I wouldn't think they'd take away points, maybe just a slap on the wrist. IMO, it wouldn't make sense to take away points because it would have been a Ferrari 1-2 anyway. Hmmmmmm.

Sabre, I just remember that one because Lewie tries to put up this cool, you cant get under my skin, fasade. And that's one of the few times he's let it come out in public. I'd heard rumors of his tantrums when Alonso was his teammate, but that's just what they are, rumors.

 

You know benjam, this has been such an acrimonious season with many sharp statements by all, that Lewis' outburst was relegated to the north-40 in my mind... That or I'm just getting old and forgetful.

We've talked about this (outbursts, behaviors, etc.) beforehand on this forum and I'm sure that we all agree on the fact that the intense pressure these people are under eventually gets to them and their emotions seep out from under the public facade they project of being cool and in control.

Lets face it, these guys are human after all is said and done. Like Guitarfrk stated, I'd be tempted to loose my cool also if a certain win was taken away by an error in judgement (either my own or by the team).

It just goes to show us how fallible our heroes really are sometimes and that they, like us, suffer with the same human foibles.

 

I found an interesting article, a Ron Dennis interview, that contains some sketchy information at the end concerning the future of F1 in the USA...

USF1 Chiefs Lied, Damaged F1 In America

GMM Newswire / 28 July 2010

Bosses of the failed USF1 project lied and did great damage to F1's potential to break into the crucial American market, McLaren chief Ron Dennis said on Saturday during his visit to the NASCAR event at Indianapolis. He said British journalist and American engineer Peter Windsor and Ken Anderson, the joint principals of defunct USF1, "didn't tell the truth" as they pushed to debut in 2010. "They never had the depth, they never had the understanding, they never had the resources," Dennis charged. According to Autoweek, he said they did "more damage to F1" than any of their predecessors, and insisted that "no one in F1 stuck their foot out" to thwart USF1's success. Meanwhile, as Austin pushes to get ready for its 2012 hosting of the United States GP, Dennis revealed that there are two other projects to bring F1 racing back to America. "There are three very, very serious and separate projects," said the Briton, declining to give details because it's "not for me to share."

Is Ron blowing smoke or has anyone heard anything else about this?

 

Going a bit off topic but still F1 related you may enjoy these two short video clips .

Randy
M7 Tuning

Its nice to see that Lewis , as well as many of the other drivers I am sure , has a real appreciation for those that came before him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yCsdnUW2Ww




And then this one . It is all quite funny and these guys have WAY too much time on their hands but the ending was not at all what i expected. Lets say team Mclaren have a really good sense of humor


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiLoANg6nNY

 

Thanks Randy for posting the video of Hamilton driving Senna's McLaren... most enjoyable!

Nice to see that Lewis has respect for those that came before him, a quality that it seems some drivers never garner. Additionally, driving the MP4-4 must have added to that level of respect. The cars of the turbo era were monsters, no doubt about it, and most memorable.

Also on a side note...

IMHO, if you want to improve the competitiveness of today's F1 racing maybe it should revert back to the turbo era (or earlier) as far as the aerodynamics are concerned.

It took skillful, fast hands to manuver one of those liquid fast turbo cars around a circuit! That and a huge amount of bravado to pull off a pass like the one in the Top Gear video!

The sequence showing Piquet passing Senna in a full opposite lock power slide is a powerful argument for having F1 cars without all the barge boards, winglets, F-Ducts etc.

Plus the F1 cars of that era look Oh So Good!

Simpler... Yes... but they provide more visual excitement and make for more competitive racing.

My .02 cents...

 

But then you would loose the idea of technological superiority which is what F1 has always been about - cars on the absolute mechanical edge. Today though we have lost that too... Everyone knows you can build an engine that makes enough power to make the driver black out and a car that can stick to the track so well that the driver would pass out in corners too, meaning that developing all that would be pointless cause no sucker can drive the damn thing.

The cars of the turbo era were great to watch and a great driver could pull of a jump-up-from-the-couch-and-crap-your-pants-pass or move. Then he'd keep going and the car would explode 10 laps later because the car was so close to the mechanical edge or maybe it wouldn't... that was what made it exciting and fun.

As for competitive racing - did they really or was it just that the driver made more difference because the car was more difficult to drive? When I was growing up you would generally see only a couple of cars on the lead lap at the end of the race whereas these days there are generally quite a few more. So more exciting - yes, more competitive (as in cars closer together) - not always.

F1 needs to look at the future and see what is coming next. Allow deisel cars (ala ALMS/LeMans Peugots and Audis). Allow hybrids (although several have tried and none have made a competitive hybrid racer yet). Allow electric cars if you can build one that is competitive. Allow fuel cell cars. All of these have the advantage of possibly having less weight at the start of the race than a gasoline powered vehicle, making for more exciting racing as the gas cars loose ground at the start then make it up as they burn off fuel.

And yes... please chop off some of the very silly looking aerodynamic aids (F-Ducts are out next year though) and develop a car that is hard to drive and let the drivers come out!

I have no idea whether anything like this would work but it seems to me the F1 used to be where new technology was developed, now it seems that other series do a better job of that and F1 is about finding the newest loophole in the rules and exploiting if before anyone else does.

Whatever else happens though please run cars close enough to the edge that they fail once in a while. Not just the HRT, Virgins and Lotuses but give me a front running car that will be super fast but fragile and another one that is a little slower but more reliable. That makes for some fun during a season!

 

I know that Monticello is still trying to secure a date...I have a friend who is a friend of one of the owners.

 

True... F1 has always touted the fact that it is about developing technical superiority on the race track but as you stated, it has lost that somewhat in today's rendition of the F1 car.

I find it difficult that F1 claims itself as the crown of technology especially with the way today's cars are restricted (rules changed to "help" make the racing more competitive: e.g. tires - grooved to slick, smaller rear wings, etc.) Technical innovation has been stymied in an attempt to make for more passing. Engines are becoming detuned for reliability, and no one is making an attempt to use another powerplant other that the gasoline engine. KERS is a joke, a thinly veiled attempt for F1 to look "green". F1 needs to emulate ALMS and embrace new technologies if they are to retain the concept of being the pinnacle of technological advancement in racing.

I suppose that what F1 needs to do is to acknowledge what it wants to be. You cannot be all things to all people... Please everyone and you please no one. Is F1 about the racing or is it about technological innovation? They have been walking a fine line between technologically superior cars and putting on a good show for the public (vis a` vis NASCAR where its all about the show)? At times F1 seems to have suffered due to a true definition of itself.

Add to that collateral factors like the addition of lackluster circuits that make for parade-like races or the dropping of some traditional venues (Montreal, Spa, etc.) in a rampant quest for more $$$$$ (thanks Bernie) and you can clearly see that F1 has lost some of its luster through the years (But that is altogether another can of worms...).

My apologies... I guess that I should have elaborated on this a bit more.

The turbo tech era made for some great fire-breathing brutes... Monsters that needed sure, fast, hands behind the wheel to control them.

Drivers always make a difference and certainly the drivers of that period were exceptional but I believe, no more so than today's current crop of F1 talent.

My comment though was in reference to the aerodynamics of that time period not necessarily the turbo technology itself.

Adopting simpler aerodynamics (such as the cars had during the Turbo-era) would make passes, like the one in the Top Gear video (Piquet v. Senna), a real possibility (not the norm, mind you, as this pass is extreme). The passing vehicle would not loose so much downforce (due to today's cars being so aero influenced) as to make passing a difficult/impossible proposition.

I would tend to believe that the disparity you speak of, between the cars of the Turbo-era, is due more to engines and the HP they produced (or failed to produce) than to aerodynamics, which is why you would generally see only a couple of cars on the lead lap at the end of the race (blown turbos, engines going kablammo, etc.).

Goes back to what I was saying earlier, tech v. show... What do you call the beast? There must be a way to incorporate both concepts so that parity is established. I'd like to believe that F1 can do this...


Agreed!

Today's F1 car lacks the graceful lines of F1 cars of the past... The cars of the 70's & 80's (not to mention the 60's era cars) had a smooth, mean, aggressive look to them, what with the absence of barge boards, vertical fin extensions (over the engine bay), F-ducts, winglets, etc.

Mind you, it wasn't always perfect as I can recall some designs with huge periscope air intakes and such, but the cars of the past just looked so much better to me than todays F1 racer, IMHO.

 

I think there'a very simple way to make F1 more competetive and technologically relevant - get rid of pneumatic valve trains. They will never be used on street cars, and contribute nothing to fuel economy or useful tech - to street driven cars - unlike turbos and even aero aids.

Getting rid of 18-20K revs will bring the horsepower down and the torque up. More torque means more passing opportunities.....

 

Maybe, but I'd like to see the formula more open rather than more closed. reducing the rev limit would also loose the distinctive F1 sound.

I just googled "Ugly f1 cars" and found this rather amusing thread.

http://www.f1rejects.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=96

Old now but has a selection of why no F1 designer should ever be trusted with a pen. There have definately been a selection of f1 cars that were the triumph of function over form... oh, and these are proper design disasters, not just cars with random pieces of carbon fiber duct taped all over them.

Sabre you nad me should run f1. It would work so much better

My final idea to make it more competitive was to put some traffic out on the track. I think few busses, pedestrians and SUV-driving soccer moms talking on their cell phones would make Bernie's "show" a lot more fun. Then we could open up the technical rules since we wouldn't need the cars to be equal to make for a good race!

Just imagine the radio calls when all the whiney F1 drivers get stuck behind a bus!! priceless!!

 

Excuse Me!?!
Did I hear Vettel blame Mark during his train of excuses for the drive through in Hungary?

 

Nope...you heard right. I think the "radio went out" was a b/s excuse as well. It sure seemed to be working when he was crying about having to come in. He threw this race away by his lack of concentration so he deserved it...

Man, do I think less of him after this deal. What a spoiled baby..

 

Vettle is adding to his reputation as the biggest waste of pole positions in F1 history. Add to that his status as the biggest B I T C H on the track and now number 2 on the team its going to only get worse.

Randy

 

Vettel's comments after the race show why he isn't leading the points standings in the World Championship. He doesn't seem like the smartest driver in Formula 1. He is an extremely talented, fast driver, which is why he qualifies well and has a few victories, but he again made stupid mistakes and it cost him the victory. The problem could just be that he is still young, and a few years worth of maturity (i.e. losing the championship while having the best car) might do him a world of good.

Mark Weber's drive in the Hungarian GP reminded me of what Michael Schumacher used to do. He not only drove a smart race, and held his emotions in check, but was amazingly fast and took care of the fragile super-soft tires for over half the race distance. Today's race shows Weber to be worthy to be World Champion, though I hope Hamilton can come back and win it.

 

Well he didn't directly come right out and blame teammate Webber but... Well, let's just say that SebVet implicated Webber as part of the problem.

Just listen to Vettel's comments during the FIA post-race interview...

"...somewhere in the first stint I Iost the radio connection and I didn’t hear anything. I saw the safety car boards and was waiting for instruction when the safety car would come in. I didn’t see the lights. Also Mark, usually the leader when he does the re-start, he tries to drop back and then dictates the pace. Mark was very close and I was warming up my car. I was sure we had another lap, so I didn’t really understand. Then I saw Mark and the safety car at the second last corner, quite a big gap to myself. I noticed the safety car going into pits, so that must be the re-start and I was caught out, so I lost a lot of momentum and lost a lot in the first couple of laps which was not the intention. Then I got the drive-through. But during the race I did not understand. Pretty unlucky."


Poor ole Sebastian needs to step up and admit his own error(s) rather than looking for esoteric factors in reference to his making mistakes. As a driver he knows (or should know, seeing as he is a paid professional) that when the lights go out on the safety car the show is about to begin anew and to blame his loss of the radio and implicate Webber ("when he does the re-start, he tries to drop back and then dictates the pace") for his making such a mess of the re-start is lame... very lame.

No kid, this one is parked on your doorstep and the sooner Mr. Vettel, that you drop the "poor me, it's someone else's fault" lamentation, the better a driver you will become, cause no one likes an unjustified whiner.

Well said 4G0tten and very true...

Watching Vettel during the post-race interview and seeing his expression there and while on the podium told me all I needed to know.

Maturity does come at a price and it is a payment that Vettel is overdue on. Hopefully he will learn some lessons along the way, and quit behaving like a spoiled brat/prima donna.


On another note, and maybe in the same vein, I was appalled by Schumacher's on-track antics with Barrichello!

I guess that sometimes some drivers never grow up and that age does not necessarily confer maturity!

I admire Schu's ability but unfortunately there is no room for his style of ruthless behavior with other competitors, something that has manifested itself many times during his driving career.

We saw this type of behavior earlier this year in Canada (not to mention in seasons past) and now again it re-surfaces. Perhaps the FIA needs to give out a stronger reprimand to Michael, instead of the tepid 10 place grid penalty imposed for the Spa race.

Opinions anyone?

 

Sabre, I agree on all counts.

Seb looked like a little kid pouting in the interview room after the race. Someone needs to take him behind the shed and beat him.

I feel like Michael is writing checks that his old, out of shape, body cant cash. One of these days, he's going to try some maneuver like that....and something bad is going to happen.

 

Thanks Guitarfrk for the link to that thread, it is most illuminating!

There's all the evidence you need to support your belief (...no F1 designer should ever be trusted with a pen.).

There's some real "winners" in that group that severly challenged my eyes ... Oh the pain... the pain!

I'd forgotten about (and thankfully so) some of those "innovative designs" ... like the Lotus 88B or the wings sprouting from the 2001 Arrows and Jordan cars not to mention the sidepodless Ligier JS21...

Yeah buddy, you and me, and we dump Bernie... "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!"

 

The Red Bull team is not helping things. They should get behind Webber to teach the ego centric Vettel some manners. There have been a lot of very quick drivers who never win a championship due to their inability to master driving, the strategy of driving, and their ability to act within a team strucure.

My vote is with Webber. How I long for the days of the wee Scott

 

+1

Well if you believe the team principle, Christian Horner, new parts will go to the driver leading in the points...

At present that would be Mark Webber, much to the dislike of Helmut Marko and, need I say, Sebastian Vettel.

Jackie Stewart gets a nod but I will go a bit further back in time and long for another Scot... Jim Clark.
Before my time, but if history paints him truly, he was; softspoken, immune to fits of childish behavior that would endanger his fellow competitors, a true gentleman, but oh such a force when on the track... a real racer, hard but fair!

 

I'm kinda pulling for Weber too even though, being English, I should have someone from Mclaren. Weber and Massa are the only two who really haven't behaved like babies this year and whined thier asses off. Massa even managed to keep his mouth pretty much shut during the team orders debacle in Germany. I almost feel bad for Vettel because he is clearly still a little too immature to maximize his oppotunities. He is super fast but not very consistent and that is not a recipie for a world Champion.

Plus, we just got rid of one German world champion, do we really need another one so soon?

On a side note, what's up with all the drivers sporting stubble this weekend? seriously... it was like a bear parade at times!

 

Well folks, maybe we've been a little too hard on poor old Vettel. He can't be all bad as he's out driving a MINI while in Hungary...


Official Release: Red Bull Racing driver Sebastian Vettel drives a MINI Countryman during his stay in Budapest at the F1 Grand Prix. The car having its market launch only in September was offered to Sebastian by BMW Group Hungary. The driver currently 4th in the World Championship was happy to have the car at his disposal – he sat excitedly into the new MINI model and drove straight to the Hungaroring from the airport. The black MINI Cooper S Countryman was delivered from the new model’s international media launch to Budapest to be Sebatian’s companion on the Hungarian roads and was handed over by Henning Putzke, Managing Director of BMW Group Hungary.

 

Sorry, but the Spanish shrimp holds that title... Don't believe, just ask Felipe...

Vettel is a spoiled child who is caught up in his own hoopla... If it weren't for RB racing, he would just be another also-ran in the overall scheme of things... In F1 it's all about the equipment... Any of the current crop of drivers could become world champ, given enough time in a superior chassis...

On the opposite note, nothing worse than making laps and just staying out of people's way... A lesson that MS could learn with a bit of humility...

 

+1,2,3,4,5,6!!

All too true....

 

Ben, I share your fear that something bad will eventually happen if Michael continues his errant ways!

On another forum one of the members summed up Schumacher's driving very well stating:

"There is a difference between creative defensive driving and blocking, a difference between blocking and deliberately impeding another driver, and a difference between impeding another driver and reckless endangerment. That move was the latter, a black flag move, and one of the cheapest things I've ever seen."

I couldn't agree more and that type of driving needs to be addressed before calamity ensues!

 

Its funny. I was watching that move again and talking to my Dad last night. There was a big hoopla in IndyCar at Edmonton last weekend because Castroneves was penalized for blocking Power on a restart after Power got a run on him. The move looked very similar to Schumi's move except that power never got alongside Castroneves, and so was never pushed into the grass.

Two points from this: 1) why (again) does it take F1 SO LONG to hand out a penalty? It was clearly a stupid move and clearly dangerous driving so why not give him the damn penalty while the race is still going on and stop this carrying over crap.

2) Where do you draw the line between defensive driving and blocking. It seems that F1 has it to loose and Indy has it too tight, surely there is a nice balance we can find for open wheel racing where we can let the drivers practice their craft but still keep it safe and exciting for the fans...