I can see how these options, and others, will appeal to different people.

As for me:

- I have had a goal from the very beginning, and part of that entails a 10:1 weight to hp (bhp) ratio. This is on the brink of what the M45 can offer, but the M62 makes this not so difficult to achieve. As I have previously expressed, making oodles of power in the MINI (or any FWD car) doesn't appeal to me. I'll change my tune on my RWD project though...

- I (and many, if not most in CA) require that whatever mods I do be CARB certified or be easily removable, or simply not be an issue come smog inspection time. The M62 qualifies, and as far as I know, none of the TC options do. This will not be a factor of consideration for some, I understand...

- Price. While I would already rule-out TC'ing due to the above... a $1,300 price delta (3,500 vs 4,800) is fairly substantial. And in my case, and probably like many here, I will do the install of the M62 myself, compared to spending an additional $1k for a paid TC install making for a $2+k delta.

I suppose there are a couple other points, but minor, at least to me, and I won't bother mentioning them...

As far as performance goes, outside the dyno or strip, but on a track, like a 2 hour enduro, the lesser powered M62 car might be the one to choose. Time would certainly tell on that one, but given some expressions and accounts in the Racing forum, there have been some issues confronted with TC'ing...

It seems that an M62 will allow a MINI to get to a weight to hp ratio of about 9.30. And with the weight of my MINI, a crazy 8.6. For some perspective, here are some other cars, at least from a couple years back (weight/bhp):

Lamborghini Murcielago 6.370
Dodge Viper SRT-10 6.714
Porsche 911 GT2 6.940
Ferrari 575M Maranello F1 7.408
Ferrari 360 Modena Berlinetta F1 7.660
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 7.698
Porsche 911 Turbo 8.164
Ferrari 456M GT 8.429
Lotus Esprit V8 ('02) 8.694
Porsche 911 Carrera 9.393
Ford SVT Mustang Cobra 9.692
Porsche 911 Targa 9.901
Mercedes C-Class C32 AMG Sedan 10.143
BMW M5 10.210
BMW M3 10.255
Jaguar XK Series XKR 10.356
Acura NSX 3.2 MT 10.869
Nissan 350Z 11.209
Pontiac Trans AM Firebird V8 ('02) 11.270
Porsche Boxster 11.283
Honda S2000 11.708

Not exactly many FWD cars in there, and for good reason... because applying it (to the ground), especially on a short wheel based car just gets to be too challenging.

Just one man's rationale...

 

Sorry for the double post but I just put this up in the other M-62 thread . I just think the info fits here as well.

Info with a BIG disclaimer. I read this today in the Sept issue of Automobile and it does hold good promise for the future of the M-62 program. Granted it is on a completely different car but I for one do like the changes it made for that application. I will quote two paragraphs which most apply to what we are trying to accomplish here in my opinion. Remember I am already saying this is apples and oranges .
The cars in question are a pair of Lotus Elise's which were tuned by the tuning arm of Lotus , Lotus Sport. One they call the Lotus Sport Elise and the more hopped up one is the Lotus Exige Cup.The sport was prices at 55,920 and the Cup at 79,915.
From the article,

" The most significant change on the Exige Cup, however is in the engine bay. hanging off the back of the Yamaha - built Toyota four cylinder is a intercooled Eaton M-62 supercharger. Thanks to the blower ( the engine remains unmodified internally ) , Power rises to 243 hp and torque climbs to 174 lb-ft. According to factory claims 60 mph arrives in 4.1 sec- a full .8 seconds faster than the $28,000 cheaper standard Exige- but what you really notice is the extra grunt.
The standard Elise and Exige aren't slow , but they are peaky. In contrast the Exige Cup simply steamrolls its way toward redline , regardless of engine speed. Although you don't spend much time a the tach's bottom half on the track the improved midrange works wonders for corner exit speeds. "

Now to finish up, YES this is a completely different car but it provided exactly what we are looking for less of a quest for peak HP but more driving performance. The m62 package in this configuration provided 53 hp more than stock and 36 more ft-lb of tongue. Let the goodtimes roll

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

One other thing to keep in mind is that it's (fairly) cheap to get an M45 car to 200 hp.. but for every, let's say, 10 hp above that the $ scale is shifted far higher. You could easily spend $3k on getting your M45 car to the 230hp range. At that point, you've got a fairly heavily modded car. With the M62 you're getting to that range with far fewer mods, and far less tuning.

IMO, it's just a cleaner way to go, also compared to the TC route. I like the idea of a 30% hp boost from a "bolt-on" that I could do myself. Not that I wouldn't mind sporting Bob's ride..

If, (with the M62) after spanking a Flowmaster-ed V8, we happen to stop and pop our hoods, It'd be cool to have the sore (V8) loser think he got his a$$ handed to him by a stock-looking Mini engine..

My vote?.. the Fast but_not_so_Furious (looking) M62 kit.

 

This guy is a professional writer but that is a very good description of my impression of the change in my car......

 

YEP

 

I really wish all wouldn't make blanket statments such as this... it is not the case... the thing is most who go to the level that TC takes you just don't care... Especially when my daily driven TC MINI is 7:1 (weight/bhp)

The TC (Fireballed!) is a bolt on that makes 250 WHP minimum..... no extras... "stage one"

Am I getting this wrong...or... the M62 is just that kit ($3500)....

what about the head, and the header, injectors, interkewler and the exhaust... etc... now we are talking almost another 5k... that's a total of almost 10k NOT including install....

again... I am all for the M62... but you cannot compare the two... especially if you are talking HP per $

I just don't want people getting the wrong Idea... just like with TCing... I say... spend the extra on the pistons... what's another grand if you are spending 5k... for an easy way to make more if you like....and a little security... LOL...

as for stomping V8s with flowmasters... WERD! DOOO IT! LOL

 

I believe that if you are comparing the two, these are two totally separate packages. What the final goal is should really be considered. From my little understanding of the M62, it is an easier install and a cheaper (price wise) option that will add power. For the TC, it is a more complete kit (new intercooler, injectors etc) and a more difficult install. It also can add more horsepower than the M62.

So rather than compare the 2, decide which is best and what the final result will be.... Or if you really want power, get both...

 

Hey Tuls, I checked Fireballed's website to try and find the components of the bolt on Turbo kit you speak of but I couldn't find it...can you fill me in on what exactly the kit comes with or a link to somewhere that can? Thanks!

Even though there are no numbers on the M62 yet, all of this discussion is great for people that are on the fence about what to do performance wise to their Mini. As its been said before, I think at the end of the day some people are going to want the turbo and some are going to want the M62. Nothing like more choices though!!!

 

The M62 seems a popular hot rod tonic for Hondas also, http://www.theoldone.com/components/...er_systems.htm .

 

So what was my blanket statement? I ask because you selected my post, and only these words:

Originally Posted by TonyB
none of the TC options do.

Going back to my post where you hand-picked those words, this is what I said, in context:

- I (and many, if not most in CA) require that whatever mods I do be CARB certified or be easily removable, or simply not be an issue come smog inspection time. The M62 qualifies, and as far as I know, none of the TC options do. This will not be a factor of consideration for some, I understand...
====

Obviously, this was addresseing CARB concerns first of all (which you didn't talk about one bit), and if it is truly "not the case" as you say, then please enlighten us; as you should have when attempting to refute another's assertion. And blanket statement? A sentence that includes the words "as far I know" certainly doesn't qualify or denote a blanket statement in the slightest, and if anything, the oppposite - it invites a respectful correction, which was not even attempted.

 

Hey sorry... I meant no disrespect....

the TC only technically needs a cat to be carb legal... there are a few ways this can be achived... the TC kit it's self may not solve this.. but that is up to each buyer... if someone was to say... I want a 3 inch high flow cat etc etc... I know for me.. it's not biggie to add that while doing the build...etc... things of that nature....

I do not disagree the M62 will be more direct in this area...unless you are doing a header.... ( which to me would be silly not to get the extra boost flowing out too not just in...) so then it's which one... does it have a cat? etc... so it's very similar..

for me it's all the same... it just pick you path and what it is you want out of the car... none of it's better... more understanding limitations of the car.. the mods... and ofcourse the wallet! LOL

 

It's alright Tuls, thank you.

The visual inspection in CA nabs a lot of folks, even if the car's emissions are fine. CARB approval, an easy swap back to stock, or something stealth is very desirable. Going back to the stock air box, or IC, for example, would be rather easy. And something like the M62 shouldn't draw any attention and corresponding hassles. TC'ing sort of sticks-out... With plans to keep my MINI for years to come, this is a huge factor in the decison-making process...

I have a SS header, ceramic coated, but with the stock cat. As I recall, some of the early TC'd cars were still utilizing the stock cats. If so, my feeling was that if they can still generate that kind of power with the stock cat in the loop, it will be fine on my MCS with less power output...

I'm a firm believer in setting a goal beforehand, and building to it. Such an approach would help those decide if TC'ing, the M62, pulley/intake/exhaust, etc fits the bill.

 

The Helix Twin Charge kit has a integrated catalytic converter wich allows the car to run closed loop operation with no oxygen sensor "trickers".

 

After Tuls' post I did a little snooping to see what the price difference was between the two.

Fireballed TC on Detroit Tuned retails at $5850 and gives ~245ish WHP

Using RETAIL pricing mainly from WMS and M7 I priced out a few things that Spider has on his car.

M62 3500ish
DFIC 900 (no extras)
Header 240 (used Meagan cause cheap)
Exhaust 790 (borla)
Injectors 379
M62 Intake 300ish
Throttle Body 399
Head with Cam 2425
Unichip 800

TOTALLING 9733

Thats quite a price difference for similar HP!! I understand and appreciate both Tuls' and Spiders setups and their personal preferences behind them. Hopefully these nembers persuade the new M62 vendors to make a nice "package deal" to compete price wise with the TC kits for junkies like me looking for bigger power!!


Seann

 

That is close......

no arguement...... I already had a fun car and wanted to make it "funner"

 

For me personally...I have a big chunk of that list already so considering the power I want the M62 seems to be a no-brainer. The biggest thing I am lacking is the head / cam combo. Hopefully they are bringing out a nice new head to compliment the M62...of course thats just one more loop in the R&D pipeline.

Seann

 

it is tailor made for you

 

i read somewhere that someone twincharged his mini, but instead of running the charge pipe over the top of the engine , he went stealth and ran it underneath and up. it might have been on a base cooper now that i think about it.

 

I just want to saythat from a stand point of someone who is pretty ignorant to all this stuff in general. Everyone's input has really helped me understand what the differences are between turbo and a super charger. Just a little thanks.

I will say that my vote right now will be for the M62, but that is based on that I've always liked the feel of a supercharger better than a turbo. But who knows, I may change my mind in the end. I've been known to do that a time or two.

 

There is one point that could use some emphasis, SpiderX refers to it as "vibe". I haven't driven a tc'ed car either so would like a little comparison by those that have, hopefully there is a beta that has. I 've had the MINI for 16 months and still have fun everytime I get in, no other car I've owned could do this. I believe it is because of the feedback from the sc, exhaust, handling, etc. I'm not sure (because I haven't tried a tc) but I don't want to lose the "fun factor" for hp.

 

the way i'm looking at it is that i want to keep the car as true to it's original form as possible. i don't want to cut up my firewall, i don't want to have the temptation of turning up the boost, etc. for me i've had my car since new (March 2003) i have around 49k on the odometer right now and i really would like to start some heavy modding now that i'm just about out of warranty. TC'ing, to me anyway, MAY compromise the life of my now older supercharger, in which case it'll end up costing me a new supercharger anyway. the m62 may provide me with a great base to start building from. (TC with the m62 perhaps ) and when i look at the list of parts prices here i don't count the things i already have in my car (intake, injectors, exhaust,TB, ECU) some of which i couldn't reuse on a TC kit, but i could reuse them on an m62 kit. i think both are cool as sh&#! it makes for really fun reading. and even more fun planning for the future of my car. Kudos to all the TC'ers and M62 folks who have already taken the plunge, you are making scaredy-cats like me much more confident in my future purchases.

 

wait... im confused...

does the m62 make about 230-255hp or so? I know people are still dynoing these things.

Afterall an s with an m45 and a head and exhuast intake, throttle body etc... can make 225+ with an intercooler more is possible...

so for 3200 bucks i can have another 20hp from an m62

 

Lots of valid points in there that I agree with....I am in the same vote. I have already purchased LOTS of bolt ons so to speak that will compliment the M62 but would have to be discarded if i went TC.

Seann

 

I am not sure....no one will post any info which is understandable. Its nice to see the vendors involved care enough about us and themselves enough to test these puppies sufficiently before release. From what SpiderX said in the other thread he does not have the power of a TC kit bolted on but as to what exactly I am not sure.

Seann

 

ya... those numbers were just a personal guess, based off of what i had read. I am not saying those are hard numbers or anything of the sort... I can't wait to see the hard numbers!

Good luck guys!