Anyone interested?

720 is too much for a flash!

Lower price + more people = faster return on your programming time! :smile:

More people + your ECU mod = more real field data! :smile:

-Jim

 

IMO, any amount above the 500 mark is too much for ECU tuning, especially considering the cost for ECUs for other EU cars. 720 is just WAY out of the ballpark.

 

I agree with Storer....I paid under $300.00 for a chip on a Ford P/U and it worked awesome. When the price gets under $400.00 I might do it. But no way can I spend over $700.00. Thats just not right. Can anyone explain why the big difference in prices???

 

>>I agree with Storer....I paid under $300.00 for a chip on a Ford P/U and it worked awesome. When the price gets under $400.00 I might do it. But no way can I spend over $700.00. Thats just not right. Can anyone explain why the big difference in prices???

I can. But Mini in front of the name of something and double the price!

 

2minis is right...unfortunately...

 

Chipping has very high fixed costs and fairly low variable costs. In order for the price to come down, more chips must be sold in order to offset the fixed costs. A group buy of 10 or 20 units is nothing compared to the thousands of units sold for other vehicles, like a Ford F-150 (the most popular vehicle in North America).

 

Unfortunately, Andy is right. The MINI is a very small market comparatively, and the volume of the programming can't justify lower pricing right now. R&D costs are not even recouped at this point, so that $720 doesn't even represent profit for the distributors or programmers yet.

Some of the other options are even pricier - $1000-$1400! I was happy to get this stuff for a low price!

If there is anything we can do on the price as time progresses, it will be done. Honestly, I don't see that happening for some time yet (though I hope I'm wrong).

Hope that helps!

 

>> R&D costs are not even recouped at this point, so that $720 doesn't even represent profit for the distributors or programmers yet.
>>


So what is the breakout on the $720?

I'm baffled. I can buy a pulley for $210 and pay someone for 4-6 hours of labor to push, pull and swear it to installation. Total cost is 4-500 bucks.

How long does the ECU upgrade take? 30 minutes? And there are NO materials involved. It's electricity.

I've written software that took me hundreds of hours to complete. I publish it asking for a donation/registration if you like it and continue to use it.

Am I suggesting there should be shareware ECU upgrades? Na. But that $720 price sounds as though it was pulled out of thin air (what the market will bear) or arrived at with a dartboard.

I was born at night, but not last night.

Educate me! Otherwise, REVOLUTION! :smile:

I'll pay $500. No more.

-Vladimir Lenin



_________________
"Mjolnir" | DS/B MCS | Madison, WI

"It's not just a passion, it's an obsession!"

 

I'm hearing several posts from people in the business of selling ECU updates,
and when I read them, they give the impression that the tuner had to write a
bunch of software for the ECU, and therefore, they need to charge a bunch
of money to get profitable.

I do not believe that any of that is true.

The tuner just changes the coefficients in several tables, and tries the new
settings on a car.

This does take time on a dyno, or driving around, but it's far from the cost of
writing an ECU program from scratch for each car.

I can't imagine the R&D cost would be much more than the pully R&D cost.

So, in my opinion only they are charging way too much for this.

I'm sure we'll now hear about the extrordinarilly high cost involved, and how
we are getting a great deal on this. :smile:

 

$400.00 no more. Well then I said that before.

 

I don't think this is Randy's ECU.My assumption is that Randy went into the marketplace and reserched the ECU's that are available.I'm certain he's offering the unit which he feels is the best for the buck.Even though I'm an old leftist,Randy is in this for a profit.He can't be expected to spend his days putting up with us people obcessed with our cars for free.
We have a car which isn't yet being modified in vast quanities.I won't keep my car for 4 or 5 years until these mods are more affordable.I have the Qs exhaust and Rogue intake, next week I'll install the swaybar.My reduction pulley will be installed June 15,then on to the ECU.The ECU computes to about $50 per horse,that's a bargain in my book.If there are any other mods which yield me additional HP at $50 per horse(labor and material) please advise.
I paid under $23,000 for my MCS,when I'm done with thes mods it will still be under $26,000.I've never driven a car which I enjoy more,at any price.

 

>>Anyone interested?
>>
>>720 is too much for a flash!
>>
>>Lower price + more people = faster return on your programming time! :smile:
>>
>>More people + your ECU mod = more real field data! :smile:
>>
>>-Jim


I am interested. You can put me down on the list as a definite.

-Tim

 

>>We have a car which isn't yet being modified in vast quanities.I won't keep my car for 4 or 5 years until these mods are more affordable.I have the Qs exhaust and Rogue intake, next week I'll install the swaybar.My reduction pulley will be installed June 15,then on to the ECU.The ECU computes to about $50 per horse,that's a bargain in my book.If there are any other mods which yield me additional HP at $50 per horse(labor and material) please advise.

I did a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation based on lbs./HP as follows:

2,685 lbs./163 HP = 16.4724 lbs./HP (2,685 is the as-tested weight of a MCS with sunroof and the 17" s-lites)

(dropping 132 lbs. = ordering without sunroof and going from 17" s-lites to 15" 7-holes)

2,553 lbs. divided by 16.4724 = 155 HP

That means my car would be as fast with 155 HP as a fully-loaded, unmodified MCS.

132 lbs./9 HP = 15 lbs. HP

By that, I figure that a weight loss of 15 lbs. was the equivalent of gaining 1 HP. So, anything that you can do to reduce 15 lbs. of weight for less than your $50 figure would be a good deal. (Actually, I was just figuring static weight. Rotating weight removed would be even better. That's why I concentrated on the wheels.) Your thoughts?

 

>>132 lbs./9 HP = 15 lbs. HP
>>
>>By that, I figure that a weight loss of 15 lbs. was the equivalent of gaining 1 HP. >>

That maybe true for wheel weight but that's about it. Removing 15lbs from each tire should equivalently add a couple or more horses. But with that logic, adding 3 150lb friends is like losing 30 HP??? Three 200lb friends would be like losing 40HP?????? When I have 4 people in my MINI that's about 500 pounds more than just me in the car. It feels noticeably slower but 35HP slower? No way, MAYBE 5-10 HP at the most for 500lbs. That's more like 50-100lbs per HP, not 15.

Good theory but unless it's wheel weight, I don't think it will hold up.

 

I think something everyone here is neglecting to bring to the picture is the cost involved with the origination of the software. There is the salary you have to pay the elecrical engineer(s), the overhead for the cost of the location the work is being done at, the cost of the machines to alter and transmit the new code, dyno testing and OBDII testing to ensure the maps are correct, paying someone to do the testing, sending evaluation products to various vendors, reinvesting profit into new products, etc.

It's not like they WANT to charge that much, but sometimes it's the only way. And don't forget that there are most likely more modded Civics or Vdubs in the US than stock or modded MINI Coopers and MINI Cooper Ss combined!!! This also plays VERY heavily as the costs cannot be spread thin.

Sit tight. If you can't afford to buy now, save and wait. Prices will fall eventually, but until then get used to paying more than Honduh/Vdub prices.

R

 

I did the pulley R&D and am manufacturing them, so here is some info:

figuring out the exact groove profile, dimensions and details for the pulley took about 6-8 hrs, using cad/cam and co-ordinate measuring hardware/ software. the machining for the prototypes, (we made 10), about 10 hours. Add another 10 for consultations, fitting the first units and testing them out, including dyno runs. Once they were found to work, we developed a fuly fixtured CNC machining setup with custom tooling for the hubs and pulleys so they could be made efficiently, another 10 hours. The machining center is a $150,000 item, by the way, and computers, co-ordinate machines and software come in around $20,000, so this doesn't get done in the typical home shop, at least at this level of quality. (the hub bore is finished to +/-.0001, and concentricity is +/- .001 ...count the zero's). We use a $300 drill bit, $200 custom made profiling tools and 4-5 special carbide insert tools or the machine time would be too long to be practical.

all in all, the R&D costs are probably worth about $6-8,000. Then i have to manufacture the pulleys and still make enough to cover expenses and the above R&D while wholesaling the pulleys.

Finally, any bozo can take my pulley out and get it copied by a first rate CNC machine shop, bypassing entirely the above R&D, (there is already someone doing this).

Any programmers like to flesh out that side?

 

>>Any programmers like to flesh out that side?

Sure. Here is bunches of software that people have spent thousands of hours
writing, and they charge between $0 and $25 for it. Shareware

And here is a site where people are designing a complete engine management computer, and giving
all the designs away for free. Electronic fuel-injection free site.

So it is possible to charge less than an enormous $700 for new EMC tables.

That smells like WAY WAY too much money for the effort.

 

I'm glad to hear someone make a good arguement for the cost. I'd have loved to make it myself, but I don't have the inside scoop like a lot of people on this board. I think the ECU reprogramming is expensive, and I probably won't pay for it, but I highly doubt given Randy's love for the car that the price is unjustified.

 

Well, it seems like we have at least 2 people for the group buy! Maybe that will get us $5 off? I'll take it. Sign me up!

 

Using jlm's number of $8,000 for pully R&D, if the markup over manufacturing cost is $160, then 50 pullies have to be sold to just break even.

My guess is setting up a good ECU map will take lots of dyno runs and lots of instrumentation time - we all know the value of dyno runs! If all the labor involved plus use of expensive machines was worth $60,000 instead of the $8,000 for the pully then a 100 unit break-even would need a $600 mark-up. The cost of loading is low but not free - the supplier does free re-flashes including shipping when the dealer overwrites your ECU programming, etc.

These numbers are wild guesses but $700 does not seem too extreme for a low volume production. A model with 1x the volume would bring the mark-up down to just $60.

Can someone with real experience say how much effort is needed to get a quality ECU map?

 

>>If all the labor involved plus use of expensive machines was worth $60,000 instead of the $8,000 for the pully
>>... If it cost $60,000 then a 100 unit break-even would need a $600 mark-up.

And since we're making things up, if it cost $600,000 you would need a $6000 mark up.
I guess I didn't get your point of going from $6,000 to $60,000

Let's look at it this way. There have been 14,000 Cooper-S sold in the US in the last year.
If only 5% of them want the pully mod, that's 700 pullys a year.

If it costs $6,000 for development, You could charge $10 and make the R&D cost back in
only 10 months.

Look at it THAT way, and try and justify $700 for an ECU map.

And there have been 18,000 Coopers sold so you need even FEWER to make up the
R&D costs.

$700 is just way way too much based on any other market.

 

what kind of expensive machines are you thinking of?

you can buy and set up a dyno for less than 15,000; (or you can rent a lot of dyno time for that amount of $)
I doubt any ECU programming station would cost as much as 5,000 and I doubt the hourly rate for progarmming is significantly different from my shop rate, which has to include a factor for rent for space for large machines, insurance, amortization of those machines, etc. (wheras a progamming station can operate on a desktop.)

if you sold 600 pulleys (a very optimistic number), 10 dollars of the wholesale price would go for the R&D, the rest would have to pay for the mfg costs and profit.

The big advantage of the ECU example is they have practically zero mfg costs.

 

Where can you get a Dynojet for $15,000! Sign me up!!

Installed, the Dynojet that I use here in Denver ran $60,000.

No software anywhere for the automotive market is free. I think the frustration must come from folks in other markets where there is such a thing. When there are only a handful of developers that can combine the code breaking with knowing what to do once you have it broken, then the cost is there.

I would love to offer this product at a lower cost, but the same software in Germany where it is written is running over $1000US! There's no way I would be able to get it to the market for less than $700 and still make any money at all.

Another important point is that the profit made from these units (and other products), at least from MINI-Motorsport, pretty much gets dumped right back into development. Track time, dyno runs, and test equipment, not to mention new products, don't come free. The less margin there is on new products, the slower you will see new products developed for the MINI, if at all. That doesn't bode well for anyone.

I understand some folks having a problem with pricing, whether it be ECU or anything else. I would just ask that you take a look at it from all angles before jumping the gun and saying we are all greedy b*stards. I would have paid double for something that really made power about two weeks ago - I'm just happy to finally see something make the A/F ratio right and not see any weird dyno plots.

If it isn't for you right now, totally cool. Just let the market bear out what happens and wait to see. I certainly hope that the prices fall. I can tell you that the newest stuff on the horizon is actually more expensive than what's out there now .

Hope that helps make some points other than what has already been mentioned.

Randy

 

Everything about performance mods are relative when it comes to our minis. What alternatives do you have to the marketplace for mini mods. Go buy a different car? I don't think so. If I like the MCS so much then I have to think and Decide what to do. Buy something now, buy later, Enjoy now or enjoy later. The price may drop later, the selection for mods may be greater later but if you support people like Randy and other tuners and developers now, even in a limited way, then that helps this upgrade market for the mini to grow- maybe slowly but that is better than not at all. Part of the fun of having a mini is driving it and the other part is selecting those performance or appearance mods that may appeal to each of us in some personal way.

I think I would agree with Randy's assessment and I trust his judgement about the worth of a product when supporting it for the rest of us. Nothing is going to be "perfect for everyone". Sure a lower price would be great- a wonderful steal but if that means the margins are so low that nothing more gets developed what does that leave us the consumers? Nada! Plus, how can tuners stay in business without some sort of profit margin. I believe Randy when he says that much of his profits go right back into the costs of doing business- Lots of R&D and testing of products. It's a labor of love for him and it shows- thanks Randy

I am not disheartened by the high ECU flash price. I am encouraged that this is the first ECU that Randy can say is good enough to sell. It's a start and perhaps if others have a better ECU product at a competitive price then that will enter the marketplace later. I will not blindly follow but I will examine what is available and I will decide whether it is a good product for what I want and for my budget.

 

I think $720 is an absurd price for an ECU upgrade and WILL NOT pay that much for it, but many will.
Pricing is not determined by R&D cost; it is determined by supply and demand (econ 101) so turn off you HP-42S. Those that take the risk of investing their time and money to be the first to the market are depending on the desire of the consumer for more HP (i.e. demand) to make their investment worthwhile. Once they have their product developed the R&D expense is no longer an issue, it is a sunk cost, the money is gone. As long as the price exceeds their marginal cost (the cost of maintaining a web site for downloads or installing chips) it is to their benefit to sell to the consumer. If no one was willing to pay $720 (or $715 like timcuculic) the price would drop rapidly (as well as future R&D) with the low marginal cost associated with software. The software developers are not greedy b@stard they are entrepreneurs and capitalists (the ideals that our country (USA) is founded on.)
Basically what I am saying is if you want “fair” move to East Germany and buy a Trabant. Oh, wait, they tore down the Wall. Russia…
Maybe China, Korea or Vietnam?
Don’t blame the manufacture, blame yourself, after all in a capitalist society the buyer is KING. You will either pay with money or time. Make the Choice.