Well, the thing with road courses now, they're so neutered after Bernie has gotten ahold of it, it's ridiculous. Look at Singapore and Abu Dabi, they're street tracks that are wide and look like the track in Turkey.

I'd like to see a track in the US that is built to test the driver and the machinery. And I'm thinking of something like the classic Hockenheim Ring. I have tingles just thinking about it. I think it'd be enough go for the Nascar boys and fans to have fun. It'd be another ultra-low downforce track besides Monza. I wanna see some engines go sky high. I wanna see some good slipstreaming and bravery on the brakes.

 

I forgot to ask--what happened with the Bahrain circuit this year? Why was it so rough in one area? Did the asphalt melt in the heat? Bad contractor? Has anyone heard some opinions?

 

I would love to see F1 back at it's traditional US home: Watkins Glen. I think that following the European GP example, there should also be a North American GP at a couple of tracks on the western side of the continent.

But where, is the question.

 

I think the Glen would need a MAJOR update if F1 were to come back to it. I do agree, I would love to see it there. But the track surface is about as smooth as the Rockies and one of the reasons they left (from what I've heard) is that it's kind of in the middle of nowhere. Hence why they moved it to a city like Detroit or Las Vegas.

If they wanted overtaking they wouldn't do it, but they could hold it for the Long Beach Grand Prix, along with IRL. That'd be kind of cool. It'd be likely to get good attendance because two big series have races at the same track on the same weekend....or put a week between them.

 

I have no reason to doubt your expertise Gromit and it is truly sad news that a challenging track has been watered down.

I've always felt that Laguna Seca (before being neutered) was a very challenging circuit.

I would have loved to witness today's F1 machinery take on the Corkscrew. I believe that would have been a memorable sight.

You are so right deb... Keep Monaco because nothing but nothing says F1 (to the common fan and F1 devotee) more than the traditional race thru its streets.

As far as the rest of the street circuits are concerned... they can be relagated to the trashbin. F1 cars are made for speed... speeds that cannot be achieved on a bumpy street circuit.

Additionally, trying to spectate at a street race (I attended all the Detroit GPs and vividly recall) is darn near impossible. Fences, and concrete barriers that obscure the line of sight to the action on track (concrete barriers were so tall that the cars would dissapear behind them with only the airbox visible) hamper the enjoyment of spectating.

I agree with your choice of Road America deb, and none other than Mario Andretti (a man who knows his race circuits) has endorsed RA as his choice for the new home of the USGP. I can personally attest that RA is an awesome circuit and very challenging for a driver!

Road America is a true driver's circuit and F1 should feel at home there. Accomodations at the 5 star Kohler Inn, 6 miles from RA, in nearby Kohler, WI will appease the high roller F1 crowd and also the Osthoff Resort in Elkhart Lake... In fact Elkhart Lake has become quite sophisticated of late. I was quite surprised to see what once was a sleepy Wisconsin hamlet become an upscale mecca for race fans on my last visit to RA for the ALMS.

Road Atlanta is a wonderful track also and Don Panoz has built many improvements into the facility (why it even has a world class hotel on the grounds - The Inn at Chateau Elan) and the track is a blast to drive!

Road Atlanta lies in contrast to what is usually found in the south, a road circuit lost in the forest of NASCAR ovals, but it is a gem!


So true, sadly so true...



That's a good point benjam and one that is hidden in the name of safety!

I'm afraid the real reason is not so much safety as it is the issue of litigation. Yes the ever-present spectre of the lawsuit looms over any racing series/venue and I'm sure that Bernie (being the money grubbing person that he is) is terrified at the thought of a lawsuit and having to loose all those dollars (Euros, Yen, Schekels, et. al.)


I like the way you think benjam but as alluded to earlier by deb, it involves cost and the subsequent return on the investment (...And NEW costs massive dollars with an iffy return, as several countries are discovering.)

In today's economy I am afraid that a new circuit is just not an option.

Spoken like a true sage Gromit!

If the USGP has a traditional home it has to be Watkins Glen.

The problem again is what it would take to bring the Glen up to current F1 standards ($$$$$). Bernie is going to want upgrades and like deb says, ... He wants NEW, with all the bells and whistles of NEW. That would be a pretty massive undertaking for the Glen.

I also think it would be great if we had 2 USGPs (East & West) as in the past and that they both be held at REAL road circuits. I might make an exception and give a slight nod to Long Beach but really it is still a street circuit and I'd rather see F1 do battle on true road courses!

If Seca is now neutered, I too wonder what a suitable venue would be for the USGP West... Decisions... Decisions.

 

And unfortunately, not ours to make.

I get periodic email surveys from F1 magazines/organizations of one sort of another, and I always ask for an American track. My voice is probably smaller than a flea on an elephant, though...

 

What about Sears Point? The only series I've ever seen race there is Nascar, and it seems pretty tough to pass. There are a couple areas where you might be able to slipstream up behind someone, but it almost seems just when you start getting a run, here comes a turn.

Seeing how weak the dollar is, maybe some European investors would be interested in building my track. lol. The thing with Indy is that it is extremely spectator friendly, IMO. It's just too bad that it's such a mickey mouse track...and it hasn't gotten any better since they revamped it for MotoGP.

Now I feel it's my responsibility to bring up Canadia. Circuit Gilles Villeneuve technically is a street course.....well, part of it is. And it's one of my favorite tracks and very hard on brakes! Albert Park is a street course too. And for some reason, it always seems to have surprises. From last year's gran carambulage (sp?) at the end with Kubica and Vettel, to the numerous starts that featured someone getting launched over the back of someone else. An then the one that everyone remembers, 2002 with the huge wreck at the start and Webber finishing with 2 pts in the Minardi.

I'd suggest outsourcing the American GP to Mexico if there wasn't the possibility of getting turned into a coke-mule....or worse.

Deb, I don't get it. I've always heard the squeaky wheel gets the grease and I keep hearing squeaking coming from American fans, sponsors....even European sponsors that want to expand to the States. But still no race.

 

I thought of Sears Point, but like you stated, it looks like a difficult circuit to overtake on and just when you get a head of steam up here comes a corner.
Maybe Gromit (or others) can shed some light on this?

I'm afraid that any established US road course would face the daunting task of bringing their respective circuit into line with the current F1 standards (Bernie's Law) and considering the economic climate it probably has as much a chance as the proverbial ice cube in hades...


Interesting point you make... I look at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve and Albert Park as hybrids... not a true street circuit and not a true road course but something in between. The drivers/team seem to enjoy Circuit Villeneuve and the venue is ideal as it is metro yet isolated so no disruption of Montreal's rhythm occurs. I see that Australia is looking to move from Albert Park to a brand new circuit to be built at Avalon - that is Avalon, Victoria. [/quote]

I see you are a fan of David Hobbs and his Hobbisms... I love it!

Isn't it amazing that there seem to be enough voices calling out for a USGP yet no one is listening or it's falling on deaf ears!

I believe that it all surrounds the issue of Bernie wanting the lion's share of the take (TV rights, fees, gate reciepts, etc.) but that's already been discussed ad-nauseum. Until Bernie relaxes his grip on F1 and his rabid desire to make money at the cost of the sport, I'm afraid that nothing will change...

 

Two words, starts with Bernie. And it's not Madoff.

 

I'm puzzled as to how its been "neutered". The only difference I noticed after the last changes is the run off area at the hairpin is now paved not gravel. Its still a fun track.

 

We're seriously thinking of going to the Montreal GP (held on Hubby's 67th birthday!). Any suggestions on where to sit, stay, whatever? Tour package or no? We'll be driving, from Houston. Alas, he says "not only no, but hxxx no," to taking the MINI.

 

Where's his MINI motoring spirit? In the past 18 months we've taken the JCW to Sebring twice (2400 miles round trip), Petit Le Mans twice (1200 miles round trip), Road America (900 miles round trip), and Fort Collins (1800 miles). That's about 10,000 miles.

 

Btwyx I really don't know exactly how Laguna Seca has been neutered so I will have to defer to another's expertise, in this case Gromit. Having been at the track, Gromit can shed some light on the changes and how it affected the circuit's persona... How about it Gromit can you throw in your $0.02 on this one?

 

deb, I've talked with some folks that went to the British GP several seasons back with Grand Prix Tours and they said the exprience was memorable, well worth it. Grand Prix Tours has wonderful package(s) for the Canadian GP. Perhaps you may wish to look into this.

If so here's the handy hyper-link at your disposal below...


Now I for one, think that your suggestion to your husband on taking Zippeee to Montreal is a good one...

Ahh... the open road, a MINI beneath you, and the prospect of a Grand Prix when you reach Montreal, well that sounds like a recipe for great fun!

Too bad your husband lacks the entusiasm to pursue it...

 

Laguna Seca before.....



Laguna Seca after....


Turn this 90º clockwise to match first image.

In the original track layout, you at least had a long sweeping curve that allowed some passing.

In the new layout, they took the sweeper out, and installed three very short straights. None of the straights at Laguna Seca are long, and cars don't even get up to speed before they have to slow down again. It's like an autocross course for race cars. It's painful to even watch an IRL race there. Great for SCCA, Historic, and MotoGP. But anything else would be crap.

It's now a 2.2 mile, Mickey Mouse track.

The only reason Laguna Seca ever comes up, is because of the Corkscrew. Just forget about it. The track is too small, in a very bad location, and one track feature isn't going to make it work.

 

Thanks for the info! Yes, it's indeed sad that I can't convince him. Part of it is the amount of luggage space, as we'd likely be carrying camping gear, but most of it is his personal comfort. I've driven my MINI long distance a number of times, but he complains about his back (never mind that I'M the one with a broken back!). He has a 5-series with...gulp...an automatic.

 

Road trips are ok in the Mini. I always had enough room and we just laid the back seats down, that way the pooch (80lb dog) and the luggage could fit in the back. The gas mileage was great. My biggest problem is unbeliebably uncomfortable the seats are over a long period of time.

Those seats destroyed my back when we drove down to Biloxi from Illinois. I had to use a little pillow for my lower back or something to keep it from hurting too bad.

Gromit, wow. It does look like it used to be quite a track. Kind of like the Hockenheim ring or Silverstone....just not as long of a lap.

 

Thank you so much Gromit for showing us the before and after track plans for Laguna Seca...

I see what you mean about it being toned down from the original concept for the circuit.

Gromit, I believe that this factor, in and of itself, would be sufficient to make Laguna Seca unacceptable as an F1 venue... Kind of like the where they ran the Hungarian GP (Hungaroring). A very difficult place to pass making for a procession rather than a race. It too was a circuit where the cars were just coming into their own before having to sit on the binders for T1.

Laguna Seca in its present configuration would seem to reflect that aspect. I remember watching the ALMS race (season finale) from Seca last year and the realization of how short the straights were was readily obvious. The P1 & P2 prototypes would easily stack up on the slower GT cars coming into the corners. It seemed that the cars were just coming into full song before having to shut down for T1... Its what lead to several on track incidents including the last lap contretemps between the Flying Lizard Motorsports Porsche and the Factory Corvette, which ended with Jan Magnussen's Vette plowing into the wall hard after contact with the Lizards Porsche in a vain (and foolish) attempt to get by it for the win.

So Gromit, this leads me to wonder, how well do the historic (vintage) F1 cars do on this circuit or the big Group 7 cars (Can-Am)?

Benjam's assesment of Laguna's original layout seems spot on in saying, It does look like it used to be quite a track. Kind of like the Hockenheim ring or Silverstone....just not as long of a lap.

 

I'm glad that I could be of service to you!

If you do go the route of a Grand Prix Tour, please keep us up to date on your experience/trip (for those of us that live vicariously through others ).

Either way keep us abreast of things.

I still think you should take Zippeee and hit the open road bound for Canada and the GP! You can always konk hubby in the head and load his unconscious self on Zippeee then blast off! By the time he awakens you will be too far down the road and he will have to go (or walk home)!

 

Hmmm. Will you help?

Benjam, I have an R56, with better seats, so that's not a problem. Even he says they're comfortable, until you get past about 500 miles. Still, he's adamant. Our trip to MITM last year WAS a bit cramped, mainly because we had all the camping gear for afterwards.

 

Simple. The people that own those priceless million dollar cars don't drive them flat out like they were driven in their original racing days.

And I can tell you that even among the Historic racers, there isn't as much passing as there was before the track was snipped.

 

R56s have different seats than R50s?

4.5 - 5 hrs is about the limit before I need an extended break to stretch the knots out in my back.

Gromit, you're right about the passing. The lack of passing allows for frustration to mount, leading to incredibly heroic passes at the Corkscrew as seen by Rossi in that MotoGP race.....last year?

 

Absolutely! The suspension is better, too.

 

Whoa whoa, what? Starting to feel like a noob. Is it the same as the "Sport Suspension Package" that R50s could be had with(like ours)? I believe it was called SS+.

I mean how much weight does the super/turbo system really add? Would it be enough to necessitate different shocks/springs/swaybar? I haven't found any info on an SS+ for Cooper Ss, so it looks like the only step up from there is the JCW kit.

Ahh shoot, this is the F1 thread......ummmmm, Bernie sucks.

 

Or Alex Zanardi getting past Brian Herta at the 1996 CART race!