Drivetrain WMS SportBox RAF
Banned
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,848
Likes: 1
From: City of Angels, Cali
To keep this post on topic.... i'm sure to think up something relevant..... hmmm, oh, of course, what does RAF stand for anyway? (the) Rest Are F#cked?
I'll take one!
5th Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 892
Likes: 0
From: Charleston, SC
I like the idea but have one question that I don't see an answer for in this thread ( I could be a blind moron)..
Randy... what keeps water from getting in the intake during high speeds in heavy rain?
While I am lucky that my MINI is a fun car I still drive it in the torential rain every now and then when I am forced and am curious as to what will stop the water from getting in there and causing a possible hydro-lock?
Thanks
chris
Randy... what keeps water from getting in the intake during high speeds in heavy rain?
While I am lucky that my MINI is a fun car I still drive it in the torential rain every now and then when I am forced and am curious as to what will stop the water from getting in there and causing a possible hydro-lock?
Thanks
chris
what keeps it out with the stock airbox? nothing. hydrolock is only a risk if the motor sees all water. lots of tuners use water or meth injection in the intake tract to cool charge temps and thus lower the threshold for detonation.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Here's mine from about 2003
Originally Posted by obehave
From an old post
Originally Posted by obehave
Sorry, realized I had posted this on another forum
Testing done with an Alta intake, lots of tape and plastic sheet(ask Randy) and a Magnehelic gauge. 2 runs each test in 2 diffferent directions and average to minimize any effects of the wind (which was < 10MPH that day)
In a nutshell.
You don't see a pressure differential until 50-55 MPH. It's almost .035 psi at 70MPH.
This was obtained by taking a bag( 2 gal trash bag) and taping it in place where the cowl opening is. Inserted the gauge lead in under the cowl grill and driving.
Remove the bag and just run the lead in and repeat. Readings are slightly lower. Remember this gauge is in .035 psi increments so you have to kind of trust my judgement. (This is THE reason I never really posted this info since I didn't want to take a beating from the **** test monkeys out there. You know who you are
Run this 3 different times with the lead in 3 different places. Results are indistinguishable from each other. One with the lead right next to the filter.
Now the biggie.
I use plastic sheet and a friggin ton of tape to isolate the air box, close to what the OEM air box would be like. Rerun the tests.
Pressures are slightly, approx 1/4 psi, lower than with the open cowl being used.
For me that's all I really needed to see.
Note:
Max reading for the day was right a .06125 psi during an 80mph sprint.
I'm sure there's some cool mathematical ratio to explain the pressure rise. Like this:
45mph nuttin
55mph close to .0175 psi
70mph .04375psi
80mph .06125psi
One thing I didn't test but wanted to that's relative to this thread is; are forward or rear facing scoops better? Just couldn't figure an easy way to make test scoops. As upright as the MINI windshield is, I'm thinking rearward.
Originally Posted by obehave
Sorry, realized I had posted this on another forum
Testing done with an Alta intake, lots of tape and plastic sheet(ask Randy) and a Magnehelic gauge. 2 runs each test in 2 diffferent directions and average to minimize any effects of the wind (which was < 10MPH that day)
In a nutshell.
You don't see a pressure differential until 50-55 MPH. It's almost .035 psi at 70MPH.
This was obtained by taking a bag( 2 gal trash bag) and taping it in place where the cowl opening is. Inserted the gauge lead in under the cowl grill and driving.
Remove the bag and just run the lead in and repeat. Readings are slightly lower. Remember this gauge is in .035 psi increments so you have to kind of trust my judgement. (This is THE reason I never really posted this info since I didn't want to take a beating from the **** test monkeys out there. You know who you are
Run this 3 different times with the lead in 3 different places. Results are indistinguishable from each other. One with the lead right next to the filter.
Now the biggie.
I use plastic sheet and a friggin ton of tape to isolate the air box, close to what the OEM air box would be like. Rerun the tests.
Pressures are slightly, approx 1/4 psi, lower than with the open cowl being used.
For me that's all I really needed to see.
Note:
Max reading for the day was right a .06125 psi during an 80mph sprint.
I'm sure there's some cool mathematical ratio to explain the pressure rise. Like this:
45mph nuttin
55mph close to .0175 psi
70mph .04375psi
80mph .06125psi
One thing I didn't test but wanted to that's relative to this thread is; are forward or rear facing scoops better? Just couldn't figure an easy way to make test scoops. As upright as the MINI windshield is, I'm thinking rearward.
Show me the "they" posts
no thanks. I'll just sit back and watch you guys argue. A better use of my time. besides....I didn't say what I believe, merely stated opinions are all around the truth on this site. there's a simple way to test with no need for expensive equipment - remove the cowl grilles and tape some string to the edges.
besides....I didn't say what I believe, merely stated opinions are all around the truth on this site. there's a simple way to test with no need for expensive equipment - remove the cowl grilles and tape some string to the edges.
5th Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 892
Likes: 0
From: Charleston, SC
With this design the RAF fitting to the scoop would take a massive amount of water straight in would it not?
I am only asking because I am trying to understand how it will work in this situation.
chris
Chris - the actual intake path to the motor is 180 degrees the other direction from the extra flow through the scoop. if anything, some moisture might end up in the enclosure, but slim chance of making it past the filter. The HDI has a small drain hole for this reason as water can get in through the cowl or the OEM intake tract. I'd imagine the RAF has the same.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
no thanks. I'll just sit back and watch you guys argue. A better use of my time. besides....I didn't say what I believe, merely stated opinions are all around the truth on this site. there's a simple way to test with no need for expensive equipment.
besides....I didn't say what I believe, merely stated opinions are all around the truth on this site. there's a simple way to test with no need for expensive equipment.
Link didn't work??
What was it?
it was a video on Streetfire - their direct linking is disabled - try this. Some bloke taped string to the scoop on a Legacy and then taped his camera to the fender and drove 0-55 laminar flow keeps the string pinned to the surface as low as 20mph. as soon as he stops, it blows out of the scoop, showing positive pressure at low speeds (a good thing!).
Same testing regimen could be used on the cowl intakes for the MINI - not empirical data, but hard evidence nonetheless. Positive pressure = string sucked in. Neutral = fluttering string. Negative = string pulling upwards into the wind. I'll do this soon and report back.
laminar flow keeps the string pinned to the surface as low as 20mph. as soon as he stops, it blows out of the scoop, showing positive pressure at low speeds (a good thing!).Same testing regimen could be used on the cowl intakes for the MINI - not empirical data, but hard evidence nonetheless. Positive pressure = string sucked in. Neutral = fluttering string. Negative = string pulling upwards into the wind. I'll do this soon and report back.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: Westlake, Ohio
Stop being so academic about all of this!! The more ways for cool air to reach the engine, the better. The only real world question is price. If this is more than all the other intakes by a significant margin, than I say thanks but no thanks. If the price is in line with all the other CAI's out there (or a smidgen above), then sign me up! Randy, are you going to post pics with the RAF installed?
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
From: Maryland
What really should be measured is temps.
An easy test would be with and without the RAF fixture.
Air box chamber temps and at least IC inlet temps.
If they're cooler it works. Done deal.
Next is how well it works. Easy to qualify and verify.
I see it again and again in this and other threads. The assumption that the cowl is some kind of heat sucking outlet is wrong.
The data was posted years ago that the cowl is under positive pressure. This is true with an Alta style intake or keeping the cowl closed off.
An easy test would be with and without the RAF fixture.
Air box chamber temps and at least IC inlet temps.
If they're cooler it works. Done deal.
Next is how well it works. Easy to qualify and verify.
I see it again and again in this and other threads. The assumption that the cowl is some kind of heat sucking outlet is wrong.
The data was posted years ago that the cowl is under positive pressure. This is true with an Alta style intake or keeping the cowl closed off.
I say Randy gives one to obehave to test.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
Great looking intake!
I'll lend my voice to the chorus... Randy, when you've got another RAF available send one to Obe to test!
Cheers,
mc
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Good question on the HDI. I like mine and since I have one of the asymmetrical scoops I'll probably keep it.
I am definitely interested in whether the RAF or my scoop cool the intake charge more effectively.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
Ahem:
Pressure drop....blah blah blah........core temp.......blah blah blah.......cold charge.......blah blah blah......DFIC......blah blah blah.........adibiatic efficiency.....blah blah.......stoichiometry....blah blah.
There. I have refuted all of your "physics" and your "science". Care to rebut me Einstein?
I am the NAM engine/thermodynamics/kinematics/physics guru. Fear my catch phrases and my shallow knowledge.
I have read every thread in this forum and in the course of doing so, have picked up enough knowledge to refute and debunk people with advanced engineering degrees.
In all seriousness, what I like most about the RAF is how short the name is.......even shorter than the DFIC. I can install one and simultaneously add it to my sig without worrying about going over the maximum allowable number of characters.
Yay al-Webb!
Pressure drop....blah blah blah........core temp.......blah blah blah.......cold charge.......blah blah blah......DFIC......blah blah blah.........adibiatic efficiency.....blah blah.......stoichiometry....blah blah.
There. I have refuted all of your "physics" and your "science". Care to rebut me Einstein?
I am the NAM engine/thermodynamics/kinematics/physics guru. Fear my catch phrases and my shallow knowledge.
I have read every thread in this forum and in the course of doing so, have picked up enough knowledge to refute and debunk people with advanced engineering degrees.
In all seriousness, what I like most about the RAF is how short the name is.......even shorter than the DFIC. I can install one and simultaneously add it to my sig without worrying about going over the maximum allowable number of characters.
Yay al-Webb!
First, thank you for explaing further but I still have some doubts.
This I get.
So the coldest source of air is the window vent. This seems to make sense since it is air that does not travel thru a tube via the engine comparement.
The air comng from your new source should be appr. the same temp as the stock source - so its just more of it not necessarily colder?
Here is the fuzziest part for me - I interpret that you are saying that there is air that enters the scoop but does not go through the IC. I realize the scoop and IC are offset but even the stock system diverts air entering the far right (facing car) towards the IC. If this air is not passing thru the IC where does it go in a stock set-up? Does it bleed back out the scoop?
see last comment below.
While I have little first hand knowledge on most of the things discussed here. One area I do have first hand experience is IC and sealing it up properly. I have run stock IC, GTT IC and now DFIC and if you remove the seals (foam and stuff) on any of them the IC performance drops. When I tested the GTT for Matt, I removed the foam and the hood piece and temps jumped up.
If your saying - yes, the box does take some air away from the IC and therefore it does drop the IC efficieny a tiny bit but by diverting that air to the CAI it is a better usage of that air from a total temp perspective - then I get it.
The RAF will provide colder air more directly to the filter, allowing for higher density. If the vent is kept closed, there is not as cool a charge for the filter, which is why I left it open - once the car is moving, the whole system works together to provide the coldest charge possible.
The air comng from your new source should be appr. the same temp as the stock source - so its just more of it not necessarily colder?
see last comment below.
While I have little first hand knowledge on most of the things discussed here. One area I do have first hand experience is IC and sealing it up properly. I have run stock IC, GTT IC and now DFIC and if you remove the seals (foam and stuff) on any of them the IC performance drops. When I tested the GTT for Matt, I removed the foam and the hood piece and temps jumped up.
I am trying to make the best unit on the market that requires the least fabrication and can easily be reversed. There are no cuts, seals destroyed, etc. There is definitely a shortage of cold air and surface area without the CAI. If you start from a colder point, the charge into the supercharger will be raised to a lower temp, and the intercooler will therefore have a lower inlet temp, and finally a lower outlet temp than a charge that started at a higher temp. Those numbers all vary with load on the supercharger, the efficiency of the rotors in the supercharger and the intercooler core efficiency. We based the testing on a car with a stock intercooler and a 15% pulley on the Eaton M45.
The numbers are good over stock with regard to temp. I am very interested in thermal management right now - not just on the intake - which is why I started looking at this possibility. I am very happy with the results, and I think we have the easiest to install, best performing, least intrusive intake on the market (well, shortly on the market).
Hope that helps!
Randy
The numbers are good over stock with regard to temp. I am very interested in thermal management right now - not just on the intake - which is why I started looking at this possibility. I am very happy with the results, and I think we have the easiest to install, best performing, least intrusive intake on the market (well, shortly on the market).
Hope that helps!
Randy
PARTSMAN,
Yes, and you are looking at it. The scoop attaches to the intercooler diverter where you see the flange, and then goes into the side of the box - right there in the picture. We have done quite a bit of pressure testing to assure function of the design. It is optimized, and functions well at just about any speed of forward movement. The duct is the bonnet scoop itself and the stock diverter.
Thanks,
Randy
Yes, and you are looking at it. The scoop attaches to the intercooler diverter where you see the flange, and then goes into the side of the box - right there in the picture. We have done quite a bit of pressure testing to assure function of the design. It is optimized, and functions well at just about any speed of forward movement. The duct is the bonnet scoop itself and the stock diverter.
Thanks,
Randy
Will the RAF part be able to supply any kind of pressurized airflow?
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
From: Maryland
I would say only if all/most other openings to the "box" are closed off would you get some pressurization. How much benefit would that provide? Hard to say.
My little dose of LITHIUM
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 2
From: Albuquerque New Mexico
My reading of Randy's response about diverting some air to the airbox away from the IC scoop is that there's some air coming in the scoop that's not going through the IC, but rather escaping via the open-cell foam seals around the diverter.
When I had the Alta diverter, my mods to it seemed to me to provide quite effective sealing, including air that might spill over the front of the diverter. I used rubber gaskets, not open cell foam, and so I wonder why all the air was not going through the IC, as that was the only way for air to escape the box formed by the diverter and the seals?
Of course, some argue that at speed, the pressure build up over the IC is such as to force air back -out- the scoop, and this may be possible, I guess.
Having looked at my DFIC these last few days as I'm working on my RBH-DF scoop (really big hole, direct flow), I can't see how any air could be diverted from the DFIC to the airbox, even if you open up the right hand side of the asymetric DF scoop, like mine does, because there's just no room over the top of the DFIC to put a tube (rectangular or otherwise) to the airbox.
Oh well, maybe we'll all go back to our stock ICs if Randy's new device lowers the IATs by more than the DFIC does! I can, since I have both!
cheers,
When I had the Alta diverter, my mods to it seemed to me to provide quite effective sealing, including air that might spill over the front of the diverter. I used rubber gaskets, not open cell foam, and so I wonder why all the air was not going through the IC, as that was the only way for air to escape the box formed by the diverter and the seals?
Of course, some argue that at speed, the pressure build up over the IC is such as to force air back -out- the scoop, and this may be possible, I guess.
Having looked at my DFIC these last few days as I'm working on my RBH-DF scoop (really big hole, direct flow), I can't see how any air could be diverted from the DFIC to the airbox, even if you open up the right hand side of the asymetric DF scoop, like mine does, because there's just no room over the top of the DFIC to put a tube (rectangular or otherwise) to the airbox.
Oh well, maybe we'll all go back to our stock ICs if Randy's new device lowers the IATs by more than the DFIC does! I can, since I have both!
cheers,
Thread Starter
|
Temporarily Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,382
Likes: 2
From: Denver
The hood scoop flow of air is not all used by the intercooler - some of it ends up as turbulent flow. I am using that area for the RAF. Ram Air Flow by the way.
As for the water - I have used a hose and still just get a bit in the bottom of the box, none through to the filter. It has to do with the weight and the turns. There is a water escape in the RAF.
The coldest source of air is ambient air, which can come from the front grille or the hood scoop. The cowl air is slightly warmer, but there is usually more volume. My intent was to increase the volume of ambient air wiht the RAF (which worked).
It should work with the M7 strut brace - I have yet to test that though. It is slightly larger, but is straight and then follows the countour of the ECU cover (which remains in place) to increase the volume around the filter (something that was lacking on the original HDI).
The cowl area is under positive pressure under forward movement above around 14 MPH. Try something fun with pressure testing - close the recirculation of the climate system during your testing...
I am all about sending a unit to obe - temps are really all that matter for this testing anyway.
Skiploader (purposely spelled wrong) - I bow to your knowledge oh physics guru. You truly are my hero (tell the wife and kids I said hi BTW).
Let me know if I missed any questions.
Thanks!
Randy
As for the water - I have used a hose and still just get a bit in the bottom of the box, none through to the filter. It has to do with the weight and the turns. There is a water escape in the RAF.
The coldest source of air is ambient air, which can come from the front grille or the hood scoop. The cowl air is slightly warmer, but there is usually more volume. My intent was to increase the volume of ambient air wiht the RAF (which worked).
It should work with the M7 strut brace - I have yet to test that though. It is slightly larger, but is straight and then follows the countour of the ECU cover (which remains in place) to increase the volume around the filter (something that was lacking on the original HDI).
The cowl area is under positive pressure under forward movement above around 14 MPH. Try something fun with pressure testing - close the recirculation of the climate system during your testing...
I am all about sending a unit to obe - temps are really all that matter for this testing anyway.
Skiploader (purposely spelled wrong) - I bow to your knowledge oh physics guru. You truly are my hero (tell the wife and kids I said hi BTW).
Let me know if I missed any questions.
Thanks!
Randy
The hood scoop flow of air is not all used by the intercooler - some of it ends up as turbulent flow. I am using that area for the RAF. Ram Air Flow by the way.
As for the water - I have used a hose and still just get a bit in the bottom of the box, none through to the filter. It has to do with the weight and the turns. There is a water escape in the RAF.
The coldest source of air is ambient air, which can come from the front grille or the hood scoop. The cowl air is slightly warmer, but there is usually more volume. My intent was to increase the volume of ambient air wiht the RAF (which worked).
It should work with the M7 strut brace - I have yet to test that though. It is slightly larger, but is straight and then follows the countour of the ECU cover (which remains in place) to increase the volume around the filter (something that was lacking on the original HDI).
The cowl area is under positive pressure under forward movement above around 14 MPH. Try something fun with pressure testing - close the recirculation of the climate system during your testing...
I am all about sending a unit to obe - temps are really all that matter for this testing anyway.
Skiploader (purposely spelled wrong) - I bow to your knowledge oh physics guru. You truly are my hero (tell the wife and kids I said hi BTW).
Let me know if I missed any questions.
Thanks!
Randy
As for the water - I have used a hose and still just get a bit in the bottom of the box, none through to the filter. It has to do with the weight and the turns. There is a water escape in the RAF.
The coldest source of air is ambient air, which can come from the front grille or the hood scoop. The cowl air is slightly warmer, but there is usually more volume. My intent was to increase the volume of ambient air wiht the RAF (which worked).
It should work with the M7 strut brace - I have yet to test that though. It is slightly larger, but is straight and then follows the countour of the ECU cover (which remains in place) to increase the volume around the filter (something that was lacking on the original HDI).
The cowl area is under positive pressure under forward movement above around 14 MPH. Try something fun with pressure testing - close the recirculation of the climate system during your testing...
I am all about sending a unit to obe - temps are really all that matter for this testing anyway.
Skiploader (purposely spelled wrong) - I bow to your knowledge oh physics guru. You truly are my hero (tell the wife and kids I said hi BTW).
Let me know if I missed any questions.
Thanks!
Randy
and patience. Yours truely, CAI impaired.
