that way? Or should just brush it off?

 

It is all liability, lawyers, and money.

I would not go to any shop where an employee interacted with me in such a way. I would not return to that shop nor give them my money. Looking through their lens, they are losing business because an employee has a chip on their shoulder or needs to take a smoke break.

Up to you. I generally don't let other people's problems bother me, because they aren't my problems. This dealer employee clearly has some sort of issue he needs to sort out.

 

You have identified the difference between a dealership shop and an independent. Dealerships throw new parts at a problem hoping to fix it where an indie will troubleshoot and repair. Check with other MINI people in your area for the shop to go to.

 

They're service advisors. They're not technical people. I think you were expecting way too much.

 

This ↑

 

"I'm sorry, sir. I'm not sure about that set of issues, I can try to find someone who might be able to help you answer your questions."

Customer service sucks because people suck, but it is not hard.

 

Yeah man, I try to give them a little bit of leeway in the first few minutes of conversation to be able to identify their audience and adjust the conversation as needed, but this guy just did not give it up. Probably turned me off from going to these guys for help, we'll see how desperate I get... lol

Its weird, I have no problems with dealers or distributors on my end of the industry. They employ some of the best technicians that I work with, some that are arguably better than myself, even though warranty guidelines require them to turn to me for help with difficult to diagnose cases. And, the independent shops in the diesel industry? Are some of the worst, most shade tree places I have ever worked with. Maybe it is just the different industries?

They should have at least a semi working knowledge of their product. The customer may not be technically capable, but, they are pretty capable of telling when you are BS'ing them. At least in my experience. After I have been involved? The customer has been down for weeks or months, lots of lost revenue, no solution or end in sight in their eyes, and many times? They are close to the point of threatening legal action.

Maybe I am just jaded by the pride and effort that I take in my role... And am expecting way too much.

 

Precisely. "You have to bring it in for us to perform a 120$ diagnostic on it before I can tell you anything" is not the correct answer.

This is the service system for one of the manufacturers that I work with... All you really need is a fault code number and an engine serial number, and they can ball park the amount of time, and even the price that it will be to repair it, based off of the top 5 most likely assignable causes.

 

It could also be the policy of the dealer that you took it to. The management may discourage highly technical interactions with the customer, or maybe you had an inexperienced technical advisor.

My local mini dealer is very supportive of the enthusiast community, they host technical talks, and even host my MINI club's Christmas party.
When the N18 engine came out in 2011, people on the MINI forums were wondering what changes were made to the PCV system on the new MINIs.
I was at the dealer for a free oil change and I asked about the changes to the engines. The shop forman came out and took me back to the shop where they had a head for a new N18 engine. He pointed out the changes and even told me why the changes were made.

Not all MINI dealers are the same, there are good ones and bad ones, it sounds like your dealer has some things to learn about customer service.

 

As stated above they are generally not hiring tech people for the job. The techs are in the back doing the work usually. Some I have met are ex techs and therefore more knowledgeable. You also have to look at it from the dealership side. Now with the internet anyone can do a bit of reading, show up at the shop and spout loads of tech info that may or may not be correct, they have to sift through that - instead they probably just tune it out.

Not every indy mechanic is fabulous. Some are pretty darn good at fixing cars but suck at running a business. Some charge more than the dealership because they can't make money because, well they can't properly figure out how to run the business so they just charge a lot to cover it. I've found it difficult to find a good quality shop so I've been forced to go to the dealer for those non routine things.

 

 

Being a business, the dealership looks for low-risk high-return opportunities. They really aren't interested in helping a DIYfer, cause long term there is little money in you.

I submit that giving repeat business to a competent independent shop, where you get to talk to the technician, is the best plan.

 

The only person he could find if he looked is probably a senior tech who's is no doubt up to his elbows working on another car.

To expect the tech to like a light switch switch mental gears and to be able to offer anything more than "I'll have to get it in the bay and look at it" is expecting too much.

Especially with a car that is in that the owner (or another person) has been working on. The tech to do his job right will have to be doubly careful and check and double check everything because he can't be sure the owner didn't do something pardon the expression dumb.

Often these jobs don't fit into a fixed time of repair but require some "research" time. Often the customer will balk at what seems like padding taking place.

My experience with my Porsches is while I was given extraordinary access to the techs I was very aware of their situation. I didn't give them a big question like how many angels can dance on a Turbo 911 intake valve? Had I done this I would have been shown the door.

But I tried to ask intelligent/succinct questions and got enough of a reply to what I did ask that after listening to the reply I felt the tech and I were on the same page. Sometimes -- not often -- I'd offer a mild challenge and to the credit of the tech he'd offer more detail. I didn't get an degree in automotive repair but I came away enlightened and often more impressed with the tech than before.

Even if I didn't necessarily feel quite 100% on board he's the professional and has been through all the training and has the experience and he can't take the time to go over with me all the details. At some point and based on my previous experiences with the tech it came down to trust. I trusted him to know what and how to do what was necessary to repair the car.

While I know my way around an engine having rebuilt some albeit years (decades) ago and have done other work on cars I'm not at a tech's level so I deferred to him.

Also once or twice I showed up with a couple of boxes of donuts after a particularly nasty problem was dealt with. And I made it a point to always thank the SA and the tech for their efforts and give them an "atta boy" preferably within earshot of the dealer manager.

 

I sincerely hope I don't come off as condescending with this reply, as it is not my intent.

But, I wrenched for 9 years for a diesel engine manufacturer. This view of the industry is not correct. It is not always completely wrong, but it is never correct.

I worked field service. I had a service truck, and I mostly worked with fleets. The occasional boat or RV owner. When one of my customer's had an engine down with an illuminated check engine lamp? They would call me up asking "Hey Twitch. We have bus number 2011 down with an active fault code 3383. Can you get out here to look at it, and do you think you can bring the parts with to get it running in one trip?"

Now, I would never be able to promise that I could have it running with one site visit. But, all I needed from them was that fault code, and an engine serial number. That gave me enough information to load up a box of parts that were the most common causes of whatever fault code that they were dealing with. More often then not, I would be able to give them a guestimate of how much time it would take me to repair it that was accurate to within about a 4 hour window, just from that information alone. I probably would have been fired if I had refused to give a customer any information about their engine without opening a work order and racking time up at 120$ an hour.

"We can't help you unless you pay us to look at it" is the wrong answer when you are dealing with a technically skilled customer. It was a policy with my place of employment that, when on of my in-house-repair customers called in asking for some technical advise? I could not turn them down unless they were looking for torque values, torque sequences, or specific service procedures. That information is available, in great deal, to the general public, on that brand's service website. It is also available for free, if need be.


Now, how does all of that apply to my situation with this Mini dealer? I was not asking for anything extremely specific. I was not asking for torque values on connecting rod bolts. I was not asking for the cylinder head bolt torque pattern. I was not asking for the procedure for setting base engine timing.

I was simply asking: "I have done this much work to the car. I have these two fault codes active. What are the common causes, what is the expected worst case scenario for a repair, what are the chances that the timing is slipping?" This should not have been too much for him to be willing to answer.

If one of my customer's called me, or a referral from them called me while I was a technician? And asked "Hey, I have Engine serial number 12345678, and it has an active fault code 3382, what could it be?" I would have been happy to tell him "Hey Mr Customer, the two most likely causes are an EGR system leak, or a restricted EGR cooler. That fault code means that the EGR system is not flowing enough. There are a few smaller things that it could be, such as a failing EGR pressure sensor, a failing engine wiring harness, but they are much less likely. An EGR cooler on your vehicle should take about 5.5 hours to replace, barring no other issues while I am in it, and that it is the assignable cause."

 

I sympathize with you. But... (you knew there was a "but" coming) The SAs in general don't know much. They have to either go ask the service manager or the head shop tech. At a dealer their job is to get the customer booked in for service and then try to extract as many $ from them (or the manufacturer, for warranty work) as possible because service is where the dealer's profit is. As someone said above, 99% of the customers they deal with don't know anything about the car other than "that light on the dash is on - does that mean I have a problem?" I did once end up in a very detailed interaction with the lead tech at the dealer where there was sincere mutual technical respect, but I consider that an unusual situation.

In your professional life, you've been dealing with a different level of customer and have a different business model based on long term relationships and repeat business. There also may be limited options for your customers to go elsewhere. An independent shop on the other hand will probably treat you very differently compared to the dealer.