Thank you RaceTripper. The open wheel series seems to be about the driver, ALMS, Speed Challenge are about the racing and the cars. I am not at a race to watch the "fill in the logo" car, I am there to watch racing, see the skill of the driver, look at the set up of the car. I certainly couldn't tell one Indy car from the next.

As I said earlier, Long Beach was the clincher. Standing just outside turn 11 (the hairpin) and watching the racing that took place Saturday with the DP cars and the GT1 and GT2 races was stunning. Serious stuff. Watching the parade that happened with the Indy cars Sunday was such a bore, I left for my drive back to SF about lap 10. And I did not miss anything.

I had the opportunity to see CanAm, TransAM and F1 when they ran the Glen. It was racing, not marketing. It was dangerous that focused everyone. I certainly am glad racing is safer, but I am not glad that in most series, they have given up true racing for marketing $$$$.

Go to some vintage races, look at the cars, get into the scene. Great stuff.

 

What's the budget to design, build, and race an a F1 car for a season? What's the same for an ALMS car? My guess is the F1 car is substantially more. Why? More sponsorship dollars? Why? More/better coverage to a wider audience. I'm not saying you haven't got talented drivers....and Patrick Dempsy , participating. It's just all about one thing.

But how can it be a top tier series when the coverage is only on Speed....sporatically? The only ALMS race I ever seem to catch on Speed is Sebring. It'd be great for ALMS if there was more publicity and better coverage for the other races. I realize that F1 is only not on Speed for 4 races, but is ALMS even televised in other countries? I don't imagine Europe gets too over the moon about ALMS, GrandAm, Etc. Just like we don't closely follow DTM, World Series by Renault or the various F3 series.

And comparing one sport to another is comparing apples to apples. It's all about one thing. $$$$ The sports series wouldn't even be around if it wasn't about the benjamin$.

 

You apparently don't know what you are talking about when it comes to ALMS. For one, you are obviously confusing GrandAm with ALMS. They are different series and have little in common. BTW: Patrick Dempsey races GrandAm, not ALMS (so the joke is on you ). ALMS is tied to IMSA, and the ACO (i.e. European Le Mans series). GrandAm is tied to NASCAR. They don't share tracks, cars, drivers, teams, etc. GrandAm is struggling. ALMS is growing. GrandAM prototypes is mostly a spec series. ALMS has some spec classes, but the primary classes are not spec driven (so more like F1).

Secondly, Speed televises all the ALMS races, except for a few that show up on network TV instead (i.e. like FOX carrying 4 F1 races). So that aspect is really no different than F1. Besides, network television is dying and inferior to what is found on cable, sat., etc. I don't even consider their coverage of a series as any kind of benchmark for its success. In fact, network TV coverage of circuit racing sucks, so I'd rather it stay on Speed, etc.

Furthermore, ALMS is closely tied to the European LMS series. Starting this year, they even share races in a new Intercontinental Le Mans Cup series (Silverstone, Petit Le Mans, Asia) which is expanding to include Sebring and other international races next year. So like, F1, ALMS is part of a global series with a sister series in Europe that come together for the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Europeans do follow ALMS.

ALso, the expense of F1 is a big joke. I am way more impressed to see the likes of Audi, Peugeot, Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Honda, et al. fielding extremely competitive teams that race like hell, at a fraction of the absurd costs of F1.

Please don't make ignorant statements about ALMS. Do some research and get your facts straight before posting misinformation that is unhelpful to others.

 

Wasn't that long ago, sports cars were the pinnacle of auto racing. Porsche, Ford, and Ferrari spent more (adjusted for inflation) on their individual teams, than McLaren and Red Bull combined today. It's where the factory emphasis was, because it translated directly to sales.

It kind of went away with the death of the Championship of Makes, and the FIA doing everything in their power to ensure that Ford and Porsche got knocked out of the series with rule changes.

 

Forgot to mention one more thing to add about your superior Formula 1 series vs those minor leaguers in ALMS.

Formula One is not produced in HD video, and won't be before 2012 at the very earliest. It's taped widescreen standard def by FOM. Speed, FOX, et al. scale the video from 480p to HD for their broadcast.

All ALMS races are taped in HD video and have been since Sebring 2009 (or is it 2008). The only thing that isn't HD is the in car cameras, but I imagine that's coming, probably long before anyone in FOM even has a HD camera.

 

I don't know if the figure is still accurate, but when we went to the Ferrari museum a year or so ago, we were told that 1/3 of their employees work on F1. That's an amazing number!

 

So true...

The World Sports Car Championship was powered by the might of major manufacturers the likes of Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Ford, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, etc.

Additionally, there (which I also believe added to sports car racing's appeal), was the fact that a substantial number of drivers participated in both the World Sports Car Championship and F1.

Great drivers such as: Mario Andretti, Derek Bell, Mark Donohue, Dan Gurney, Graham Hill, David Hobbs, Jacky Ickx, Bruce Mclaren, Jochen Rindt, and Peter Revson to name a few.

There was no such thing as an open wheel specialist, as drivers crossed over from one series to another and there was not the specialization that seems to exist in present day motorsports competition.

 

This article that I found brought to light something that I never gave any thought to... I wonder how many other drivers do similar things?

The Anatomy of an F1 Driver

June 11th, 2010 | Rob Widdows : Motorsport Magazine


So Fernando Alonso has insured his thumbs for the sum of 10 million euros. Now, it’s not unusual for athletes or film stars or models to insure a body part, or even two in some memorable cases…

This got me musing on the anatomy of a Grand Prix driver. The demise of the gearlever and the advent of power steering through what looks like a PlayStation device have placed far more importance – and thereby value – on fingers and thumbs. When I asked a young BMW engineer to show me around the steering wheel at a test day in Barcelona, he looked at me blankly. “Ah, the interface,” he said seriously, “ yes, a very technical and expensive piece.”

Paddle-shift and an array of colour-coded buttons require extreme dexterity in the heat of battle, not to mention operating the F-duct, the brake balance and the front wing. They are busy men, Formula 1 drivers, relying not only on lightning reflexes, sharp eyes and a strong neck, arms and legs, but also nimble fingers and thumbs. When Alonso clouted the barrier in Monte Carlo he will have kept those newly insured thumbs away from the impact.

A modern Grand Prix car is a brutal and fearsome missile. Not in the same way as an Auto Union or V16 BRM, I grant you, but the sheer force of the grunt, the grip and the brakes demand a certain standard of fitness. In the old days, of course, it would have been a driver’s palms that he might have insured, or his largely unprotected upper body. At Monaco they would finish with blistered hands, gloves worn through by the constant gear-changing. Now they must contend with huge g-forces in the corners and under braking. It’s no wonder they spend so much time in the gym, or cycling up mountains.

How much stamina is required depends, in turn, on driving style and the efficiency of the machine. There tend, even now, to be two main types of F1 driver. Broadly speaking, into one category might go Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Prost, D Hill and Button. In the other we might put Brabham, G Hill, Rindt, K Rosberg, Jones, Senna and Hamilton. I repeat, these are broad categories tagged with ‘laid-back, smooth and shrewd’ and ‘ ballsy, mercurial and out there’. Something like that. The two styles place different demands both on the driver and car. Neither Prost nor Button get on with oversteer, while Senna and Hamilton liked/like a car they could/can throw around a bit. I have been privileged to sit alongside Denny Hulme in a Can-Am car, Derek Bell in a Porsche 917 and Petter Solberg in a Subaru. Believe me, they are busy.

There will be many who disagree. But that is the beauty of debate, the post-race banter at the bar. What is not in doubt is that, inside the car, there is a lot more ‘shock and awe’ than you can properly appreciate from the grandstand, and it has always been this way. In times past you could see the driver at work. Now they are encased up to their necks in carbon fibre, appearing almost at rest in the cockpit. This is deceptive. You cannot feel the brakes, see the power or hear the snatching of breath. But watch the onboard camera at Monaco, Suzuka or Interlagos, and you’ll begin to get some idea of what’s involved in keeping the car on the asphalt.

This weekend we move to Montréal, a low-downforce circuit, but one which demands extreme concentration allied with stamina and dexterity. The walls are close and there is much heavy braking. Should Ferrari fail to find some extra speed in Canada, Signor Alonso may wish he’d asked Santander to insure his future as well as his thumbs.

 

My daughter, Michelle--also a MINI and BMW driver--got a ride in a dual-seat Indy car, and she was amazed at the g-forces at speed. Definitely not for the casual rider! Here's a NAM thread I posted at the time, which links into another board's thread:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...le-faster.html

 

Nope, sure wasn't. I know the difference. Thanks

Oh my bad....http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...ednesday-blog/

Must have confused the races. Bottom line, he's done both, STFU.

Decided to take you up on doing a little research. You know, I don't want to spout off sweeping generalizations.

Don't share drivers? Timo Bernhard, Romain Dumas, Antonio Garcia, Darren Law, Tracy Krohn, Ricardo Zonta (Not sure if he raced Le Mans this year, but still)

Don't share teams? Flying Lizard, Krohn Racing regularly pairs up with Risi Competitione

Don't share cars? I'm sure they're different technically, but both have Corvettes, Porsches and Ferrari 430s out on track.

Super, thanks.

Not going to disagree with F1 costs being high, too high. But just an idea of what those costs bring you. The fastest lap of the Spa 1000k was 2.00 set by one of the Peugeots. For reference, the fastest lap at Spa of last years GP2 race was 1.57.47. Fastest lap of Spa for the F1 race, 1.47.26, nearly 13 seconds per lap faster. But it isn't even comparing apples to apples because the cars and their purpose are so different, soooo.....

Between the two of us, you made some pretty horrendous remarks, which I can only laugh that you're disparaging my comments. Mine were based on observations. I'm not sure what yours were based on, as there were ample facts provided to discredit them.

Personally, I don't know why you're getting all worked up over this discussion. All I commented on was the economic differences of the different series and you come back with..."Grand Am is different" and "HD Cameras". Bravo, pat yourself on the back.

 

Fine. You can win the pissing match.

 

Hey all, the new tire supplier for F1 has been announced along with some other tidbits...

F1: Pirelli Officially Named Tire Supplier

Pirelli will be the tire supplier of Formula One for three years, beginning in 2011...

Adam Cooper | GMM Newswire | Posted June 23, 2010 Valencia (ESP)


The FIA has finally confirmed that Pirelli will be the official F1 tire supplier for 2011, following the company´s earlier agreement with the teams. The Italian manufacturer will be back in the top level of the sport for the first time since 1991.

In other news, the World Motor Sport Council has addressed the anomaly of a last-lap safety car by confirming that drivers are not allowed to pass, which is how the FIA interpreted the rule when Michael Schumacher overtook Fernando Alonso in Monaco.

The WMSC has also confirmed that drivers cannot drive excessively slowly on their in-lap during qualifying, a reaction to Lewis Hamilton stopping to save fuel in Montreal qualifying. In a further clarification with immediate effect, there is a new rule that ensures cars are driven back to the pits under their own power if a fuel sample is required.

The 107 percent qualifying rule will be back in 2011, although there is scope for considering practice times in cases of force majeure.

Also for 2011, the minimum weight will rise from 615 to 640kgs, giving teams ample scope to run KERS even if they have heavy drivers. Next year will see the introduction of "driver adjustable bodywork" in the form of a movable rear wing. However, it can only be used in the slipstream of other cars, as an aid to passing, and only after two laps. It will be deactivated when the drivers touches the brakes.

Meanwhile, there is a ban on any aero device operated by driver movement, which, as expected, means an end to the F-duct.

Finally, the FIA is looking into a license system for team members which will enable it to directly penalize them, which was not the case with the likes of Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds.

 

I'm curious to see if they end up going with 18" wheels like the tire companies wanted. I think it would look strange, but I think the suspensions would need to be much more compliant as there wouldn't be as much sidewall to soak up the bumps.

I'm also curious to see how they implement the driver-adjustable aero stuff. I read that they would only be able to adjust the wings if they were within a second of the car being overtaken. Is that going to mean that the car in front will be unable to defend? And they'll just be reserved to attempting a re-overtaking maneuver in the next long straight?

 

Yes it will be interesting if the 18" wheels get adopted as I believe that your assesment is a good one... suspensions will have to give a little more to make up for the stiffer sidewalls but I don't think that it will be very noticeable. The engineers will work their magic with the springs and dampers and in the end we will only be able to see the suspensions at work when the camera targets the cars in super slow-motion.

Yeah it kind of sounds that way doesn't it. Kubica has spoken out against the system already...

F1: Kubica Against ‘Proximity Wing’ Proposal

Robert Kubica doesn't support the proposal that would allow drivers to adjust their rear wings for overtaking purposes...

GMM | Posted June 16, 2010 GMM Newswire

Robert Kubica is the first Formula One personality to oppose plans for "proximity wings" in 2011.

After a meeting in Canada last weekend, teams agreed that drivers should next year be able to adjust their rear wings when they are following a car, in order to boost their chances of overtaking.

"I think that could be quite exciting," said FOTA chairman Martin Whitmarsh, insisting that drivers will not be able to use the straightline speed-boosting system to defend position.

FOTA's technical chairman Ross Brawn added: "It's going to be an enhanced F-duct, where the car that is following will be allowed to reduce its drag to attack the car in front.

"I think that will give a lot more opportunity for overtaking."

But Renault driver Kubica insists that Grands Prix have been exciting enough in 2010 without the radical innovation.

"And secondly," he told Germany's Auto Motor und Sport, "why is it only now that people are noticing that overtaking is difficult?

"I watched my first Formula One race in 1997, and there was not much overtaking then," noted the Polish driver.

 

This is dire news indeed...

But did we really expect anything else?


F1: Ecclestone Vows Never To Retire

Bernie Ecclestone will continue to head Formula One...

GMM | Posted June 21, 2010 GMM Newswire

He turns 80 later this year, but Bernie Ecclestone has vowed never to retire.

"I cannot stop," the sport's British chief executive told the German Sunday newspaper Bild am Sonntag.

"For me, to retire means to die.

"If I were to wake up in the morning and have no more problems or nothing more to worry about, then it will be no longer worth waking up," added former team owner Ecclestone, who rose to power with Max Mosley by his side in the late 70s.

He was divorced from his long-time wife Slavica last year, and is now frequently seen with much-younger new girlfriend Fabiana Flosi who is 49 years younger than Ecclestone. Flosi is involved with the marketing of the Brazilian Grand Prix.

Ecclestone confirmed that he now lives with Flosi in London.

"I will never give up F1," stated Ecclestone flatly.

 

Maybe we can hope for this:

 

Soooo, the FIA governs F1, WRC, MotoGP?, Le Mans?. I know missed some and I'm not sure about the last two...but I'm not sure what all falls under the FIA umbrella. Anyway, is there a Bernie counterpart for all the other forms of racing? Are the other championships as much of a cluster**** as F1? Does the Bernie equivalent have as much pull in the others as he does in F1?

 

Le Mans series is under the auspices of L'Automobile Club de l'Ouest (ACO) in Europe/Asia and IMSA in the US, not the FIA. The FIA does govern some sports car and touring car racing, like FIA GT and WTCC.

David Richards (ProDrive) is the "Bernie" of WRC. Don't know about the others.

 

This will be a long post I'm afraid as it takes time to untangle the web that Bernie has weaved. My thanks to Wikipedia!


Each type of motor sport has its Grand Poohbah... It is how the king rules his kingdom that ultimately decides the future of the land. Some are benevolent rulers, others despots.

Le Mans has the ACO, ALMS has Don Panoz, WRC has David Richards, NASCAR has Brian France, etc. but Formula One is different... It is the realm of one Bernard Ecclestone.

Men such as they are, very naturally seek money or power; and power because it is as good as money - Ralph Waldo Emerson



That being said, let me see if I can shed some light on this subject...

The FIA or Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile is the governing body that represent the interests of motoring organisations and motor car users. To the general public, the FIA is mostly known as the governing body for many motorsport events. The FIA is headquartered in Paris, and consists of 213 national member organisations in 125 countries worldwide. Its current president is Jean Todt.

The FIA General Assembly is the Federation's supreme governing body, consisting of the presidents of the FIA's numerous member clubs.

The head of the FIA and chairman of the General Assembly is the President. The President is elected to a four-year term by the FIA General Assembly, and from October 2005 onward will not be permitted to serve more than two terms. The previous President, who took office in 1993 and began his fourth term in 2005, is Max Mosely. Mosley did not stand for re-election in October 2009, with Jean Todt being elected president.

The 10-member FIA Senate consists the President of the Senate; the current and previous Presidents of the FIA; the Deputy President for the FIA Mobility and the Automobile group; the Deputy President for FIA Sport group; and five further members elected by the General Assembly.

The Senate also makes accounting and budget decisions, preparing draft budgets for the World Councils. The Senate forms sub-Committees on subjects such as Commercial Promotions, in order to make recommendations and review proposals.

The FIA World Council for Mobility and the Automobile governs all non-sporting FIA activities, and is headed by the Deputy President for Mobility and the Automobile.

The FIA World Motor Sport Council governs all the sporting events regulated by the FIA. It is also responsible for the promotion of safety in worldwide motorsport, the encouragement of standardized regulations, and the promotion of motorsport in new markets, including developing countries.

The council consists of the FIA President, and Deputy President, seven FIA vice-presidents, and 17 other members. The seventeen others must represent a national sporting authority for at least one international event.

The FIA International Court of Appeal is the final appeal tribunal for international motor sport. It resolves disputes brought before it by any of motorsport’s National Sporting Authorities worldwide, or by the President of the FIA. It can also settle non-sporting disputes brought by national motoring organizations affiliated to the FIA.

Other organizations and posts include the Mobility and Automobile Commissions, the FIA Deputy President for Sport, and the FIA Secretariat.

Now that is the FIA scheme in all this.

F1 is a different animal altogether in the way that it is administered due to Ecclestone machinations...

The curtain rises as Bernie enters the scene...

In 1974 the Formula One Constructors Association, or FOCA, was founded in order to increase commercial organisation of Formula One for the benefit of the racing teams. In 1978 Bernie Ecclestone became the executive of FOCA and fought the Federation Internationale du Sport Automobile (FISA) for control of F1 commercial rights.

Disputes were settled by March 1981 when the Concorde Agreement gave FOCA the right to negotiate TV contracts. Under previous arrangements, TV contracts were not very lucrative and were risky. When the Concorde Agreement ended in 1987, Bernie Ecclestone ceased being a team owner and established the Formula One Promotions & Administration (FOPA), to manage TV rights for the teams. FOPA would later become known as Formula One Management (FOM).

FOPA received 49% of TV revenues, 1% went to the teams, and 50% to the FIA. FOPA, however, received all the fees paid by promoters. In exchange for this FOPA paid prize money to the teams.

In 1995 the FIA decided to grant the commercial rights to F1 to Formula One Administration (managed by FOM) for a 14 year period. In exchange, Bernie Ecclestone would provide an annual payment.

SLEC Holdings was created as the holding company of the Formula One companies in 1996 when Bernie Ecclestone transferred his ownership of Formula One businesses to his wife, Slavica Ecclestone, in preparation for a 1997 flotation of the group.

In October 1999 Morgan Grenfell Private Equity (MGPE) acquired 12.5% of SLEC for £234 million. In February 2000 Hellman & Friedman purchased a 37.5% share of SLEC for £625 million and combined its share with that of MGPE to form Speed Investments which thus had a combined holding of 50% of SLEC. On 22 March 2000 German media company EM.TV & Merchandising purchased Speed Investments for £1.1 billion.

EM.TV's acquisitions caused it financial difficulties which in turn lead it to be acquired by the Kirch Group. Due to the agreement associated with their shareholding SLEC was controlled by Kirch, who hence controlled the board of Formula One Holdings (FOH). Due to huge losses and massive expenditure, Kirch's creditors put the company into recievership in 2002.

These banks dismantled the group. Kirch's share of SLEC was retained by BayerischeLandesbank, JP Morgan Chase and Lehman Bros. (through Speed Investments).

Before the banks could exercise their rights as shareholders they had to seek clearance from the European Commerce Commission. In the intervening period Ecclestone instituted changes in the boards of SLEC, FOH, Formula One Administration (FOA) and Formula One Management (FOM) which in effect put Bambino Holdings in control of those companies.

In mid-November 2004, the three banks sued Ecclestone for more control over the sport, prompting speculation that Ecclestone might altogether lose the control he has maintained for more than thirty years. A two-day hearing began on November 23, but after the proceedings had ended the following day, Justice Andrew Park announced his intention to reserve ruling for several weeks. On December 6, 2004, Park read his verdict, stating that "In [his] judgment it is clear that Speed's contentions are correct and [he] should therefore make the declarations which it requests". However, Ecclestone insisted that the verdict - seen almost universally as a legal blow to his control of Formula One - would mean "nothing at all". He stated his intention to appeal the decision.

The following day, at a meeting of team bosses at Heathrow Airport in London, Ecclestone offered the teams a total of £260,000,000 over three years in return for unanimous renewal of the Concorde Agreement, which expires in 2008. Weeks later, Gerhard Gibkowsky, a board member of Bayerische Landesbank and the chairman of SLEC, stated that the banks had no intention to remove Mr. Ecclestone from his position of control of F1.

In November 2005 CVC Capital Partners announced it was to acquire the 25% and 48% shares of Bambino and Bayerische Landesbank in SLEC and acquired the shares of JPMorgan Chase in December 2005. This deal was given approval by the European Commerce Commission on March 21 2006 and finalized on March 28.

Ecclestone used the proceeds of the sale of Bambino Holdings' share to invest in Alpha Prema to give the Ecclestone family an unspecified stake in Alpha Prema.

On March 30 2006 CVC purchased the 14.1% share of SLEC held by Lehman Brothers to give Alpha Prema full control of the Formula One Group. This placed Ecclestone in charge of F1 and its future.

A long and arduous trek with many a tangled web weaved by Bernie wouldn't you say?

Hope this helped you out benjam!

 

Right on Deb!

 

Probably the most interesting race they've had at that track. But that's usually the way it goes....you need a little chaos to make it interesting.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...-overreacting/

I gotta say I disagree, and not just because I'm an Alonso fan. It is a little BS. I mean it isn't like the couple seconds that he gained from those two fast laps kept him from getting shuffled back to 8th or 9th.

That being said, it does seem like Ferrari are complaining harder than most teams when something like this doesn't go in their favor. I think their not used to not getting their way.

 

The worst race I have ever seen in F1, that didn't involve fatalities. Where did those stewards come from? FIFA rejects?

Penalties that weren't penalties. What a crock.

 

'Splain something to me, please. When Webber went airborne, the talking heads--especially Hobbs--were all over themselves talking about Kovalainen should have done something differently. Maybe I just didn't see it, but exactly what could he have done? Or more to the point, how did Weber do anything except just run into him?

 

In racing it's the responsibility of those who are passing (actually lapping) another car to do the driving. Heikki was being lapped and should have maintained his line. Instead he moved left and Weber wasn't expecting it. If they were actually racing for position all bets would be off.

 

Quote from Webber:

“I was going a lot faster than Heikki (Kovalainen) and then a long, long way before the braking point he braked - about 80m before - and at that point I’m a passenger. The car, thank God, was very safe. I am okay, I lost some points, but in the end when you're up there, you're not worried about points, I was worried that I was okay and ready for Silverstone. You cannot control where you are going and how hard the hits are going to be. Of course, the hits were pretty hard but it’s good that I am okay. It was my Monte Carlo and Barcelona winning chassis and one which has secured a lot of pole positions, so the chassis has been good to me, and it has been good to me today as it saved me from some injures. I remain incredibly positive, we go on, it’s half way through the championship. Bl**dy hell, let’s get on with it.”