Vettel had the inside line for the upcoming corner and was ahead. It was his track. His helmet was by Webber's front tire. Contact was made with Webber's front and Vettel's rear tire. Vettel clearly had position front to back and line leading into the next corner. Webber should have given space.

They get paid to win first for the constructor. This is the really bad part as they cost the team a 1-2 finish and a clear lead in constructor and drivers standings.

I have not been racing as long as you. But have made and received the same move to me over the years. If you slam the door as Vettel did you usually end up in the kitty litter. 50% of the time the other guys does also. 10% of the time you get launched from tire/ tire contact.

 

I am not familiar with the FIA rule(s) on overtaking but let me quote you what the SCCA has to say about it.

I assume that the FIA rules are not much different.

Additionally, it is generally recognized that a successful pass has been made once the overtaking car has significantly placed itself ahead of the car being overtaken.

Please take note of GCR 6.8.1.B and GCR 6.8.1D as they would appear most pertinent in this case.

Sports Car Club of America General Competition Rules and Specifications

GCR 6.8 Rules of the Road

6.8.1 On Course Driver Conduct

A. It is the responsibility of all drivers to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.

B. All competitors have a right to "racing room" on the marked racing surface. "Racing room" shall be generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface so as to allow a competitor to maintain control of his car in close quarters, under racing conditions.

C. It shall be incumbent on all drivers to preserve the right of his fellow competitors to racing room on the race track. Abrupt changes in direction so as to impede or affect the path of a car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted by Officials as an attempt to deprive a fellow competitor of his right to racing room.

D. The responsibility for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely rest with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver has the responsibility to be aware that he or she is being overtaken and not to impede the overtaking car. The overtaken driver shall not block. Any driver who fails to make use of the rear view mirror (or mirrors), or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass, may be black flagged and/or penalized. (See 7, Penalties)

 

A pass is not complete until it's complete....One does not complete a pass by driving into or swerving at another car.

 

1) Define "significant". I hate gray areas in rules. It comes down to each individuals interpretation of the rule. As we have in this incident. I see Vettel as being 50% of his car in front of Webber and on the inside line for the upcoming corner. I therefore see Vettel as having significantly passed Webber. YMMV

A) Both drivers at fault here. Vettel swerving into Webber. Webber maintaining left to right lane positioning after loosing P1.

B) Gray area. Who had the most right? I see it as Vettel. You may see it as Webber.

C) Webber drove smooth lines so this does not apply.

D) Webber would be at fault here for obstructing the overtaking driver.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I believe that if I was in Vettel's position it was my race track to use and to leave one lane to the right for Webber to have racing room. If I was in Webber's position I would have given track position laterally to Vettel to save a collision and hoped he would have cooked the corner allowing me to go under at turn in.

I love watching F1 for all the controversy that happens. We just need Renault to step up and Ferrari to find their pace again to make this season really interesting.

 

I agree to disagree.....

Gotta love to be arm chair quarterbacks....

 

See, Webber gave enough room for Vettel to have that very inside line that he was attempting to pass on. It wasn't like he squeezed him onto the grass or anything, like you often see at the start of a race. I think that is where a little more maturity on Vettel's part, would have yielded significantly different results.

But if you're driving with the attitude where, "I'm 10cm away from the car to my right, my front wheel is in front of his, dies ist mein Weg. I can do what I want." You deserve to be in the kitty litter with two corners ripped off the car.

Especially with the ferrocity with which Vettel turned into Webber. It wasn't like a gradual, "ok, ummmm like, gimme a little room, sank you wherry much". He turned into Webber like a Driver's Ed. student in Hong Kong. AAAARGGH! Everyone run for your life!!! HE'S MAKING A LANE CHANGE!!!!!!

 

First off let me reiterate that these are the SCCA's rules of the road not the FIA's. The FIA may have more/less stringent rules. So, keeping that in mind...

Significant has been explained to me by race officials as 2/3 of the overtaking car ahead of the front wheels of the overtaken car. In most cases, if your cockpit (overtaking car) is even with or ahead of a the front wheels of the overtaken car, then it is considered "significant".

You are right both drivers would be at fault here...

Actually this is an area where interpretation/opinion comes into play more than the rule. Webber gave Vettel room but he was sure stingy about it and rightfully so as he was leading and the pass was for position (albeit from your teammate). Poor judgement on Webber's part in my assesment. Race your teammate hard give him the room and re-pass him if you are faster at a more opportune moment. Yes Webber gave Vettel "racing room" but he could have given him just a bit more for safety's sake.

Agreed...

We agree to disagree...

The rule states... The responsibility for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely rest with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver has the responsibility to be aware that he or she is being overtaken and not to impede the overtaking car. The overtaken driver shall not block.

In the video replay we can see Webber holding his line as Vettel overtakes Webber's RB6 then Sebastian turns into Webber. So in my opinion, Vettel chose to attempt a high-risk pass (not safe) and then further aggravated things by turning into Marc Webber's Red Bull.

This really falls into the category of an unfortunate racing incident. Both Vettel & Webber share a degree of responsibility and are to blame for coughing up valuable championship points (drivers & constructors) into the laps of their closest competitors (McLaren).

Such on track antics by the Red Bull squad can sound the death knell for the team's hope of winning a world championship if it continues.

Both Red Bull drivers need to learn that it is possible to race your teammate hard and not crash... Take a lesson from the McLaren boys Hamilton & Button. They raced for position and brought both cars home for a 1-2 finish.

Like all things in life it sometimes boils down to a matter of perspective doesn't it. This is one of those incidents that if Red Bull wins the championship will be relegated to the archives but if they lose the WC then the incident will be enshrined in the Hall of Infamy along with such notables as Senna v. Prost at Suzuka.

 

I kind of like that one. Along with several of Schumachers. The driver did what had to be done to win. Rules were written afterward to keep it from happening again.

I tried to find any black and white from the FIA on overtaking rules. There does not seem to be any.

 

I'm loving this conversation....really. Does this happen for stick & ball stuff?

 

I'm liking this post....

 

Nope.
If it can't kill you, it ain't a sport.

Now I can enjoy the beautiful game put is no where near the same thrill.

 

No, but they have umpires that blow a call and rob a young pitcher of a perfect game!

Jim



Oh....IMHO Vettel screwed the pooch on that passing deal..

 

That was so sad. It is a rare few individuals who ever get that chance and to have it be there and someone make a blatant mistake to rob you is just gutting.

 

Glad you enjoyed it. I went through a few drafts to make sure the tone was just right.

 

Yup, you hit alright. Spot on IMO..

 

Well it seems as if everyone wants to get into the act...

Now comes word from Max Mosely, yeah you remember him don't you? The defrocked FIA president is chiming in on the Red Bull fracas during the Turkish GP...

F1: Mosley Blames Webber For Vettel Collision

Former FIA president Max Mosley sees Mark Webber as the one at fault in the now-infamous collision between Red Bull teammates in Turkey...

GMM staff / GMM Newswire | Posted June 03, 2010 GMM Newswire


As Red Bull drew a line under the matter on Thursday, former FIA president Max Mosley waded into the debate about the collision between Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel in Turkey.

After a meeting in Milton-Keynes on Thursday, the team issued a statement that included a jovial photo of the teammates with the caption, "(Stuff) happens."

"I'm sorry for the team that we lost the lead of the race. Mark and I are racers and we were racing," German Vettel, 22, is quoted as saying.

With the blame-game apparently put to bed, Mosley however told the German newspaper Die Welt that he thinks the crash was Australian Webber's fault.

Interestingly, 70-year-old Briton Mosley is a close friend and former F1 ally of Red Bull's Austrian billionaire owner Dietrich Mateschitz.

Helmut Marko, also Austrian and Mateschitz's right-hand man on motor racing matters, also initially blamed Webber for the lap-40 shunt at Istanbul Park.

"From my perspective," said former long-time FIA president Mosley, "I do not think that Sebastian Vettel should receive the blame for the collision."

Mosley added: "At the time of the accident, Vettel was clearly faster than Webber. At this stage, he (Vettel) had the right and the duty to overtake."

Red Bull has revealed that Webber was running a fuel-saving engine setting while Vettel was not, and that the Australian radioed the pits to ask the McLaren-pressured Vettel to drop back.

Moreover, the team claims Webber's race engineer Ciaron Pilbeam failed to pass on a radio message warning the 33-year-old not to repel an attack by Vettel, whose tires were reportedly also in better shape than Webber's.

Marko aside, most of the F1 world said it was Vettel who aggressively turned right while alongside the sister RB6 driven by Webber.

"I do not agree," said Mosley, strongly siding with Marko, who along with team boss Christian Horner also attended Thursday's clear-the-air meeting.

Said Mosley: "It can be clearly seen that Vettel had already passed Webber before the collision, and at that time Webber should have given him more space - especially as they were already on the far left side of the track.

"Now you could argue (about the blame) if it had not been Webber's teammate, but as it was, he (Webber) should have respected his responsibility to the team.

"Remember, both cars were doing almost 300kph, so considering the risk, he (Webber) should have taken a chance to improve his position at another point in the race."

When told by the Welt interviewer that the same rationale also applies to Vettel, Mosley answered: "The crucial point speaks for Vettel and against Webber - that one driver in this moment was fast, while the other was slow."

Mosley, who speaks fluent German, also said he does not believe Red Bull's apparent desire to see Vettel ahead of Webber amounts to illegal team orders.

"I cannot see that," said the Briton. "Vettel was under pressure from Lewis Hamilton, he was faster than Webber, and to shake off the McLaren he needed to pass the slower Webber.

"Even if this situation was declared to the drivers by radio, this would not be a team order or a manipulation of the drivers' championship, but rather an explanation of a particular situation - (it is) necessary information for the drivers."

Comparing the situation to Ferrari's infamous place-swapping in Austria in 2002, Mosley said, "One was a conscious manipulation of the World Championship, the other is the legitimate explanation of a racing situation."


Interesting to note that Mosely attaches blame to Webber because he says that, "The crucial point speaks for Vettel and against Webber - that one driver in this moment was fast, while the other was slow."

So Webber is expected to relinquish his position just like that? Webber is fighting for a win and a championship right? In retrospect, Vettel wasn't that much faster as he could not overtake Webber cleanly, it took a high-risk manuver to try and get his RB6 around his teammate.

He (Mosely) also states, "Remember, both cars were doing almost 300kph, so considering the risk, he (Webber) should have taken a chance to improve his position at another point in the race."

Conversely could it not be argued that Vettel should have considered the risk of his untimely passing attempt and waited until another point in the race to take the lead, assuming he was that much faster than Webber?

Personally, I cannot see any driver just letting his teammate by while leading a race... "Alright mate, come on around me I've got no worries with that."

Smacks of the Scumacher/Barrichello debacle at the 2002 Austrian GP. I understand that team orders rule in F1, but it is a bitter pill to accept at times. I say let them race.. race hard, just bring the cars home in one piece.

Now here comes Mosely, stepping out of the shadows and throwing his .02 into the pot... His arguments are rather weak coming from someone who has a legal background. Oh well, Max just can't keep his hand out of the FIA/F1 pie... Who will we hear from next I wonder?

 

Warning Stereotype comment:






Go figure, Mosley supporting the German. Oooooo, burn! Yall see what I just did there?

Geez, I'm on a roll lately. Cynicism overload!!!

 

Mosely is irrelevant. Yesterday's garbage.

 

I've been studiously ignoring this thread since we've been out of town and I haven't seen the race (or qualifying or practice) yet. My 93 year old ex-philosophy professor has one rule regarding televisions--"If it ain't FOX News, it ain't on." Except that he doesn't say "ain't." I had to log on to post this, though:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/070620...f1-return.html

 

I don't think there's going to be room for Raikkonen if he decides to come back.

I haven't heard much lately from the WRC as to how he's doing. I know he had a bit of a bumpy start, but has secured some results.

 

We all know that Red Bull's Helmut Marko is keen on seeing Raikkonen return to F1 and joining the Red Bull team as he is an outspoken opponent of Marc Webber.

But it seems as if you're right benjam, Webber will be staying on (as well as Vettel) in 2011.

No room for Kimi... Yet.

Webber Confirmed at Red Bull

GMM Newswire, Milton Keyes, UK, 06/07/2010

Red Bull Racing announced on Monday that Mark Webber’s contract has been extended, meaning the Australian will continue to drive for the team next season. Webber, who leads the 2010 driver standings, has been with the Austrian-owned squad since 2007.

With Sebastian Vettel already contracted to Red Bull for next year, it means the team’s driver line-up will remain unchanged for the third season in a row.

“It was an easy decision to remain with Red Bull Racing,” said Webber, 33. “We began talking very early this year and were in a position to sign by the Barcelona Grand Prix. The decision to extend for a further year was a mutual one; it’s widely known that I’m not interested in hanging around in Formula One just for the sake of it and at this stage of my career, I’m happy to take one year at a time."

 

Out with the old and in with the new... That seems to be Bernie's new mantra these days. The old boy is rattling his sabre again and threatening to boot the Turkish GP off the F1 calender...

I was under the impression that Istanbul had inked a deal with Ecclestone shortly after the GP but I guess I was mistaken...

If it were to go I really wouldn't miss it all that much, except for the daunting, multiple apex, Turn-8. Plus I wouldn't have to get up so darned early to catch the live broadcast and that would be a boon.

F1: Turkish GP In Jeopardy?

F1 chief executive Bernie Ecclestone is reportedly pushing for a higher Turkish GP sanctioning fee...

GMM | Posted June 08, 2010 GMM Newswire

The future of the Turkish Grand Prix remains clouded.

One year ago, the boss of the country's motor racing sanctioning body said it would not be "easy" to come to a new agreement with F1 chief executive Bernie Ecclestone.

The track, actually operated by 79-year-old Ecclestone's company, is liked by the drivers but always very poorly attended. Attendance was better in 2010, but only because the price of tickets had been dramatically reduced.

It emerged earlier this year that Ecclestone was threatening to almost double the promoter's sanctioning fee to $26 million per year after 2011.

The Briton played down the rumors at Istanbul Park last month, insisting he is in talks about a new 10-year deal.

But a report in the local Zaman newspaper said Ecclestone is still pushing for the heavily inflated sanctioning fee increase.

He reportedly met with officials on the Saturday of the recent Turkish GP, and is quoted as telling them: "I leave it up to you. India and Arab countries are all ready to take your place."

One Turkish official said the situation will be clearer in two months.

"Turkey is definitely fond of hosting these races, and all this haggling is taking place for this," said youth and sports director Yunus Akgul.

"However, paying $26m for this organization every year is a big burden. The figure is very high.

"We've approached the deal from a different angle. Our last offer was that he relinquish the operating rights to Istanbul Park, and we guaranteed that the track would be reserved for the organization for three weeks before and during the races.

"In return, we wanted him to come up with a new offer," he added, admitting that if Ecclestone does not propose a lower fee, Turkey will cease to appear on the F1 calendars.

Bernie is such a player... a real wheeler-dealer. Talk of the US GP coming as a bolt out of the blue and now here's talk of a Russian GP also...

F1: Ecclestone Eyes Russian GP At Sochi In ‘14

As many as three facilities are in the running to host a future Russian Grand Prix...

GMM | Posted June 08, 2010 GMM Newswire

The year 2014 has been earmarked as a potential inaugural date for a Grand Prix in Russia.

F1 chief executive Bernie Ecclestone said in April that up to three venues were in the running for the Russian event, but that there is "a big push" from the resort city Sochi.

Located just north of the Georgian border and fronting the Black Sea, Sochi will also host the 2014 Winter Olympics.

"He (Ecclestone) suggests holding the first Grand Prix in autumn 2014," deputy regional development minister Yuri Reilyan is quoted by the business daily Vedomosti.

He added that Russia is ready to green-light construction of a circuit as soon as Ecclestone can "guarantee that the race will definitely take place, and the circuit will not be abandoned in the future."

The cost of the facility, to be built in the region of the Olympic Park in the Imeretinskaya Valley, is estimated at $200 million.

A draft project has already been agreed with regular F1 circuit designer Hermann Tilke.

"It's too early to speak about the budget. The final project is yet to be worked out, it will be done by an organization committee to be established by the end of this year," said Reilyan.

Never fails to amaze me that with all the money he has and gets off of F1 that it is never enough and that money takes precedence over the sport itself.

 

My mother could manage F1 better......and she's in an Alzheimer's unit.

 

THIS is racing!

 

I really do like that era of F1 racing (60's and 70's), back when the cars had some aero and passing was not as compromised as present day F1. Love to see the cars jink and squat under braking as the suspensions work. Cool!

It's nice to wax nostalgic every so often. That video reminds me of how far F1 has progressed, kind of like the Shell Oil video showcasing Ferrari through the years...