So, I've been toying with the idea of getting the m62 for awhile when it dawned on me that depending on the pricing of the kit, it may be more prudent to go with a twincharge setup. I'm just wondering if anybody has any thoughts on this. I'm sure some people have gone over their own lists on why they want to go one way or another.

M62
1) Cheaper
2) Stock appearance
3) Reliability? (This is questionable as no direct challenges have been substantiated against an TC system that wasn't overboosted)
4) Better torque curve? (I have no idea)

Twincharge
1) Highest theoretical output (behind turbo-only setup)
2) More expensive for M62 to make TC power? (questionable since pricing has not been announced, but even if the M62 is $3000, a head is probably a must to get to TC power and that will be around $2000. That will put the M62 pretty close to TC price.)

Those are my personal observations. Any comments?

P.S. - where did the TC sticky go?

 

plus the driveability (sp?), which i dont think anyone that is going for big numbers cares about. if you want big numbers from a TC setup you are going to need new cylinders, and injectors and a whole bunch of other stuff. you dont need that if you keep the boost low though. i dont know what you would need with the m62 however

 

I think many could care less about big output numbers on a FWD car with a short wheelbase. At some point more and more just makes less and less sense; at least for me...

I've heard that a TC, with install, costs around $5 to 5.5K total. The M62, which apparently can be done by many in a DIY type fashion is quite appealing at about $2k less.

For those who must go through smog visual inspections, like in CA, the answer becomes even more clear.

For those who track and race their cars, the minimal feedback of the TC set-up has left us uncertain, at best. The M62 is not an option at the moment, while the TC is though. On the track, and over the long haul, I would venture to guess that the M62 will prove itself to be very dependable.

 

A good question would be How far can we push the 62 before it starts to loose efficiently? Considering we didn't have to worry about the internals of the mini ect...Only time will tell -- Johan

 

I don't think I phrased my post correctly. I'm not talking about going big numbers with a TC kit. I'm talking about a 250whp TC vs. 250whp m62 car. The TC kit can do it with just their base kit, while the m62 will require other modifications to hit that number. Anybody else have any input on a 250whp TC vs. m62 car? Pros and cons regarding price, torque curve, appearance, reliability, possibilities?

 

I think it would probably be around the same price. Really it's gonna be whether you want the Turbo as well or just the Supercharger. Or if you're gonna want more power later for not that much more money. In which case TC would be the way to go.

 

With the M62, we are still in the speculation stages now; so it's hard to say... The next couple or so weeks should help you decide though.

 

I was under the impression that they were shooting for a $3k-$4k price point. Am I incorrect?

 

Even if DDM announces a Turbo kit, the 62 is still my personal choice.....

$3500 is the target

 

As Bob just confirmed... with a self-install, not bad compared to 5+ for TC installed (assuming the payment for a professionall mechanic). A 2k delta is fairly substantial, esp when you can sell your SC afterwards for a few hundred bucks

 

if you are doing the install yourself on a twin charge car it would still be more than an M62. but not by much. and you could always sell the supercharger and go straight turbo too

 

From what I've heard of TC installs, it's not something for the weekend warrior; and given the concerns to do it properly, such an install should be discouraged, unless one is truly competent. From what I understand, going with a stand-alone turbo (SC removal) is even more challenging. Ryephile seems to have done a very nice job, and kudos to him. Maybe a kit is not so far off... The M62 should suit my needs just fine.

 

definately. the m62 is going to be a lot easier. and for the california people, it is the way to go for big numbers.

 

Hold up here.
Speculating on a price point of $3,500.00 for the kit certainly allows a nice fat margin that I’m sure the said vendor is anxious to lock down on for the distribution of this kit.
Look at it this way, the marketing is free, you’re doing it for him and he gets a key stone mark up for taking orders.
I don’t understand why the parts that are needed to make up this kit cost so much unless they are providing a brand new M62.
Rather than sit around with baited breath do a little research to see what these parts cost and add it up. I know the parts are not just a straight bolt on as they are and need to be modified but there isn't anything radical needing to be done to them either.
Don’t get me wrong here, the fellow who developed this kit deserves his due and I would be happy to pay it. But the further you get from the source the more people you pay and the question of what value have they added to deserve it.

 

The voice of reason.

 

You seem to be forgetting about the cost of development. The time spent sizing, machining and testing. That becomes part of the price.
Let's wait and see how the kit is priced. There are some vendors that play fair and will let the volume recoup their development fees. It will be just a matter of time before others jump in and create competition.. then the prices will fall..
We just have to wait and see...

 

How does this matter? When did prices get dictated by cost plus methods instead of supply and demand? Anyways, that's not the point of this thread.

It's interesting that helix will also be putting out a new m62 kit. I'm sure it'll put some downward pressure on the m62 path and create a larger differential between it and the TC path.

 

Ahh, here's where I step in, invited or not! Professor and Chair of the economics department, University of New Mexico. There's no doubt that supply and demand will determine the price and quantity sold of these units. But initially there will be only one supplier and he can earn monopoly rents. As a monopolist, he gets to choose the demand point to price at. This choice can be made, in part, based on a reasonable time to recoup his investment in R&D -- which could be at a rate as high as 25% annually in current conditions. Hence a retail price of $3500, say, could be "reasonable" under these circumstances. For the (quasi) monopolist it's all about maximizing profits, not sales.

cheers, and thanks for listening.

 

Ah, so that's where the dr. in "dr. phil" comes in!

 

Indeed, one of the benefits of being first-to-market...

 

I knew I liked you

 

Point taken and don't disagree however I wish to point out that when it comes to MODing - economics ($) typically plays no role whatsoever.

 

What would make installing a TC kit any more difficult than installing an M62 kit?

M62 - Bumper removal. Removing s/c and reinstalling s/c. Moving pumps. Don't think anything else extreme is necessary?

TC - Removing header. Bolting in exhaust manifold. Bolting turbo to manifold. Bolting Downpipe to turbo. Bolting on some charge pipes and a BOV. Installing an apexi s-afc. Don't think anything else extreme is necessary.

What makes installing a TC kit so much harder? All your doing is removing the header and replacing with the turbo. And routing the charge pipes to the intake manifold. If you can install an M62, you can install a TC. I'm sure it comes with some sort of instructions. Not to mention the vendors offer help via phone/e-mail for the install.

 

Well, so far there are precious few humans that have driven a Mini with an M62 fitted..... I happen to be one of them.... to me it is not about the install but rather the driveability of the car..... the intrusiveness of the technology and overall vibe that I get.

The car drives great..... the technology can hardly be noticed when installed..... and I love the "vibe"

with the advent of the top TC (Helix) producer announcing a 62 kit apparently there is something to this...DDM can offer a Turbo and might as DDM has developed Turbos for other cars but the 62 for the reasons stated over and over has a compelling future in the Mini application...... when you get a chance to drive one you will see what I mean (Tuls who had a 500whp turbo Mini after I took him for a ride in Nashville mused that this is the way he wants to go on his next "street" Mini..... ) the 62, like the TC is a tool in the chest for different applications.... the not so subtle distinctions should not be lost

 

Granted, I agree the M62 is going to be a great kit when finished and is the less extreme of the two choices. However, I don't understand why people say installing a TC couldn't be a DIY that's all. Both Kits will have their place in the MINI market/community. The M62 being the more subtle of the kits.