Till the next race.


Anyone here subscribe to F1 Racing Magazine? I got mine yesterday and there was an interesting artice (that I didn't get to finish) about the Toyota cars built for this year that didn't even get driven. I guess, according to the numbers, they would have been very good. They're saying the #s were comperable to the numbers that the teams that are winning had at the start of the season.

And right now they're just sitting in the Toyota Cologne, Germany facility. Bare carbon fiber, collecting dust. There were a lot of pictures and I love the way the cars look before they're painted. But the car looked very good. There was a lot of aero detail that was very sculpted and very pretty.

It's just too bad noone was able to pick those up and run with them.

 

Ebay!

 

I used to... nice magazine!

Say benjam can you post some pics from the article? Would be interesting to see what is wasting away back at Toyota's Cologne base.

 

Hmmm, maybe someone will pick them up (and not on Ebay )...


Villeneuve Joins With Durango In Bid

Adam Cooper | GMM Newswire | Posted July 17, 2010 Balen (BEL)


The proposed Villeneuve Racing F1 project is actually a partnership with former GP2 team Durango.

The Italian outfit announced its intention to enter some months ago, amid scepticism reflecting the fact that having failed to find enough money to stay afloat in GP2, it seemed an unlikely candidate for an F1 entry.

However, the addition to the mix of Jacques Villeneuve and his manager Rick Gorne – one of the founders of BAR – has clearly made it a more interesting proposition.

"Jacques is an energetic and willing guy," Durango team boss Ivone Pinton told website 422race. "I really hope together we will find a place. For Durango, to work with him is an honor and a privilege. We are talking about the son of a myth and a former World Champion. Even if I know him since he was 16. And I always said that, whenever he's OK, he's a great driver, who won in every series."

Pinton did not reveal anything about potential technical partners, although it’s worth noting that having ended its deal with HRT, Dallara could be available. Durango is also known to have talked to Toyota over the availability of their unused chassis sittting in Cologne.

"We still don't know where the car would be built, but the home of the team will be ours, in Italy," Pinton said.

Regarding Villeneuve’s role, Pinton said: “Together with being driver, I'm sure he will actively contribute to the company. I think he's preparing himself the job to do after he quits driving."

 

I'll see what I can do. We don't have a scanner. They've got to be floating on the interweb somewhere....standby.

 

Nothing that Bernie does really surprises me anymore but this news came as a shock!

His sense of greed really is overwhelming!

Then again at his age maybe the old boy has finally lost it...

Bernie Ecclestone says Formula One doesn't need Monaco

Adam Cooper / GMM | Posted July 19, 2010 GMM Newswire

According to Bernie Ecclestone, Formula One could survive "without Monaco". With India making its debut next year and the US returning to the 2012 calendar, the F1 chief executive is also desperate to tap into the Russian market. But he is believed to be confined to a new agreement with team bosses to cap the annual calendar at 20 races. With eight of the 19 current races, F1's traditional heartland of Europe is the most represented on the schedule, but those venues pay the lowest promotional fees. The Independent newspaper claims the average race fee is now $31.2m, but it is believed that historic Monaco pays nothing. "The Europeans are going to have to pay more money or we will have to go somewhere else," said Briton Ecclestone, 79. "We can do without Monaco," he added, admitting that axing the famous street venue is not likely but "they don't pay enough".

 

I told Hubby "Bernie wants to kill Monaco." Hubby's reply "we ought to kill that (and there was a small string of obscenities following)."

'Bout sums it up, doesn't it? Any hitmen out there?

 

At the risk of being the only time in history this will happen, I agree with Bernie. I hate Monaco. It was fine in the 60's and went downhill after that. I'm an F1 purist. I don't give a pair of fetid Dingo's kidneys about the glitz and glamor.

Before the torches and pitchforks show up, I thought this was interesting reading:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85320

"Ferrari was not given an immediate order by the FIA for Fernando Alonso to give back his position to Robert Kubica at Silverstone, according to newly-published information relating to the pit wall radio conversations that took place during the British Grand Prix.

FIA race director Charlie Whiting told Italian magazine Autosprint earlier this week that he advised Ferrari straight away to let Kubica retake his position from Alonso.

However, according to a detailed report in Gazzetta dello Sport today, the team's version of events is very different.

Massimo Rivola, Ferrari's team manager, told the newspaper: "This is not polemics, these are elements to clarify why Ferrari made certain decisions and the logic behind them, after Alonso's move on Kubica."

According to Gazzetta dello Sport, this is the chronology of the events from Ferrari's perspective.

13:31:05 The overtaking move takes place at Club and after one second Rivola calls Whiting, who replies after 11 seconds. Rivola asks: 'Have you seen the pass? In our opinion there was no room to overtake.'

26 secs after the pass, Whiting asks to be given time to watch the TV footage.

13:33 Ferrari makes a second radio call - 1m55s after the pass. Alonso has completed another lap plus one sector, and is behind Nico Rosberg and Jaime Alguersuari, while Kubica drops further back.

Whiting tells Ferrari that the stewards think Alonso could give the position back. Rivola asks: 'Is this the decision?'

Whiting replies: 'No, but that's how we see it.'

Rivola informs the team while Rosberg overtakes Alguersuari. On the GPS screen that shows the position of the cars, Ferrari sees Kubica dropping further back. Meanwhile, Alonso overtakes Alguersuari at Turn 2.

13:33:22 Ferrari makes a third radio call.

Rivola tells Whiting: 'Alonso doesn't have only Kubica behind. He would have to concede two positions now.'

While they discuss the matter Kubica is overtaken by Barrichello so Alonso would have to now give up three positions.

Whiting replies: 'We have given you the chance to do it or not. Things being this way, the stewards will hear the drivers at the end of the race, but I understand your position.'

13:35:30 Kubica stops so Alonso can no longer give the position back.

13:45:31 The stewards investigate the Alonso/Kubica incident. The monitors then display 'car number 8 under investigation', 14m26s after the pass.

13:46:26 Just 55 seconds later the stewards decide that Alonso should have a drive-through penalty."

 

I might have agreed with you pre-2008, but that was the year we actually went to Monaco. We were driving through that chunk of Europe during the week before the race, and we were able to walk and drive the course (rental Alfa), as were tons of others. It's such a small course, and even though I've stood next to F1 cars at vintage races, it was the first time that I really appreciated their size and speed. You really don't get a feel for this from just watching the tube!

No, I don't care for the glitz and glamour, either. As a city, Monaco sucks. Hugely expensive and full of itself. My opinions, of course, YMMV.

 

I don't know. For me, you take the good with the bad. At Monaco, the first couple laps are the most exciting, usually. The guys who didn't qualify well are trying to make up places like mad while their tires are still in good shape.

They do a bazillion laps because they're so short. So that gets rather tiresome.

I dunno though, it's tradition. If one should go, it should be the Hungaroring. I mean really, what's special about it? Nothing. Every year, it's the same thing. The race is pretty much decided on Saturday in Qualifying, because the race is almost guaranteed to be a parade. The only year that it was exciting was when Button won for Honda in the rain (one of my favorite races).

 

Aww Gromit, we love ya buddy and you know we wouldn't come down your street, with torches and pitchforks waving, yelling "Kill the monster"...

But I do disagree with you about Monaco though, in the sense that if it were to be removed, there would sadly be a great loss of tradition. The glitz & glamour is just the cheap frosting on the cake that draws out the general public. The people that understand the sport and follow it treat it (glitz/glamour) as a non-entity and work around it...

As an astute follower of motorsports you know that every series has its hallmark event. F1 has Monaco, Sportscars have Le Mans, Indycars have Indianapolis, NASCAR has Daytona, etc...

Those events help to promote the sport and in some cases define the sport. I believe they all have their place if for no other reason than as a keepsake of sorts... a place of cherished memories.

To lose Monaco and the tradition it encapsulates would be sad, especially if the whole issue is over money. You know its not like Bernie doesn't make enough $$$$$$$$$$$ already!

I too have been around the course (rental Golf / walking) and the first thing that strikes you is the impossibly small size of the course and then whilst driving the course, you begin to appreciate the skill it takes to maintain a vehicle that has 800-1000bhp (let alone the fire-breathing monsters that were the cars of the turbo era like the 1985 Renault at 1550bhp) between the barriers. Let me tell you its no mean feat and deb is right, televison doesn't do it justice.

Yeah Monaco is a bad venue for alot of reasons, congestion, cost, poor viewing spots (unless you are well funded, then again it goes back to cost), attitude, a parade-like race (passing next to impossible), etc. but what it lacks in those areas it makes up for in history.

While there I could almost sense the thunder of the GP cars of years past and the sound they must have made echoing off the buildings. I could imagine Hill, Clark and Rindt shooting out of the tunnel or Petersen, Stewart and Lauda vying for position entering St. Devote or Senna, Prost and Mansell chasing each other into the Virage Rascasse.

Glitz & glamour is for the non-informed, the people who show up to be seen and sun themselves on their yachts and verandas... I can say that all of us on this forum appreciate the race for what it truly represents... the test of a driver to race on an archaic circuit lined with barriers and to ply his trade flawlessly, avoiding any mishap for 77 laps at the fastest speed possible (2010 avg. speed 88mph/142 kph).



Yeah benjam that's about it really, but you can never factor out luck/fortune/destiny as it plays a role...

Recall the 1982 race when Prost, just 4 laps from the finish spun out damaging his wheel and was unable to continue, or Senna clouting the barrier while handily leading the 1988 race, or the 1992 race where with seven laps remaining, Nigel Mansell suffered a loose wheel nut and was forced into the pits, emerging behind Ayrton's McLaren, whom he could not get around, finishing second.

 

One thing about Monaco is that because it's a street course, you're able to really appreciate what's involved in the race. I mean, on most courses you have no way to go on the track (unless you've raced there, of course), so you're pretty detached from the track.

The bad thing about street courses, of course, is that the potential exists for a rough ride. Houston's CART layout, when we had our (few) GPs, is a great example--rougher than a cob. Monaco paves the course each year, though, and I think they do a good job at it.

The real gotcha with Monaco is passing. That can be bad, but then again, that also means qualifying is extra exciting. And things happen. Look at Kimi's accident that quashed Sutil's hopes for a good finish--or the tunnel crashes for more than one favorite.

 

Did anyone watch the Indycar race in Toronto last week? That course reminded me a lot of Monaco. You could get away with racing on a street course like that if it were similar to some of the other tracks in the schedule because the teams would build cars that were better suited to it but it is the only thin, bumpy and slow street circuit on the calendar. At least Valencia and Singapore are wide enough to have two cars get around one another and are similar enough to the purpose built tracks that the cars run pretty well on them.

Monaco has a TON of history and it is one of the racing events I would truly love to go and see in person but it is an anacronism and frankly doesn't make for that exciting a race.

 

That does make interesting reading. I think most regular F1 fans could see that what he did was gain an advantage by cutting a corner and therefore should be made to give back the position immidiately... I would have thought that as soon as Charlie saw the race footage he would have let them know Alonso was going to be penalized buuuuuut it had to go to the almighty stewards first.

It sounds like Ferrari thought that Alonso had pushed the limits a little bit and yet they still had him continue, while Charlie "advised" them to let Kubica back - suggesting what the decision of the stweards was going to be before the decision was made.

To be fair to Charlie he can't hand down a decision before the stewards have considered it and so he cant order Alonso to let Kubica pass, yet he knows what the decision is likely to be and so can "advise" the teams to take the right course of action and avoid a more serious penalty.

I'm all for ethics in motorsport and I think that Ferrari saw the pass as bad and tried to make their argument to the stweards instead of just letting the guy go back by and making it right. F1 is a cut-throat sport but that doesn't mean there is no place for sportsmanship.

Doesn't make too much difference anyway, had Carl Edwards been driving for Ferrari he'd just have driven the rest of the field off the road .

 

Hockenheim.....it really is too bad they ruined this track. I would love to see one of the new tracks on the horizon be a top speed track like the old Hockenheim or current Monza.

It was an ok race. The start was exciting. Seems Vettel is getting a bit of a reputation for trying to chop people when he gets a bad start.

I'm an Alonso fan, but I gotta say that I feel bad for Massa. I understand both sides. Matchet made the point that they drive for the team, they're employed by the team. But what a comeback for him to have. He had a great start, he was driving a great race.

Oh, BTW. Ferrari got fined $100,000 for team orders and will have to appear in front of the World Motorsport Council.

I wonder if Todt will repeal the ban on team orders. He sure seemed like a big fan of them when he was at Ferrari.

 

I'm not surprised Massa was told to give way. I wondered how long it would be before team orders were trotted out. It's obvious Ferrari is trying to dump Massa, and it's a real shame--he's a great driver, and just had a bad break last year. There's no evidence he isn't or couldn't be "back."

 

Felt bad for Massa as well and would have loved to seen him win this one - he definitely deserves it. But, Ferrari is wanting both championships so we all know why they did what they claim they didn't do. FA is now within one race victory of the drivers points lead with todays win and I am really enjoying the up and down nature of the driver standings this year with the new points system. Most drivers would have been counted out of the DWC race in the past but now you can have a few bad races and come back and not worry about someone finishing (or stroking it) top three the second half of the season and winning it.

Shades of poor Ruben's being made to play second fiddle to MS once he got a lead. I was happy FM obviously did it coming off a corner to let everyone know but Ferrari and other teams need to figure out a more subliminal way to do it - or order it. Maybe a simple status update of the car when normally you wouldn't get it but to everyone else it sounds innocent enough.

Benjamin ---- I too am disappointed that the old Hockenhiem is gone. Up until today I was still hoping one day that enough people would complain about the newer track that perhaps one day they return to the old layout. I did not realize that the old forest section was actually ripped up and planted over! One of the aerial shots left me with my chin drooping on the floor! So sad....we'll never see any of the new tracks done like that ever. Complaints will arise to spectators access, not enough TV time on the cars because they don't go by as much as these new tracks....blah blah blah..

 

That was one of the things I noticed when my wife and I were watching. I was like, "It looks like they reclaimed all the pavement because it's all trees and shrubs down there now." To me, that's history. Kind of like the huge banked oval at Monza. It's still there. It's an icon.

Hopefully the new US track lives up to all of Texas' hype. "Don't mess with Texas" and "Everything is bigger in Texas". Hopefully this track is huge.

 

Don't plan on shade in Austin. Hill Country tends to be fairly dry. Knowing Bernie, he'll schedule it for August.

As for "Don't Mess with Texas," that's an anti-littering slogan which doesn't work here, unfortunately. I've been to every state except Alaska (and have lived in Texas for 35 years), and I think Texas is the dirtiest. People think nothing of tossing stuff out of their trucks, and once they get to highway speeds, stuff flies out of pickup beds. The state has a "report littering" website, and I've reported several now.

 

Poor Felipe Massa... I too felt for him.

He got a great start and drove his heart out until the fateful radio transmission from his race engineer (Ron Smedley) came... "Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm that you understand that message?”

The concept of team orders can be an odious thing and a death knell to a driver's performance but if you drive for Ferrari the team comes first and the driver is just a tool to get the trophy back to the hallowed halls of Maranello (just ask Ruebens Barrichello). I guess that Ron Smedley summed it up best in his subsequent transmission to Massa by stating, “Good lad, well done, sorry.”

After that radio message the bubble burst and you could see the dissapointment in Massa's driving! Felipe deserves better!

If there is a silver lining in this affair, it is that Massa showed the F1 world what a team player and consumate professional he is by not going over the top and spouting off over the radio (i.e. like Mark Webber and his #2 driver comment) and maintaining a cool facade while being questioned by the media during the post-race interview.

Massa is a gentleman by all standards! He set the benchmark that much higher by his professional demeanor concernng this incident and one can only hope that he is vindicated by winning a world championship during his career... he is truly deserving.

 

Alonzo keeps saying that they went home with 42 points for the team and that is what it is all about . Well someone might want to point out that if they had not screwed around they STILL would have gone home with 42 points as a TEAM and everyone would have been talking about how well Ferrari had done . Of course he would not have had the majority of them and THAT is what it is all about . As I said earlier if he was truly faster he could have found a way to safely pass his team mate . Mclaren did a bit of side by side racing to the finish earlier this year so it can be done with out doing a Red Bull.

I'll be the first to admit that my opinion doesn't matter to anyone but me but I would think this guy might carry some weight .

Triple World Champion Niki Lauda scolded Alonso for blatantly denying he had won the race, thanks to a team order. The Independent newspaper said "nobody was fooled" by Alonso's argument that he wasn't aware of the fix.

"I've never heard a driver talk such (junk). He has no character," said Austrian great Lauda.


Randy
M7 tuning

 

Looks like the FIA is going to investigate the Ferrari team orders debacle at the German GP...

Ferrari referred to WMSC over team orders


Formula One Administration Ltd / 26 Jul 2010


Following their controversial one-two result at the German Grand Prix, Ferrari have been fined US$100,000 by the FIA after race stewards deemed they had breached sporting regulations and the case has been referred to the World Motor Sport Council (WMSC).

Ferrari driver Felipe Massa, who had been leading the Hockenheim race, moved aside to allow team mate Fernando Alonso past on Lap 49. A few moments before, Massa’s race engineer Rob Smedley had told the Brazilian "Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?"

Although Ferrari insisted this did not constitute a team order, the stewards decided they contravened Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations, which states that "team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited", and Article 151 (c) of the International Sporting Code, which outlaws "any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally".

The stewards then handed Ferrari the maximum fine they are empowered to impose on a competitor and forwarded their decision to the WMSC for its consideration, meaning the team could face further sanction.

Maintaining Ferrari’s innocence, team principal Stefano Domenicali stated: “As for the stewards’ decision, given after the race, in the interests of the sport, we have decided not to go through a procedure of appealing against it, confident that the World Council will know how to evaluate the overall facts correctly.”

For his part, Massa suggested he and not the team had made the decision to surrender the lead to Alonso: “In my opinion this was not a case of team orders: my engineer kept me constantly informed on what was going on behind me, especially when I was struggling a bit on the hard tyres: so I decided to do the best thing for the team, and a one-two finish is the best possible result, isn’t it?”

Maybe, just maybe they will see what the rest of us saw and demote Alonso to 2nd and give the win to Massa.

 

There, fixed it for you.


Max, what do you want him to do? Admit that he'd won because of team orders? Massa didn't even do that and he was the one that was visibly furious, why would Alonso? It seems silly that you think he should say something that would get his team in trouble.....that's what the guys on the wall do. "Sorry mate."

 

Thanks benjam!

I forgot about the incident at the Australian GP when Hamilton bad-mouthed his team saying, “Who’s call was it to bring me in? F***ing terrible idea.”

Bad form Lewis... Bad...

At times, I tend to forget the inane/caustic comments made in the heat of battle over the radio...

 

These guys are all pretty intense and if they think they had a chance to win and it was taken away then sometimes they loose their cool. Webber and Vettel were so close in the championship and Weber had more race wins so calling him a "number 2" and giving the wing to Vettel was a questionable call. Especially when Vettel had damaged his rather than having it fail. Just defending Weber a little bit. He really did prove his point on the track before his comments as well

Ferrari should end up with a pretty stiff penalty for what they did. It is clear to everyone, including the drivers I suspect. They just can't say anything about it! The WMSC can't change race results (I don't think - only the stweards can do that) but they can take away the points.